The best NM range for a single engine aircraft.

olasek said:
Sorry, it was a language carelessness on my part (English is my second language). What I meant was .. on a constrained budget.


You got a point. The market for twins is unbelievable, who know maybe you can pick up one for free :D. But somehow I don't see an 'entry level' pilot (his own words) flying a twin.
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I bought my first twin with a PP, 60hrs total time, no multi and no instrument rating (that's pretty entry level). I flew it for 10 years and over 1000 hrs.:dunno: Seemed to work out really well.
 
mrjones30 said:
I can only speak for myself,

I understand that driving and flying are totally two different activities but the longevity of flying and driving might be the same, (Sitting in one area for 6+ hours) as long as I am comfortable in the seats I will enjoy it just fine.
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The entrapment issues are obviously quite different, and moreso for your passengers. Are they firmly aboard on this boondoggle? Does your definition of fun match theirs? Are they fond of sitting in one narrow cramped-up little spot for hours while needing to pee, with sun beaming on them from every direction and bumping along in a 40-knot headwind?
 
wabower said:
The entrapment issues are obviously quite different, and moreso for your passengers. Are they firmly aboard on this boondoggle? Does your definition of fun match theirs? Are they fond of sitting in one narrow cramped-up little spot for hours while needing to pee, with sun beaming on them from every direction and bumping along in a 40-knot headwind?
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You have a good point there. My wife will probably not like the long flights but she will like the idea that we can get somewhere much faster than in a car. She can probably do about 3-4 hours at a time.
 
mrjones30 said:
You have a good point there. My wife will probably not like the long flights but she will like the idea that we can get somewhere much faster than in a car. She can probably do about 3-4 hours at a time.
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Think of it like this, the car and small plane on a long road trip are going to cause the same net effect suffering. In the plane it's more intense but shorter in duration.
 
mrjones30 said:
You have a good point there. My wife will probably not like the long flights but she will like the idea that we can get somewhere much faster than in a car. She can probably do about 3-4 hours at a time.
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Flying back from Sun 'n Fun. Looked in the back and my 13-year-old son was fast asleep. No different than a car ride :yesnod:
 
As you start evaluating and comparing airplanes in real life rather than listening to some of the rock-head advice rendered on internet forums, you'll find that many owners' answer to the question of "So why are you selling it?" is "Well, it's been a great airplane but I'm just not flying it enough."

If you peel back the banana, the underlying reason in many cases is "she said she doesn't give a shlt how we get there or if we get there or when we get there, she's not going to ride another inch in that hot little cramped-up sumbitch that melts her makeup and ruins her hairdo, and you can take it to the bank. Buster."

mrjones30 said:
You have a good point there. My wife will probably not like the long flights but she will like the idea that we can get somewhere much faster than in a car. She can probably do about 3-4 hours at a time.
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alfadog said:
You mean a 32R Lance? If you do not need six seats then you are buying more airplane than you need and hauling more weight around.
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Not really. If he's hauling four adults back and forth to Florida, he's going to need more baggage space than the typical 4-seat plane has. Pull the back two out of the Lance or 36 Bonanza, and you've got that space. Those two also have a nice big door in the back to load and unload all those people and bags.

I have an Arrow II and it is very comfortable for four "full-sized Americans" i.e. over 200 lb each. You are cutting into fuel a bit there but if your pax weigh closer to 170 average you should be OK with full tanks.
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But not with any significant amount of baggage, and if you offload fuel, you will not make PIE to HPN reliably with IFR reserves and only one fuel stop. And at 135 knots TAS, you're going to have trouble making 935 nm in under his specified 8 hours with any wind and even one fuel stop.
 
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Dr. O said:
You, the pilot, may be willing to do non stop 1000 mile runs, but I can comfortably predict that your passengers will agree to do it just once - going there...
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Read the thread. He already said one fuel stop is planned and expected.
 
wabower said:
If you're married to my wife, yes. Any trip of that length is problematic, simply due to the opportunity for exposure to varying weather patterns. I don't think dangerous is the most-descriptive term, but such trips are somewhat daunting, and can be very tiring and uncomfortable to all on board, especially those who like to pee in private.
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I saw quite a few people on You Tube videos who flew transatlantic flights in a single, (Mooney). I'm not sure if I'm going in that direction but what an experience that would be:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ixbzbFrlEk&feature=related
 
FWIW, took my 182 from ISZ to GNB in about 10.5 hrs into the wind, home in less. One fuel/comfort stop mid way. Give me tail winds and I've done SPF ISZ non stop, same from Lawton OK to Cincy.

