The 50000th Night Currency Question

[Therookguy]

Scenario: I am not night current, but I have 3 night landings to a full stop in the preceding 90 days and only two night takeoffs. If I load up with passengers and takeoff on a night flight am I now current? I.e does the third takeoff make me current as soon as it happens or do I need to go and log it?

If it does make me current, that and the 3 takeoff and landings rule is silly to me. So to be current I'd actually wait till night time to depart vs. taking off during the day and then flying non-current for the night portion of the flight? How is that safer?

 

[MauleSkinner]

The reg doesn’t require logging them, but if they’re not logged, how can anyone know they happened? (I know…how can anyone know ANYTHING in a logbook actually happened?)

don’t confuse current, legal, and safe. They’re three different things.

 

[Larry in TN]

The reg doesn’t require logging them

14 CFR 61.51(a)(2) requires that flight time "The aeronautical experience required for meeting the recent flight experience requirements of this part" to be "document[ed] and record[ed] [...] in a manner acceptable to the Administrator"

The problem with the OP's plan is that he can't act as PIC for the takeoff at night with passengers on board if he isn't night current. The night takeoff would not be legal.

 

[Rgbeard]

14 CFR 61.51(a)(2) requires that flight time "The aeronautical experience required for meeting the recent flight experience requirements of this part" to be "document[ed] and record[ed] [...] in a manner acceptable to the Administrator"

The problem with the OP's plan is that he can't act as PIC for the takeoff at night with passengers on board if he isn't night current. The night takeoff would not be legal.

Yep. This isn’t much of a thinker. The OP is illegal at the beginning of the flight.

 

[455 Bravo Uniform]

Since we’re playing games, theoretically you could fast taxi, get the wheels off the ground in ground effect for a split second, then taxi back and go pick up your passengers.

 

[MauleSkinner]

14 CFR 61.51(a)(2) requires that flight time "The aeronautical experience required for meeting the recent flight experience requirements of this part" to be "document[ed] and record[ed] [...] in a manner acceptable to the Administrator"

oops

The problem with the OP's plan is that he can't act as PIC for the takeoff at night with passengers on board if he isn't night current. The night takeoff would not be legal.

I got the impression that the OP knew that.

 

[EdFred]

14 CFR 61.51(a)(2) requires that flight time "The aeronautical experience required for meeting the recent flight experience requirements of this part" to be "document[ed] and record[ed] [...] in a manner acceptable to the Administrator"

The problem with the OP's plan is that he can't act as PIC for the takeoff at night with passengers on board if he isn't night current. The night takeoff would not be legal.

So if I get night current before loading up the pax and haven't put it in my logbook because it's at home, I'm not legal? Doubt that would hold up.

Also, is it illegal to taxi with pax if not current. The pilot may not fly until the 3rd takeoff is performed. However the flight doesn't actually start until the plane leaves the ground. So at the moment the plane leaves the grond he is night current.

 

[Dave Theisen]

The 5000th “I know what I want to do isn’t right, but I want someone to tell me it’s ok” Thread.

 

[Larry in TN]

So if I get night current before loading up the pax and haven't put it in my logbook because it's at home, I'm not legal? Doubt that would hold up.

Logging is clearly required. If it isn't logged, it doesn't meet the requirements of 61.51 and 61.57. Write it down on a piece of paper then transfer to the main logbook later. There is no requirement that your logbook can be only a single book.

 

[TCABM]

Seriously?

 

[MauleSkinner]

Also, is it illegal to taxi with pax if not current. The pilot may not fly until the 3rd takeoff is performed. However the flight doesn't actually start until the plane leaves the ground. So at the moment the plane leaves the grond he is night current.

The reg says nothing about flying, only acting as Pilot in Command.

 

[eman1200]

if I drank 7 hours 45 minutes ago, can I fly? if you just round up, it's basically 8 hours.

 

[MauleSkinner]

if I drank 7 hours 45 minutes ago, can I fly? if you just round up, it's basically 8 hours.

But you’re acting as PIC while you’re fulfilling your preflight requirements…

 

[Zeldman]

Logging is clearly required. If it isn't logged, it doesn't meet the requirements of 61.51 and 61.57. Write it down on a piece of paper then transfer to the main logbook later. There is no requirement that your logbook can be only a single book.

Correct. And no regulation that states that your logbook be an expensive leather bound logbook sold at Sportys. It can be a paper bag as far as anyone cares, as long as the correct information is logged, dated and signed.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Correct. And no regulation that states that your logbook be an expensive leather bound logbook sold at Sportys. It can be a paper bag as far as anyone cares, as long as the correct information is logged, dated and signed.

