The best NM range for a single engine aircraft.

[Ken Ibold]

I dunno whos wife you are talking about but it sure isn't mine. My wife is the adventrous type like myself. That is why I married her, no sense in marrying someone that doesn't have some of the same common interests.

Mine was too. Until she got fed up with the realities of no air conditioning, noise, and crappy seats common to most light planes and certainly all that are in your price range.

The first few years of having a Mooney 201 were great. We flew everywhere, taking the kids with us from the time they were two weeks old. Fast forward 20 years, 5 aircraft and hundreds of thousands of dollars later, and I will never own another airplane.

The big flaw in your plan is that light singles in that price range are simply not cut out for that mission. Up your budget by a factor of of 5 to 10 and it's another story. The PA-32s you can get for under 100K will be tired old dogs. The PA-28 and Cessna 1XX airframes are way too cramped for that mission, unless the other two are small children. I did many, many trips with 4 aboard in my 201, packed to the gills with car seats and diaper bags, coolers. But they grow fast.

Rather than blow the bucks now on a lousy solution, work on increasing your resources so you can buy a REAL solution, like a PA-46 or Cessna 340 or the like.

 

[Skylane81E]

And I am sure the Bonanza is more expensive to maintain than either.

I haven't worked on them enough to swear to it but from a maintenance expense standpoint Bos have the worst of each, big 6cylinder engine, retractable gear, electric flaps, fuel injection.

But it will haul more than an Arrow and out run a 182, haul more too depending on the exact model. If you need a Bo an arrow or 182 just won't do.

Edit due to iPad keyboard fails

 

[Ken Ibold]

Alpha,

Due to the fact we are both in Florida what does the routine maintenance costs look like in Miami for a Piper?

Routine maintenace on a PA-32 in the Tampa area is going to run you a minimum of $3,000 a year -- and that does not include the avionics work that will almost certainly be necessary due to the salt air. Initial insurance will be on the order of $3,500 a year until you have some time in type and an instrument rating, then it'll drop to around $2,000 a year. As you may know, hangars in Florida are typically $350-$500 a month, if you can find them at all.

Signed,
Former owner of two PA-32s in Florida, and literally wrote the book on used aircraft.

 

[Henning]

Sorry, my CPA and notary are out of town on business so cannot provide the evidence you require.

If you can't see that there are so many issues un answered in that picture that the comparison can't be taken seriously. The first one is the $50hr rental fee at the club for a 182. This is either the biggest POS 182 on the planet, or there is another supplementary revenue structure supporting the plane because that's less than a third to half (less than 1/5th of the $260 some an hour I was quoted to rent a 182 in SF last year) of what a 182 rents for anywhere else.

Bring real numbers and at least enough info on total cost of membership + hourly rates. It sounds like one is an equity club and the other is a non equity club. Also what's the difference in monthly dues?

Believe all the old wives tales you want, just remember that pilots are human, and with the rest of humanity, 80% of them are stupid. Of the 20% remaining, maybe 5% of them are mechanically minded people. Understand this and you realize that 'common wisdom' is almost always stupid and beatable.

 

[alfadog]

If you can't see that there are so many issues un answered in that picture that the comparison can't be taken seriously. The first one is the $50hr rental fee at the club for a 182. This is either the biggest POS 182 on the planet, or there is another supplementary revenue structure supporting the plane because that's less than a third to half (less than 1/5th of the $260 some an hour I was quoted to rent a 182 in SF last year) of what a 182 rents for anywhere else.

Bring real numbers and at least enough info on total cost of membership + hourly rates. It sounds like one is an equity club and the other is a non equity club. Also what's the difference in monthly dues?

A well-maintained 1980 182Q with Garmin stack vs a well-maintained 1979 A-36 with Garmin stack. Equity or non-equity doesn't factor in, it does not matter who owns. Fixed monthly expenses again favor the 182 by a factor of 10 but the Bo is hangared and insurance is higher so I did not ding you with that one.

$260/hour DRY???

 

[DaleB]

This is either the biggest POS 182 on the planet, or there is another supplementary revenue structure supporting the plane because that's less than a third to half (less than 1/5th of the $260 some an hour I was quoted to rent a 182 in SF last year) of what a 182 rents for anywhere else.

Wow... the local flying club rents theirs for well under half that wet. 1980 182-Q, GNS430, long range tanks, STOL kit, nice paint & interior. A buddy who flies it regularly says it's pretty nice. Is that $260/hr 182 a new one? I cold maybe see it if it's brand new or only a few years old.

