The best NM range for a single engine aircraft.

[Anthony]

With four people, actually even with less, you're going to need to plan a rest/fuel stop for that distance. It is just a reality, and opens up other possibilities in aircraft. Four hours is about my max, but I usually plan for three hours when going long distances.

 

[ronnieh]

Henning, not the time element. Not enough engines for me. I would have said the same thing if it was touch and goes. Too dangerous for me but, not others.

 

[alfadog]

Yes, I definitely wanted to do a fuel stop. I fly as a passenger, (Regular Commercial) from Orlando to Seattle all the time without having to use the bathroom. I try to avoid it at all costs!!

In that case, you do not need "the best NM range". The best of anything sacrifices other things. Range typically sacrifices speed. Usable load will also be affected. PIE > HPN is 913 NM with a jog near JAX. If you break that in half for fuel in SC or NC and leave yourself an hour reserve you only need 600 NM range. Use any added range to avoid buying fuel in NY

My suggestion, decide what you need in the way of speed, load, etc. first. How new do you want? Most anything you choose will have that 600 NM. How about a newer Tiger, Mooney, or a 114 Commander? SR20? Since you have up to $100k. My $40k Arrow will do the job at over 140 KT at 9 gph.

edit: Work out the various parameters including what you are willing to pay by the hour or the mile to fly this airplane and how much maintenance you are willing to pay for.

 

[steingar]

Take the tube. I just did a flight somewhat similar to that. It's only fun once.

 

[poadeleted20]

Tango XR Advertised at 2100SM. I can attest that 1800NM is definitely doable. Only two seats though.

http://www.teamtangoaircraft.com/site/our-aircraft/tango-xr/

BTW... They also make a four seater (the Foxtrot) and advertise 1800SM.

First, these are kits. Second, the XR has only two seats, and there's no way the Foxtrot 4 is coming in under $100K even without labor cost.

 

[poadeleted20]

Yes, I definitely wanted to do a fuel stop. I fly as a passenger, (Regular Commercial) from Orlando to Seattle all the time without having to use the bathroom. I try to avoid it at all costs!!

Then the second paragraph of my post applies -- pretty much any of the HP retractables mentioned will do it comfortably in under 8 hours, and many can be found under $100K.

No doubt some will suggest the 200HP Mooneys, but they are slower than the 260-300 HP planes I suggested, and with any headwind at all, your one-stop/8-hour requirement will be in jeopardy if you want IFR reserves. The reduced power also affects load-carrying capability, and you may find even without adverse winds, you can't carry enough fuel to make it in one stop if you have four adults and baggage aboard.

 

[Tom-D]

Then the second paragraph of my post applies -- pretty much any of the HP retractables mentioned will do it comfortably in under 8 hours, and many can be found under $100K.

No doubt some will suggest the 200HP Mooneys, but they are slower than the 260-300 HP planes I suggested, and with any headwind at all, your one-stop/8-hour requirement will be in jeopardy if you want IFR reserves. The reduced power also affects load-carrying capability, and you may find even without adverse winds, you can't carry enough fuel to make it in one stop if you have four adults and baggage aboard.

What he is asking for is an aircraft that can do 4 pax, full fuel, and 900 miles. not many production aircraft will do that, in his market, add any weather and they all go away.

Look at the weather this week, know any single you'd want to be trying to make the trip ?

 

[Mike5250]

It's not too much of a problem for me. I can drive from Tampa FL to Key West in 7 hrs and 30 Mins only stopping for gas and ENJOY it. My wife might not though lol!!

Well once you pick out a plane that trip to key west will be a breeze and only 1.5-2 hours! If you do this FL-NY trip non stop with the family they might not think the idea is too cool.

I've done PA- southwest florida in an sr20 and was pretty exhausted by the end of the day. Under 7 hours on the hobbs and a break for lunch on the way.

 

[Anymouse]

First, these are kits. Second, the XR has only two seats, and there's no way the Foxtrot 4 is coming in under $100K even without labor cost.

Um... What's your point???

 

[poadeleted20]

Um... What's your point???

The OP want to buy a plane that carries four and costs less than $100K. Your suggestions don't even come close to fitting those requirements.

 

[Anymouse]

The OP want to buy a plane that carries four and costs less than $100K. Your suggestions don't even come close to fitting those requirements.