Signed? Where is the regulation requiring us to sign our own logbooks?

and, ah, the great paper bag myth has graduated from napkins. I can't help picturing an FAA investigation of a serious pilot deviation. FAA asks to see the pilots logbook and get handed a bunch of paper bags.

 

[Salty]

What if you take off at 11pm with passengers on the last day of your currency and fly past midnight. Are you legally allowed to land with them, or do they have to jump out until you do your three takeoff/landings?

 

[EdFred]

The reg says nothing about flying, only acting as Pilot in Command.

Don't need to be a pilot to taxi an airplane legally.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Don't need to be a pilot to taxi an airplane legally.

True…but from the time it moves for the purpose of flight is loggable as part of the flight, so unless one of the passengers is taxiing, the presumption is that a crewmember is doing the taxiing to the runway for takeoff.

 

[Lindberg]

What if you take off at 11pm with passengers on the last day of your currency and fly past midnight.

Then you've violated the regulation.

Are you legally allowed to land with them, or do they have to jump out until you do your three takeoff/landings?

You've already violated the reg. How will killing your passengers improve the situation?

 

[MauleSkinner]

You've already violated the reg. How will killing your passengers improve the situation?

Fewer witnesses.

 

[Zeldman]

Signed? Where is the regulation requiring us to sign our own logbooks?

and, ah, the great paper bag myth has graduated from napkins. I can't help picturing an FAA investigation of a serious pilot deviation. FAA asks to see the pilots logbook and get handed a bunch of paper bags.

I had to present my logbook for an ''official'' inspection once.

The reason the FAA reviewed it is because I had started the ground school for a Part 135 job, and the director of operations thought that a log book is not official unless it is in a leather bound high dollar logbook. I had chose to save money and log in a spiral notebook. I also log everything in pencil. So he called the POI to inspect my logbook.

The fed that inspected my logbook told me it was a good logbook, everything was in order except I need to sign every page to confirm that what I logged was the truth and not a fabrication. (Parker Pen model 51 comes to mind..)

I figured that a director of operations that doesn't know what a logbook is might also not know some other things that might bring the wrath of the FAA on the company and/or the pilot, so I chose to exercise my employment options and go somewhere else.

The fed I did my ATP check ride with thought my logbook was really nice. He also told me I went through a lot of trouble to save 25 bucks on a log book... and he told me I needed to sign the last full page....

 

[EdFred]

True…but from the time it moves for the purpose of flight is loggable as part of the flight, so unless one of the passengers is taxiing, the presumption is that a crewmember is doing the taxiing to the runway for takeoff.

Except I don't log my taxi time. I've been pretty vocal about that for years. Parallel to the FAAs ruling on loggable flight time being compensation, I'm not PIC until I leave the ground.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I had to present my logbook for an ''official'' inspection once.

The reason the FAA reviewed it is because I had started the ground school for a Part 135 job, and the director of operations thought that a log book is not official unless it is in a leather bound high dollar logbook. I had chose to save money and log in a spiral notebook. I also log everything in pencil. So he called the POI to inspect my logbook.

The fed that inspected my logbook told me it was a good logbook, everything was in order except I need to sign every page to confirm that what I logged was the truth and not a fabrication. (Parker Pen model 51 comes to mind..)

I figured that a director of operations that doesn't know what a logbook is might also not know some other things that might bring the wrath of the FAA on the company and/or the pilot, so I chose to exercise my employment options and go somewhere else.

The fed I did my ATP check ride with thought my logbook was really nice. He also told me I went through a lot of trouble to save 25 bucks on a log book... and he told me I needed to sign the last full page....

There's still no regulation or even AFAIK an AC or written policy requiring signing every page. Of course, there are people who think there's one but that's not my problem

There is also nothing preventing someone who you hand a document to - any document fir a formal purpose - to ask for a formal statement of authenticity. That's not an "aviation thing." Done all the time in many legal and business situations.

i gave up signing my logbook years ago but never had a problem signing when requested. Usually only the last page when I was asked. Figured the signature line was for convenience.

Now my logbook is electronic. No place for my signature. Would it be proper for someone reviewing my logbook in an official or business capacity to ask for me to affirm it's mine and accurate in some formal way? Of course.

 

[luvflyin]

Scenario: I am not night current, but I have 3 night landings to a full stop in the preceding 90 days and only two night takeoffs. If I load up with passengers and takeoff on a night flight am I now current? I.e does the third takeoff make me current as soon as it happens or do I need to go and log it?