 

[Henning]

I haven't worked on them enough to swear to it but from a maintenance expense standpoint Bos have the worst of each, big 6cylinder engine, retractable gear, electric flaps, fuel injection.

But it will haul more than an Arrow and out run a 182, haul more too depending on the exact model. If you need a Bo an arrow or 182 just won't do.

Edit due to iPad keyboard fails

10 years of a Travel Air (same airframe as a Bo w/ 2 Lyc O-360s) cost me nothing in landing gear maint, it never failed or required anything besides oleo strut maint and annual gear swing, $75. The gear up saves way more than $75 a year in fuel, way more if you travel, 20+ kts on the same fuel between a 470 powered Bo and 182. In a 1000 hrs I never even put tires or brakes on. Flaps gave me no problems either. I did have a cowl flap motor fail and they are as expensive as all hell, but I just cleaned it and put $1.35 worth of brushes in it and it was good to go. The IO 470 is probably the best aircraft engine smaller than an R-985 and bigger than an 0-200. Fuel injection typically costs $2000 every 10 years or so and saves about $18+ hr in leaning ability over a carb and runs better, so that's pretty much a break even or slight advantage to FI.

 

[poadeleted20]

I'm at about 18 hours now... but we're having a little run of good wx at the moment, and I'm on the schedule nearly every day.

Don't change horses at this point of the stream crossing. If your instructor wants to build retractable time, let him do it at someone else's expense.

 

[Henning]

Don't change horses at this point of the stream crossing. If your instructor wants to build retractable time, let him do it at someone else's expense.

I don't agree with that one bit. Experience as many different planes as you can so you learn how to fly, not how to operate one specific machine.
That early retract time counts towards your initial insurance as well. As the ratio of retract to non retract time goes up, your initial retract insurance rates go up. I know a guy with 750 hrs in DA 20s and 40s, he got hit for $7500 checking on insuring a <$100k Bonanza. I bought a twin at 60 hrs for $40k and got insured for $1100.

 

[Skylane81E]

I'd argue you got lucky, sample size of one less than ideal.

 

[alfadog]

CFI says, get checked out in the Arrow and take it instead...

Complex endorsement so you can take your first long xc as a new pilot?? Doesn't make a lot of sense to me either.

 

[DaleB]

Don't change horses at this point of the stream crossing. If your instructor wants to build retractable time, let him do it at someone else's expense.

No, he's talking about getting the complex training/endorsement after I get my license but before the long XC trip I want to do. I wouldn't want to change right now. My immediate concerns are to finish getting my license, THEN worry about complex, HP, etc. I'm also thinking that taking off on an 800 mile XC as my first significant post-endorsement experience in a complex airplane... meh... probably not the best idea. The extra 30K or so cruise speed would be nice, but...

 

[Henning]

I'd argue you got lucky, sample size of one less than ideal.

You can argue what you want, but I believe we make our luck by by application of knowledge and thought. My statistical sample is far greater than one, and I qualify the owner/operators abilities and knowledge when comparing. I don't count the results of idiots the same as the results of the competent.

 

[alfadog]

No, he's talking about getting the complex training/endorsement after I get my license but before the long XC trip I want to do. I wouldn't want to change right now. My immediate concerns are to finish getting my license, THEN worry about complex, HP, etc. I'm also thinking that taking off on an 800 mile XC as my first significant post-endorsement experience in a complex airplane... meh... probably not the best idea. The extra 30K or so cruise speed would be nice, but...

Give yourself a chance to get a few xc's under your belt without the added stress of the complex. Once you feel that you can comfortably handle things in the basic trainer then move to the complex if you want to. No hurry. Just fly and enjoy!

 

[Henning]

No, he's talking about getting the complex training/endorsement after I get my license but before the long XC trip I want to do. I wouldn't want to change right now. My immediate concerns are to finish getting my license, THEN worry about complex, HP, etc. I'm also thinking that taking off on an 800 mile XC as my first significant post-endorsement experience in a complex airplane... meh... probably not the best idea. The extra 30K or so cruise speed would be nice, but...

I had done my PP X/Cs in a 172 RG, a 182 and an Arrow. I was checked out for rental in 18 airplanes (multiple 172s, PA 28s and 150/2 available) when the DE signed me off with a total of 41.5 hrs.