First post made no mention of seats or price, which is what I responded to, but I did mention the fact that it was a two seater after seeing his post. Or did you conveniently miss that part. I didn't mention the finished price of either plane since it really depends on what the builder wants to put into it. Getting a used engine and prop with steam gauges can get the price under $100k. Bargains are out there for those that want to scrounge.

 

[olasek]

but I did mention the fact that it was a two seater after seeing his post. .

Yeah, but you did not mention it was a kit. This is huge because frankly rookies who come here and ask about aircraft prices almost always mean a finished product. There is nothing wrong about advertising some kit but it should have been stated (for a complete rookie) with bold letters that all you get for the price are parts.

 

[poadeleted20]

Yeah, but you did not mention it was a kit. This is huge because frankly rookies who come here and ask about aircraft prices almost always mean a finished product. There is nothing wrong about advertising some kit but it should have been stated (for a complete rookie) with bold letters that all you get for the price are parts.

Yeah -- those most frightening of words to any parent: "Some assembly required."

 

[mrjones30]

Yeah, but you did not mention it was a kit. This is huge because frankly rookies who come here and ask about aircraft prices almost always mean a finished product. There is nothing wrong about advertising some kit but it should have been stated (for a complete rookie) with bold letters that all you get for the price are parts.

It's true, I didn't mention if I wanted a finished product or not. Kits are very interesting as well. I would need to find a builder or help someone build but it would be a great learning experience.

 

[mrjones30]

The Mooney looks like the plane for the job. Has anybody flown one before, is it a comfortable plane to fly?, my height is 6 1 1/2 and I weight 220 lbs.

 

[poadeleted20]

The Mooney looks like the plane for the job. Has anybody flown one before, is it a comfortable plane to fly?, my height is 6 1 1/2 and I weight 220 lbs.

At that size, you should probably try one on for size before you go further. You may also find that the 200HP Mooneys will not do what you want due to load limitations, and your passengers may find the back seat rather cramped for such a trip. The big-engine Mooneys would probably be a much better fit.

 

[Anymouse]

Yeah, but you did not mention it was a kit. This is huge because frankly rookies who come here and ask about aircraft prices almost always mean a finished product. There is nothing wrong about advertising some kit but it should have been stated (for a complete rookie) with bold letters that all you get for the price are parts.

But I DID provide a link, and others had mentioned kit planes as well, not just me. After clicking on the link, if a person couldn't figure out it was a kit plane, then there's no hope.

It's true, I didn't mention if I wanted a finished product or not. Kits are very interesting as well. I would need to find a builder or help someone build but it would be a great learning experience.

There are several kit manufacturers that are offering builder's assistance in various forms. At least two that I'm aware of have their builder's assist programs approved by the FAA as far as the 51% rule is concerned. Team Tango is one of them. The other is the 2-weeks to taxi program offered by Glassair. As Ron alluded to earlier, you'll be paying labor if you use a builder assist program.

 

[COFlyBoy]

The Mooney looks like the plane for the job. Has anybody flown one before, is it a comfortable plane to fly?, my height is 6 1 1/2 and I weight 220 lbs.

I fly with my buddy in his M-20J (200 HP) fairly often as safety pilot. I am 6 1 3/4 and 190 lbs. I fit, but it is not comfortable. I end up with my left arm on the back of the pilot seat the whole time, like I'm gonna put a move on my buddy. Leg room and head room are OK, but shoulder space is limited. It is not a 4 adult airplane either. He has to leave fuel if he wants to carry 4 folks.

Take a long ride in one before you commit.

I think you're needing more of a PA-32 or a A-36 size airplane. They can actually carry 4 adults and full fuel. And they have room for shoulders. The PA-32 actually has an aisle between the seats (a very narrow aisle, but still you're not touching the person next to you for 4 hours straight)

 

[mrjones30]

I fly with my buddy in his M-20J (200 HP) fairly often as safety pilot. I am 6 1 3/4 and 190 lbs. I fit, but it is not comfortable. I end up with my left arm on the back of the pilot seat the whole time, like I'm gonna put a move on my buddy. Leg room and head room are OK, but shoulder space is limited. It is not a 4 adult airplane either. He has to leave fuel if he wants to carry 4 folks.

Take a long ride in one before you commit.