If it does make me current, that and the 3 takeoff and landings rule is silly to me. So to be current I'd actually wait till night time to depart vs. taking off during the day and then flying non-current for the night portion of the flight? How is that safer?

You wasn’t legal when you made the takeoff, but you became current as soon as you did it. I’m not getting why you think that makes the whole 3 landing and takeoff rule silly?

 

[RussR]

There's still no regulation or even AFAIK an AC or written policy requiring signing every page. Of course, there are people who think there's one but that's not my problem

Jeppesen, ASA, Gleim, et al, created this problem by putting that signature line on each page. It made people think it was required. And maybe it is in some countries, but not the U.S.

 

[RussR]

So at the moment the plane leaves the grond he is night current.

I find this interesting, not from a legal standpoint (I'd say that practically, if anything were to happen, the pilot would be considered not night current and therefore in violation), but from more of a logic standpoint.

Since we're already being utterly pedantic in this thread anyway...

- If you don't actually fly, then currency is not an issue because no flight time occurs. So a takeoff run to rotation speed but then an abort is not a flight. Ergo, you don't need to be current to do that with passengers.
- But, if the wheels lift off the ground, then you do need to be current.
- However, the moment the wheels lift off the ground, you are now current.

So, if you are current the instant the wheels leave the ground, at what point did you actually violate the regulation? It appears that the need the be current and the establishment of currency occur simultaneously. And if that's the case, there is no period of time where you were not current.

I like it. Of course it's definitely an argument that would in no way hold up in front of an NTSB appeal, but it's fun to talk about anyway.

 

[MauleSkinner]

I find this interesting, not from a legal standpoint (I'd say that practically, if anything were to happen, the pilot would be considered not night current and therefore in violation), but from more of a logic standpoint.

Since we're already being utterly pedantic in this thread anyway...

- If you don't actually fly, then currency is not an issue because no flight time occurs. So a takeoff run to rotation speed but then an abort is not a flight. Ergo, you don't need to be current to do that with passengers.
- But, if the wheels lift off the ground, then you do need to be current.
- However, the moment the wheels lift off the ground, you are now current.

So, if you are current the instant the wheels leave the ground, at what point did you actually violate the regulation? It appears that the need the be current and the establishment of currency occur simultaneously. And if that's the case, there is no period of time where you were not current.

I like it. Of course it's definitely an argument that would in no way hold up in front of an NTSB appeal, but it's fun to talk about anyway.

Kinda like in jets you can drink right up to V1, because you don’t know whether you’re going flying or not.

 

[luvflyin]

I find this interesting, not from a legal standpoint (I'd say that practically, if anything were to happen, the pilot would be considered not night current and therefore in violation), but from more of a logic standpoint.

Since we're already being utterly pedantic in this thread anyway...

- If you don't actually fly, then currency is not an issue because no flight time occurs. So a takeoff run to rotation speed but then an abort is not a flight. Ergo, you don't need to be current to do that with passengers.
- But, if the wheels lift off the ground, then you do need to be current.
- However, the moment the wheels lift off the ground, you are now current.

So, if you are current the instant the wheels leave the ground, at what point did you actually violate the regulation? It appears that the need the be current and the establishment of currency occur simultaneously. And if that's the case, there is no period of time where you were not current.

I like it. Of course it's definitely an argument that would in no way hold up in front of an NTSB appeal, but it's fun to talk about anyway.

This reminds me I haven't watched Catch 22 in a few years. I'm gonna see if I can find it on Netflix tonight. I'm already having impure thoughts about the General's WAC

 

[eman1200]

...I like it. Of course it's definitely an argument that would in no way hold up in front of an NTSB appeal, but it's fun to talk about anyway.

like many edfredisms, fun(ny) to talk about, slim chance in real life though.

 

[EdFred]

like many edfredisms, fun(ny) to talk about, slim chance in real life though.

Oh, I've done this situation in real life. 3 night landings for currency, but only 2 take offs, and launched becoming simultaneously current while having a pax. The FAA logbook police never came after me.

 

[EdFred]

Kinda like in jets you can drink right up to V1, because you don’t know whether you’re going flying or not.

Except if you do leave the ground and have drank within the 8 hours you are in violation.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Jeppesen, ASA, Gleim, et al, created this problem by putting that signature line on each page. It made people think it was required. And maybe it is in some countries, but not the U.S.

You mean they are not regulatory bodies?