 

[DaleB]

I don't agree with that one bit. Experience as many different planes as you can so you learn how to fly, not how to operate one specific machine.
That early retract time counts towards your initial insurance as well. As the ratio of retract to non retract time goes up, your initial retract insurance rates go up. I know a guy with 750 hrs in DA 20s and 40s, he got hit for $7500 checking on insuring a <$100k Bonanza. I bought a twin at 60 hrs for $40k and got insured for $1100.

I am certainly not disagreeing with you there. I want to be able to fly anything within a range -- I don't have any plans for multi, but I'd like to be able to fly pretty much any single regardless of HP, placement of third wheel, prop, etc.

That said, my first goal for right now is to get that piece of plastic. I can get CFI time to get checked out in a 172, get my complex & HP endorsements, tailwheel, all that after I have my ticket. Right now I don't want to burn time adjusting to new airplanes if I don't have to.

Right now it's off to do more x-wind landings. We did T&Gs yesterday with no wind and it was very positive. Today started out calm, but right now it's 32017G23KT for runway 30. Should be entertaining.

 

[Skylane81E]

You can argue what you want, but I believe we make our luck by by application of knowledge and thought. My statistical sample is far greater than one, and I qualify the owner/operators abilities and knowledge when comparing. I don't count the results of idiots the same as the results of the competent.

Well then your travel air against my 182, 500hrs and all in a maintenance bill of <$5,000. Annuals and avionics breakdowns included. Most of that cost is a new set of mags, purchased because I wanted to ditch the then 25 year old mags.

Discussing the extreme low cost examples as if they are the rule will only burn others who end up in a more normal situation. It can be done by the right person with the right plane but you and I are the exception.

 

[denverpilot]

If you can't see that there are so many issues un answered in that picture that the comparison can't be taken seriously. The first one is the $50hr rental fee at the club for a 182. This is either the biggest POS 182 on the planet, or there is another supplementary revenue structure supporting the plane because that's less than a third to half (less than 1/5th of the $260 some an hour I was quoted to rent a 182 in SF last year) of what a 182 rents for anywhere else.

Anyone renting out a 182 at $260/hr unless it's a new one, is making a lot of money.

There's an SR-22 GTS on the line at a local club for less than that at $259.

C-182Q is $146. There are even cheaper 182s than that one on the field, but I don't know if they're well-maintained. This example aircraft is mechanically sound and cosmetically a "6" or "7" on the interior.

 

[Henning]

I am certainly not disagreeing with you there. I want to be able to fly anything within a range -- I don't have any plans for multi, but I'd like to be able to fly pretty much any single regardless of HP, placement of third wheel, prop, etc.

That said, my first goal for right now is to get that piece of plastic. I can get CFI time to get checked out in a 172, get my complex & HP endorsements, tailwheel, all that after I have my ticket. Right now I don't want to burn time adjusting to new airplanes if I don't have to.

Right now it's off to do more x-wind landings. We did T&Gs yesterday with no wind and it was very positive. Today started out calm, but right now it's 32017G23KT for runway 30. Should be entertaining.

Why is a piece of plastic more important than competence? What's the greater value?

 

[Skylane81E]

Anyone renting out a 182 at $260/hr unless it's a new one, is making a lot of money.

There's an SR-22 GTS on the line at a local club for less than that at $259.

C-182Q is $146. There are even cheaper 182s than that one on the field, but I don't know if they're well-maintained. This example aircraft is mechanically sound and cosmetically a "6" or "7" on the interior.

Ours goes for 86 dry. Demand for it has it actually priced above our arrow though...

 

[Henning]

Anyone renting out a 182 at $260/hr unless it's a new one, is making a lot of money.

There's an SR-22 GTS on the line at a local club for less than that at $259.

C-182Q is $146. There are even cheaper 182s than that one on the field, but I don't know if they're well-maintained. This example aircraft is mechanically sound and cosmetically a "6" or "7" on the interior.

It was within a couple years old G-1000 model, the rest of your prices are in line with the $100-$150 (2-3 times the $50 quoted) that I am used to seeing. I can operate a 470 powered Bonanza @ 140kts for <$150hr, no worries.

 

[Henning]

Ours goes for 86 dry. Demand for it has it actually priced above our arrow though...

So, you pay more for rental and fuel for the 182 vs Arrow, and a Bonanza is cheaper to operate at 140 kts than an Arrow.

 

[Skylane81E]

So, you pay more for rental and fuel for the 182 vs Arrow, and a Bonanza is cheaper to operate at 140 kts than an Arrow.