I think you're needing more of a PA-32 or a A-36 size airplane. They can actually carry 4 adults and full fuel. And they have room for shoulders. The PA-32 actually has an aisle between the seats (a very narrow aisle, but still you're not touching the person next to you for 4 hours straight)

Thanks for the comment. What type of Piper Arrow 32? I have seen some in photos that look nothing like you mentioned, (Aisle between the seats). How much do they cost?

 

[dell30rb]

How about a Cessna 182RG. Not the economy or speed of the mooney, but they cruise about 155kts and will get you places. Large load capacity, comfortable and plenty of room. Maintenance is straightforward and almost every mechanic knows how to work on one. Well equipped planes sell for well under 100K.

Not to mention that the 182 has a reputation as a 'pilot's best friend' and the OP, as a newer pilot will find it an easy transition from a trainer as opposed to a mooney, long ez, or whatever.

 

[poadeleted20]

Thanks for the comment. What type of Piper Arrow 32?

Not a 4-seat 200HP Piper Arrow (PA28R) but a PA32R -- bigger, six-seat, 300HP models, including the PA32R-300 Lance (shorter Hershey-bar wing) and PA32R-301 Saratoga RG (longer tapered wing).

How much do they cost?

Depends on age, equipment, and condition. Google a bit and you'll find plenty of examples, including some in your price range.

And as I said in my first post, a Cessna 182RG will probably suffice, but for those long missions with four adults and baggage, the larger cabin of the PA32R, or BE36 will probably make everyone happier. In the middle you'll find the smaller cabin 260-285HP retractable singles like the BE33/35, Cessna 210, 250/260 Comanche, and Bellanca Viking.

 

[Henning]

The real question is, 'why a single?'

 

[poadeleted20]

The real question is, 'why a single?'

Why not?

Seriously, I'm thinking any number of reasons, starting with cost (both initial buy-in and operating cost) and pilot requirements (more training, more skill, more proficiency). These are the sorts of reasons why Cirrus has sold 4000 planes in the last 12 years, and while we've seen a disturbing number of Cirrus accidents, they haven't been related to engine failures, and most of the accidents that did occur would have had no different result with a second engine except maybe being worse.

 

[olasek]

The real question is, 'why a single?'

Why would you suggest to look at a twin to someone who is clearly financially challenged and threw around $100K as a metric of a 'reasonable' price.

 

[Henning]

Why not?

Seriously, I'm thinking any number of reasons, starting with cost (both initial buy-in and operating cost) and pilot requirements (more training, more skill, more proficiency). These are the sorts of reasons why Cirrus has sold 4000 planes in the last 12 years, and while we've seen a disturbing number of Cirrus accidents, they haven't been related to engine failures, and most of the accidents that did occur would have had no different result with a second engine except maybe being worse.

SR-22 is a great example. My plane w/2 near new engines & glass can be bought for less than half the price of a runout SR-22 and my insurance is $1700yr, what's the annual insurance on an SR 22? The SR 22 is the only HP single on the market that provides some option besides eating rocks when the kit s-its itself. My plane uses 30% more fuel for the speed of a Cirrus if I slow down to its speed. For the differences in insurance cost alone will pay for a good chunk of that fuell cost difference.

 

[W. Stewart]

Cessna 210 with long range tanks.

Wells

 

[wabower]

Because he's been trying to get out from under it for a year or so?

Why would you suggest to look at a twin to someone who is clearly financially challenged and threw around $100K as a metric of a 'reasonable' price.

 

[wabower]

Or without. No need to spend money for range he doesn't want or need.

Cessna 210 with long range tanks.

Wells

 

[Henning]

Okay, I got it. I would like to go to Saint Petersburg Florida to Westchester County New York in under 8 hours. Myself, (Pilot) Co Pilot and two other people so a total of 4 passengers.

Airport code PIE (Saint Petersburg FL)

Airport code HPN (Westchester County NY)

Distance 1040 Miles

As long as you don't have all heavy people and a bunch of luggage any of the 260hp+ planes will make that happen in around 6 hrs zero wind,

 

[denverpilot]

How about a Cessna 182RG. Not the economy or speed of the mooney, but they cruise about 155kts and will get you places. Large load capacity, comfortable and plenty of room. Maintenance is straightforward and almost every mechanic knows how to work on one. Well equipped planes sell for well under 100K.