Helps that Angie is sold on GA travel.
 
mrjones30 said:
You have a good point there. My wife will probably not like the long flights but she will like the idea that we can get somewhere much faster than in a car. She can probably do about 3-4 hours at a time.
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Reality will set in hard. We found out that our family (wife, three kids, dog(s)) can do 2.5 hours comfortably, but then we need at least an hour on the ground before we can go again. The penalty for over-doing it was screaming, projectile vomiting, nervousness and general unhappiness.

I fly an old Cherokee 6 (PA-32-260), which isn't fast (130kts), but it sure is comfortable. I wouldn't trade the comfort for speed.
 
wabower said:
As you start evaluating and comparing airplanes in real life rather than listening to some of the rock-head advice rendered on internet forums, you'll find that many owners' answer to the question of "So why are you selling it?" is "Well, it's been a great airplane but I'm just not flying it enough."

If you peel back the banana, the underlying reason in many cases is "she said she doesn't give a shlt how we get there or if we get there or when we get there, she's not going to ride another inch in that hot little cramped-up sumbitch that melts her makeup and ruins her hairdo, and you can take it to the bank. Buster."
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I dunno whos wife you are talking about but it sure isn't mine. My wife is the adventrous type like myself. That is why I married her, no sense in marrying someone that doesn't have some of the same common interests.
 
mrjones30 said:
I dunno whos wife you are talking about but it sure isn't mine. My wife is the adventrous type like myself. That is why I married her, no sense in marrying someone that doesn't have some of the same common interests.
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I figure if mine will do 700 mile days on the Harley with me, flying 4 hour legs in a rented Cherokee shouldn't be a problem. And if they are... well, that trip would be shorter AND more comfortable in, oh, say, a 182. Or a Bo. Or... :)
 
Potty breaks make twins nice, 520 hp is a good excess hp for things like climb and air conditioning.
 
Henning said:
Potty breaks make twins nice, 520 hp is a good excess hp for things like climb and air conditioning.
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With a Mustang, you can take the WW-2 era radios out and install a 2nd seat. Take the machine guns out and you have two very compact luggage compartments in the wings. The engine is watercooled so you don't have to worry about shock cooling as much, and the Rolls-Royce Merlin makes alot more than 520 horsepower! :rofl:
 
mrjones30 said:
Possibly two or three if I find something exciting to see on the way. :yesnod:
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So much for eight hours en route unless you go with something well over 200 knots like the Malibu or Mooney TLS/Bravo/Ovation, and the Mooneys won't carry the load plus fuel to do it in fewer stops with IFR reserves.
 
700-mile days weren't in my playbook on the Goldwing, but I found that 500-mile days were 5-7 legs of about 1.5 hours max. As it should be, or you risk missing a DQ that is deserving of a stop.

eB;890139]I figure if mine will do 700 mile days on the Harley with me, flying 4 hour legs in a rented Cherokee shouldn't be a problem. And if they are... well, that trip would be shorter AND more comfortable in, oh, say, a 182. Or a Bo. Or... :)[/QUOTE]
 
wabower said:
700-mile days weren't in my playbook on the Goldwing, but I found that 500-mile days were 5-7 legs of about 1.5 hours max. As it should be, or you risk missing a DQ that is deserving of a stop.
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:rolleyes2: We used to be GWTA members and did a lot of group rides... truer words were never spoken about the DQ thing. We never did get the whole stuffed animal thing either.

On our longest XC trip (Omaha - Charlotte - Charleston - Omaha) we figured out the factory seat was shot. That was agonizing by the time you hit the 500 mile mark. After that I got a Mustang seat, what a difference! We did Omaha to Co. Springs year before last. 600 miles, and my lovely bride said she could have done another couple of hours. It helps to have a trailer with cold drinks and snacks for the fuel stops.

She's never been in anything smaller than an ERJ-145, so it will be interesting to see how long it takes her to get used to a Cherokee or something of similar size. I told her it's the aviation equivalent of a motorcycle trip. So far she seems unconvinced. :dunno:
 
I bought a Corbin seat within a week of purchasing the bike. The pain immediately stopped. I left Dallas heading for Boston one fine fall day, but DW had whacked her pinkie toe on the furniture the previous night. By day's end it was swollen and throbbing, so we rehabbed at a friend's lake place in the Ozarks for a few days and came home.