The right Bo, for a while, sure. The right arrow will be cheaper yet. Simple equation, more airplane=more money you can only out run the law of averages for so long.

I'd go for a Navion before a Bo anyway:wink2:

 

[poadeleted20]

I don't agree with that one bit.

My opinion is based from my perspective as a CFI who has dealt with this situation. When you've don't some instructing and run into this a few times, I'm sure you'll agree with me.

 

[poadeleted20]

No, he's talking about getting the complex training/endorsement after I get my license but before the long XC trip I want to do.

Nothing wrong with that as long as it's something you want to do anyway and will be able to complete before you make that trip -- they may require 5 or 10 hours in the retractable before they let you take it alone.

I wouldn't want to change right now. My immediate concerns are to finish getting my license, THEN worry about complex, HP, etc.

Good thinking.

I'm also thinking that taking off on an 800 mile XC as my first significant post-endorsement experience in a complex airplane... meh... probably not the best idea. The extra 30K or so cruise speed would be nice, but...

Again, good thinking. Stick with a familiar aircraft while pressing into unfamiliar territory.

 

[Henning]

The right Bo, for a while, sure. The right arrow will be cheaper yet. Simple equation, more airplane=more money you can only out run the law of averages for so long.

I'd go for a Navion before a Bo anyway:wink2:

Equal condition airplanes the Bo will be typically cheaper than the Arrow. The Arrow is less aerodynamically efficient and at 140kts will burn through more Engine money in 2000 hrs operating an IO 360 than a Bo will operating 140kts with an IO 470. The gear on the Bo is simple electric motor with a worm and quadrant gear that runs a lever and rod gear system. Grease it a couple of times a year and change the brushes in the motor for a few dollars once a decade. The Arrow has a hydraulic gear system, and unless you get your Prestolite pumps from Napa (They have the exact same pump for Mercruiser drives through Sierra), you'll spend a few thousand a decade on pumps and hoses.

Marty Bevil on the Red Board went from the nicest Arrow (180hp & 140kts cruise with 3 people and my luggage) to the nicest F33 Bo I have seen. I told him the same thing, he didn't believe me at first either, then he tried it and found out I was right.

The thing you are right about is what you start with. The outrunning the law of averages is not a solid statement though because you can beat the averages with advanced consideration. The average pilot is as good of an equipment operator as the average driver, they have no mechanical knowledge or back ground and they have no clue as to what breaks things and what preserves things. If you follow the law of averages, you will be doomed to an average result. Average results in aviation suck, so I work hard at beating the averages. The biggest average cost issue to break is speed and running ROP. ROP & speed costs too much money in valves and cylinders as well as plugs and fuel. It's the nickle and dimes that eat you lunch in aviation.

 

[Skylane81E]

For the same speed I'll buy it, but trade that speed off of the arrow or run the Bo just as hard and as you said, speed costs. I can run my 182 at 145kts or even a bit faster if I choose, but a 210 would be cheaper for that mission.

Good friend traded a 182 for a T210 and found his cost per mile to be nearly identical, but with nearly a 50kt speed advantage to the 210.

His mission was for a XC machine, so he made the switch, when he was just buzzing around like he was in the 182 the 210 would have eaten him alive (by comparison) when the mission was to fly around an hour after work with the occasional trip.

 

[denverpilot]

It was within a couple years old G-1000 model, the rest of your prices are in line with the $100-$150 (2-3 times the $50 quoted) that I am used to seeing. I can operate a 470 powered Bonanza @ 140kts for <$150hr, no worries.

The $50 quoted was DRY. You seem to have missed that. At 13 gallons per hour, $5/gal that's $115/hr wet. About $10-20 hour lower than I would expect to see for a 182.

 

[Henning]

For the same speed I'll buy it, but trade that speed off of the arrow or run the Bo just as hard and as you said, speed costs. I can run my 182 at 145kts or even a bit faster if I choose, but a 210 would be cheaper for that mission.

That's what I meant by it's about disciple, not equipment. The problem with most people, especially pilots, is they don't have the discipline to go slow. Now don't get me wrong, go as fast as you want and have it cost whatever you want it to, but don't turn around at me and project your astronomical operating costs of an ill bought, cheap-as-can-be purchased, hard flow, deferred maintenance machine on to my carefully selected, gently operated and and personally fussed over machine.

There are so many variables and factors, especially when selecting from used planes, all the crap that is espoused as 'common wisdom' is mostly just complaining from numbnut operators tearing up their own gear because they're clueless as to what's actually going on with the machine and what makes them break.