Not to mention that the 182 has a reputation as a 'pilot's best friend' and the OP, as a newer pilot will find it an easy transition from a trainer as opposed to a mooney, long ez, or whatever.

The hard part in the 182RG market is finding one that wasn't beat to death as a Commercial checkride trainer.

They're not flown or maintained as "lovingly" as most (not all) privately owned ones.

The one I know of here locally is maintained well but has been through the hellish quality problems with cylinder replacements and ADs and you can't count on it being available at any particular time with the mixture of constant in and out of the shop for those issues combined with the general complexity of maintaining a retract flown by too many hamfisted folks who just want to pass a checkride and get out of the "more expensive" aircraft as soon as they can.

"Full Rental Power" plus lots of folks landing it hard, taxiing to fast for the weaker gear, and generally beating it up... It got pulled from the local club and I don't think it's coming back. The leaseback numbers were a nightmare.

Fix one up with lots of cash, treat it right, the R182 is a solid nice travelling machine. But so many of them have been "rode hard and put away wet", it's a struggle to find a cherry one.

 

[mrjones30]

Why would you suggest to look at a twin to someone who is clearly financially challenged and threw around $100K as a metric of a 'reasonable' price.

No disrespect to you but why would I as a beginner spend a lot of money owning an airplane that I don't even know if owning will be right for me or not? I want to start by owning a plane that I'm going to use as an entry level pilot. I already calculated cost involved, Hangar, Maintenance, Unexpected costs...etc all of this is outside the 100k. Calling someone financially challenged but wants to buy an airplane is a bit of an oxymoron...don't you think?

 

[wabower]

Any airplane ownership is an oxymoron.

No disrespect to you but why would I as a beginner spend a lot of money owning an airplane that I don't even know if owning will be right for me or not? I want to start by owning a plane that I'm going to use as an entry level pilot. I already calculated cost involved, Hangar, Maintenance, Unexpected costs...etc all of this is outside the 100k. Calling someone financially challenged but wants to buy an airplane is a bit of an oxymoron...don't you think?

 

[Henning]

Why would you suggest to look at a twin to someone who is clearly financially challenged and threw around $100K as a metric of a 'reasonable' price.

??? $100k buys plenty of twins that fill his mission, $100k buys a few singles that will. For the same quality of plane the twin sells for half the price. You can buy a $70k Baron that will be lower time and half the price of the Bonanza that will take 4 adults 900 nm w/ reserves. $70k buys a hell of a lot of fuel and maintenance. If you get a turboed Travel Air or Twin Comanche, you can even run cheaper than HP Singles and faster than the NA HP twins above 12'500. I had so much fun with the 55 Baron guys. One time just on top at FL210 climbing over a system X/C I had the opportunity to handily overtake a 55 Baron on the same route doing same as I (only I could hold 25" to FL280). I passed him on altitude close enough to give him one of these: I was also close enough to see him:

 

[Piloto]

I fly from KFXE to TJIG (900nm) twice a year in a Mooney 201 with long range tanks (100 gallons). On the average the flight takes 6 hours, cruising at 160kts at 11,000ft. I do it non stop to avoid Customs and save time. When traveling with may wife she seats on the back seats with a portable DVD player and an iPod. The back seats can be reclined fully horizontal for easy sleep. Relieving has never been a problem since I carry a couple bottles and blankets. We also carry snacks and sandwiches for lunch. I have HF onboard to maintain contact with ham operators and New York Oceanic. At times these trips are veeery boring that I even welcome cumulus encounters to keep me awake and busy.

For Mooneys range check: http://www.monroyaero.com/lrupgd.html

José

 

[olasek]

Calling someone financially challenged

Sorry, it was a language carelessness on my part (English is my second language). What I meant was .. on a constrained budget.

??? $100k buys plenty of twins that fill his mission, $100k buys a few singles that will.

You got a point. The market for twins is unbelievable, who know maybe you can pick up one for free . But somehow I don't see an 'entry level' pilot (his own words) flying a twin.

 

[alfadog]

Thanks for the comment. What type of Piper Arrow 32? I have seen some in photos that look nothing like you mentioned, (Aisle between the seats). How much do they cost?

You mean a 32R Lance? If you do not need six seats then you are buying more airplane than you need and hauling more weight around.