If she liked the bike, I'm betting she will like the plane unless the in-flight sensations are a problem.

DaleB said:
:rolleyes2: We used to be GWTA members and did a lot of group rides... truer words were never spoken about the DQ thing. We never did get the whole stuffed animal thing either.

On our longest XC trip (Omaha - Charlotte - Charleston - Omaha) we figured out the factory seat was shot. That was agonizing by the time you hit the 500 mile mark. After that I got a Mustang seat, what a difference! We did Omaha to Co. Springs year before last. 600 miles, and my lovely bride said she could have done another couple of hours. It helps to have a trailer with cold drinks and snacks for the fuel stops.

She's never been in anything smaller than an ERJ-145, so it will be interesting to see how long it takes her to get used to a Cherokee or something of similar size. I told her it's the aviation equivalent of a motorcycle trip. So far she seems unconvinced. :dunno:
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wabower said:
I bought a Corbin seat within a week of purchasing the bike. The pain immediately stopped. I left Dallas heading for Boston one fine fall day, but DW had whacked her pinkie toe on the furniture the previous night. By day's end it was swollen and throbbing, so we rehabbed at a friend's lake place in the Ozarks for a few days and came home.

If she liked the bike, I'm betting she will like the plane unless the in-flight sensations are a problem.
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Maybe I'll point out that she's even less likely to fall out of the plane than she is to fall off the bike. :)
 
And the cabin air at altitude is much more comfortable and manageable than on the bike, that her view ahead is much better, and that her neck will sweat less without the helmet. And when you make a pit stop after the same time "on the road" you'll have covered 350 miles instead of 120. Sounds like a great opening argument to me.



DaleB said:
Maybe I'll point out that she's even less likely to fall out of the plane than she is to fall off the bike. :)
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I have a business trip I have to take the third week of June to Charlotte NC. I should have my ticket by then. What I'd really like to do is rent a Cherokee and fly there... KMLE to KJQF, with two stops. One for potty, one for fuel. I could do it with one stop, but I figure why not plan for two?

CFI says, get checked out in the Arrow and take it instead. I don't want to pay 2 hours per day minimum for the Arrow to sit on the ramp at JQF for 3-4 days, but may be it would be worth it. I dunno. Anyway, she says she'd be nervous about flying with me with so little time. Sigh. My plan is to treat it like 3 short XC flights instead of 1 long one, at least on the way out.

Told Wifey that it's not set in stone, one more commercial flight won't kill me... well, probably not anyway. I'll have her with me a few times before then, as soon as I have my cert... we'll see how that goes. I'm pushing to get finished up in May.
 
How much time do you have now? Finishing in 30 days during the spring in the midwest is a tad optimistic, but you might pull it off if the stars line up just right. Good luck, hope it works.

BTW the Charlotte trip is probably doable too, but you could be gone a lot longer than you think. If it's a business trip on a set schedule, I'd just take the tube and save the GA flying for something more enjoyable and less suspense-filled.

DaleB said:
I have a business trip I have to take the third week of June to Charlotte NC. I should have my ticket by then. What I'd really like to do is rent a Cherokee and fly there... KMLE to KJQF, with two stops. One for potty, one for fuel. I could do it with one stop, but I figure why not plan for two?

CFI says, get checked out in the Arrow and take it instead. I don't want to pay 2 hours per day minimum for the Arrow to sit on the ramp at JQF for 3-4 days, but may be it would be worth it. I dunno. Anyway, she says she'd be nervous about flying with me with so little time. Sigh. My plan is to treat it like 3 short XC flights instead of 1 long one, at least on the way out.

Told Wifey that it's not set in stone, one more commercial flight won't kill me... well, probably not anyway. I'll have her with me a few times before then, as soon as I have my cert... we'll see how that goes. I'm pushing to get finished up in May.
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I'm at about 18 hours now... but we're having a little run of good wx at the moment, and I'm on the schedule nearly every day. Since I telecommute it's not a problem to get out and fly 3-5 times a week if the wx holds. Usually at this time of year we'd be having a lot of rain and sustained VERY high winds, but this year has been very unusual. Today it's in the 70s, 4k wind and severe clear. Yesterday was near 90 and dead calm.