In a world where 80% of people are stupid, if you don't learn to think for yourself, most everything you do will be stupid as well.

 

[Foxhole]

Give yourself a chance to get a few xc's under your belt without the added stress of the complex. Once you feel that you can comfortably handle things in the basic trainer then move to the complex if you want to. No hurry. Just fly and enjoy!

I completely agree.
When I finished my PP I was eager to use my skills. I quickly discovered that long VFR trips are tough to accomplish on a fixed schedule. You are correct to plan on a large window for travel. Weather will bite you more often than you want.. Many say that your plastic card is a licence to learn and aviation can be very unforgiving of bad choices. I would stay on the conservative side until you get allot more hours in your book. When you get your IFR you will be much better prepared for those long trips. To me XC are comparable to a road trip in a 130 kt 74 VW bug. Small cramped and noisy. Sure it can be done if your passengers are not expecting a all day ride in a Chevy Suburban. For my family wife and two kids in a GA single for more than 3hr is impractical. Keep it simple for a while and enjoy what you have worked so hard to achieve.

 

[DaleB]

Why is a piece of plastic more important than competence? What's the greater value?

Where did I ever say the certificate was more important than competence? More important right now than extra type instruction and endorsements, yes. It's not like I'm looking for the cert in the bottom of my box of Count Chocula, I'm actually earning it. I don't have big plans to build time and pick up extra cash ferrying derelicts, so I can get the other stuff at my leisure. I've waited several decades for the ticket, though, so perhaps you'll humor me if I don't want to delay its arrival any more than necessary.

If I train in one type and earn my cert, I'll be just as competent in that type as if I bounce from one to another during training, it will just take less time. I can get instruction and endorsements after my cert arrives just as easily as beforehand. The big difference is I'll be able to do more of what I want to do in the first place... fly, and do so without the kid in the right seat soaking up what I could be spending on avgas or socking away for my first airplane.

 

[wabower]

Would the cost for a O-520 180 be about the same?

Can you show me a comparative of real world receipts that show a 182 as lower operating costs than a Bonanza? You are making general supposition there that doesn't necessarily prove out.

 

[wabower]

It's better than anything you have produced. But then again hot air isn't hard to beat.

Everything else is supply and and this shouldn't be? That isn't even evidence.

 

[Henning]

Would the cost for a O-520 180 be about the same?

Yep, but higher since it has a 520 instead of a 470.

 

[Patrick Wahle]

I completely agree.
When I finished my PP I was eager to use my skills. I quickly discovered that long VFR trips are tough to accomplish on a fixed schedule. You are correct to plan on a large window for travel. Weather will bite you more often than you want.. Many say that your plastic card is a licence to learn and aviation can be very unforgiving of bad choices. I would stay on the conservative side until you get allot more hours in your book. When you get your IFR you will be much better prepared for those long trips. To me XC are comparable to a road trip in a 130 kt 74 VW bug. Small cramped and noisy. Sure it can be done if your passengers are not expecting a all day ride in a Chevy Suburban. For my family wife and two kids in a GA single for more than 3hr is impractical. Keep it simple for a while and enjoy what you have worked so hard to achieve.

Well, general aviation aircrafts are the fastest mean of transportation for people who are not in a rush...

 

[Patrick Wahle]

I just realized that this thread is more than 5 years old but I just wanted to mention the Socata TB20 and 21 Trinidad. At 65% and 12,000 ft (no head winds) the range is 1,100 NM (full fuel and non turbo).

 

[murphey]

Does anybody know what type of single engine piston aircraft has the best NM range? Also "Reasonably priced"? I know factors come into play like weather conditions, power...etc. Under perfect conditions.


Thank you in advance for your input!

I really prefer either the Pilatus or the F-16.

 

[airheadpenguin]

I'll throw in a PA-24 with tip tanks (120 gal), 150kt cruise 12gph at 10k and an airframe built around if it fits it ships

 

[tspear]

Velocity and a Lancair IV could make it. The Lancair would be out of the price range.
The Velocity would be the standard model and cruise close to 165 KTAS.

Tim

 

[mtuomi]

I had done my PP X/Cs in a 172 RG, a 182 and an Arrow. I was checked out for rental in 18 airplanes (multiple 172s, PA 28s and 150/2 available) when the DE signed me off with a total of 41.5 hrs.

Don't you just miss this guy?