I have an Arrow II and it is very comfortable for four "full-sized Americans" i.e. over 200 lb each. You are cutting into fuel a bit there but if your pax weigh closer to 170 average you should be OK with full tanks.

The Arrow is prosaic, not "the best" of anything, but they are solid performers and your maintenance cost will be easy to bear. You can buy a very nice Arrow for < $100k.

 

[Dr. O]

You, the pilot, may be willing to do non stop 1000 mile runs, but I can comfortably predict that your passengers will agree to do it just once - going there...
Coming back you will be alone and they will be at FL400 sipping a cocktail...
The wife in the backseat is just the exception that proves the rule... Love is blind...
Me, in a clapped out old Apache with 6 hours of fuel (8 if I throttle back) plans my fuel stops for 3.5 hours average... As much as I love flying it gets old fast once the aches and pains start in... Need to get out, take a whiz, walk around, and mentally let down... There is not much mental strain in XC after a half century of doing it but the noise wears at you...

Why are you in such an all fired hurry to get out of the airplane and into a car? We (supposedly) fly for fun... Stop at different airports, talk with the lineboy, read the bulletin board... Out in the boonies drop down to 500 feet and look at the scenery... We are the one tenth of one percent of the people in this country who are privileged to see the land from our perspective... People go to great lengths just to look out from the top of the Empire State Building or from the Arch in St. Louis or from the top of LookOut Mountain, and we can do the same thing anytime we choose... How quickly we become jaded...

 

[mrjones30]

You mean a 32R Lance? If you do not need six seats then you are buying more airplane than you need and hauling more weight around.

I have an Arrow II and it is very comfortable for four "full-sized Americans" i.e. over 200 lb each. You are cutting into fuel a bit there but if your pax weigh closer to 170 average you should be OK with full tanks.

The Arrow is prosaic, not "the best" of anything, but they are solid performers and your maintenance cost will be easy to bear. You can buy a very nice Arrow for < $100k.

Alpha,

Due to the fact we are both in Florida what does the routine maintenance costs look like in Miami for a Piper?

 

[mrjones30]

You, the pilot, may be willing to do non stop 1000 mile runs, but I can comfortably predict that your passengers will agree to do it just once - going there...
Coming back you will be alone and they will be at FL400 sipping a cocktail...
The wife in the backseat is just the exception that proves the rule... Love is blind...
Me, in a clapped out old Apache with 6 hours of fuel (8 if I throttle back) plans my fuel stops for 3.5 hours average... As much as I love flying it gets old fast once the aches and pains start in... Need to get out, take a whiz, walk around, and mentally let down... There is not much mental strain in XC after a half century of doing it but the noise wears at you...

Why are you in such an all fired hurry to get out of the airplane and into a car? We (supposedly) fly for fun... Stop at different airports, talk with the lineboy, read the bulletin board... Out in the boonies drop down to 500 feet and look at the scenery... We are the one tenth of one percent of the people in this country who are privileged to see the land from our perspective... People go to great lengths just to look out from the top of the Empire State Building or from the Arch in St. Louis or from the top of LookOut Mountain, and we can do the same thing anytime we choose... How quickly we become jaded...

I can only speak for myself,

I LOVE to drive, I know a lot of people don't like to but I do. I can drive from Tampa to Key West Florida spend a day out there and then drive all the way back. For some they would think it's stupid but I'm thinking it will be pretty much the same for me when it comes to flying. I understand that driving and flying are totally two different activities but the longevity of flying and driving might be the same, (Sitting in one area for 6+ hours) as long as I am comfortable in the seats I will enjoy it just fine.

 

[alfadog]

Alpha,

Due to the fact we are both in Florida what does the routine maintenance costs look like in Miami for a Piper?

Mine is a 4-cylinder non-turbo Lycoming so engine maintenance is about as cheap as it gets. Airframe is largely Cherokee so easy there. Remember the Arrow's mission was/is largely as a (complex) trainer so sturdiness and low maintenance would have played a large part in the design. My mechanic is very knowlegable about Pipers and charges $55/hour. I am on my first annual now. Was quoted 21 hours for the annual by my previous mechanic. He recommended the fellow I have now mainly because my squawk list has a number of electrical issues and my present guy is very good at those and the other doesn't like them. If you are in the area one day, I will take you up.