I'm not counting on making the trip... but it's a goal. Maybe what we'd call a "stretch goal" at work. I'll have to make a GA/mailing tube decision by around June 1 to let the corporate travel overlords make the reservations -- apparently we're all far too stupid to be able to do such things ourselves now. So that gives me until then to get my license and figure out if it's practical.

As for the (proposed) trip itself... I'd need to be out there by Monday afternoon at the latest. My plan would be to leave Saturday morning, giving a couple days of slack time in case we had to detour or wait out weather. I'd make the stops close enough to larger cities so if we needed to, we could tie down the plane and rent a car. I think I was looking at Rolla, MO and Bowling Green, KY - if we ran into widespread IMC in the way there's MCI, SDF, BNA and "180 and run for home".

The trip back would be even less time sensitive, we'd leave Friday morning and have until Monday to be home.
 
MSPAviator said:
With a Mustang, you can take the WW-2 era radios out and install a 2nd seat. Take the machine guns out and you have two very compact luggage compartments in the wings. The engine is watercooled so you don't have to worry about shock cooling as much, and the Rolls-Royce Merlin makes alot more than 520 horsepower! :rofl:
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Love it, when I can get one for <$100k and operate it for <$250hr, let me know.;) I could also add an NOs type system and spray in 1:1 with nitromethane and make more than the Merlin as well:D.
 
bbchien said:
Mooney M20J See the attachment. 1400 nm in 7.8 hours, on ninety gallons.
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I LOVED my Mooney 201. Unfortunately, I was uninsured and needed a very expensive operation. So, I just gave my interest to my partner rather than hanging on to payments.

But, mine only had 64 gallons or something like that.

OTOH, the operation saved my life. I had two more kids, and have owned four more airplanes since.
 
You are hauling non piot passengers, you need comfort, I'd consider nothing less than a 182/Dakota.

T210 would be my choice for that mission if it were my primary. Once or twice a year my 182 is perfectly adequate and costs less than a fire breathing retract.
 
Skylane81E said:
You are hauling non piot passengers, you need comfort, I'd consider nothing less than a 182/Dakota.

T210 would be my choice for that mission if it were my primary. Once or twice a year my 182 is perfectly adequate and costs less than a fire breathing retract.
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Can you show me a comparative of real world receipts that show a 182 as lower operating costs than a Bonanza? You are making general supposition there that doesn't necessarily prove out.
 
Henning said:
Can you show me a comparative of real world receipts that show a 182 as lower operating costs than a Bonanza? You are making general supposition there that doesn't necessarily prove out.
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Well I do know there are two clubs at KTMB. My club charges $55/hour dry for the 182. The other charges twice that for the Bonanzas. Both these clubs have been around many years and know what it costs to operate these aircraft. That tells me something.
 
Henning said:
Can you show me a comparative of real world receipts that show a 182 as lower operating costs than a Bonanza? You are making general supposition there that doesn't necessarily prove out.
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5 extra hours for the annual on a Bo, and still 3 more if the 182 is a retract.

But we are talking FG vs retract here.

I've never had to rig the gear on a 182, I've never had to replace drag link bushings on a 182, I've never had to repair a gear motor on a 182... I could go on but you get the idea. The Bo, or any other retract has more to maintain.


BUT you get something for it, greater efficiency in flight. If the goal of the plane is to travel then you can make up for that in Greater speed for the fuel burn. For me all I would be doing is blowing most of that extra expense as I'm just flying around quite often.
 
alfadog said:
Well I do know there are two clubs at KTMB. My club charges $55/hour dry for the 182. The other charges twice that for the Bonanzas. Both these clubs have been around many years and know what it costs to operate these aircraft. That tells me something.
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Everything else is supply and and this shouldn't be?:confused: That isn't even evidence.
 
Henning said:
Everything else is supply and and this shouldn't be?:confused: That isn't even evidence.
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Sorry, my CPA and notary are out of town on business so cannot provide the evidence you require.
 
Won't divulge details of customers bills but I will tell you that a 182 costs less to maintain than an Arrow. An arrow gets better MPG. It's up to the operator to pick the one that costs least for his/her usage.
 
Skylane81E said:
Won't divulge details of customers bills but I will tell you that a 182 costs less to maintain than an Arrow. An arrow gets better MPG. It's up to the operator to pick the one that costs least for his/her usage.
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And I am sure the Bonanza is more expensive to maintain than either.
 
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