That other G6 Cirrus

labbadabba

labbadabba

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labbadabba
So, the other tread was mostly about the new SR22 which is drool-worthy (for most of us at least) but I think in a lot of ways the upgrade to the SR20 may be more significant.

http://cirrusaircraft.com/aircraft/sr20/

Two BIG changes.

1. Lyc IO-390 215 HP
2. 150lb increase in useful load

This is the first certified factory installation of the new Lyc which I know Pipistrel was also considering for the Pantera. Looking at fuel burn of 11gph and 150ktas is pretty salty considering the creature comforts in the SR20.

It also appears to be a true four-place airplane now with the useful load increase. There are of course options that will cut into that extra load, A/C, avionics goodies but with 3 1/2 hours of fuel (plus reserves) you're looking at 700+ lbs in the cabin.

Given the price delta between the SR22 and the SR20 and the increased capability of the SR20, it seems you get better bang for the buck with the SR20.

Thoughts?
 
That's one mean looking plane!

th
 
labbadabba said:
...Given the price delta between the SR22 and the SR20 and the increased capability of the SR20, it seems you get better bang for the buck with the SR20.

Thoughts?
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What is the official price delta? (base model to base model, or comparatively equipped, whichever is known?)
 
wow. That sr20 is going to be a huge seller at that price point. A new Archer is running around 500
 
I looked at this also and I am not that impressed. 150 kts, 4 hrs., w/750 lb payload, 11 g/hr can be equaled or beaten by several 50 yr/old airframes (Mooney) for a whole lot less money. Cosmetics/electronics are certainly better. If I had that kind of money, I would still get a really nice F33 and buy a condo at the beach and a fishing boat too.
 
labbadabba said:
If it's anything like the current, then around $300k
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So an SR20 is roughly $550k vs an SR22 at $850k ($300k delta)?
Trouble is, if one can live without a brand new airplane, <$300k will buy a very nice low time used SR22 leaving plenty of cash left for gas and goodies.
 
avongil said:
wow. That sr20 is going to be a huge seller at that price point. A new Archer is running around 500
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I think he meant the delta (difference in price between the two models) is $300k
 
For the price you could buy a brand new two place Pitts, a new cub and a couple lawn chairs and have way more fun. But then again not all of us stayed in a holiday inn express last night.
 
Morgan3820 said:
I looked at this also and I am not that impressed. 150 kts, 4 hrs., w/750 lb payload, 11 g/hr can be equaled or beaten by several 50 yr/old airframes (Mooney) for a whole lot less money. Cosmetics/electronics are certainly better. If I had that kind of money, I would still get a really nice F33 and buy a condo at the beach and a fishing boat too.
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Acrodustertoo said:
For the price you could buy a brand new two place Pitts, a new cub and a couple lawn chairs and have way more fun. But then again not all of us stayed in a holiday inn express last night.
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Well, yes. That is what can be argued anytime you're comparing new aircraft at full retail vs. the legacy fleet. My point here is that the SR20 has long been regarded as a limited/training aircraft because of it's low useful load (akin to the DA40, PA-28-201 and other contemporaries).

All I'm saying is that this upgrade is significant for the SR20 because it is now much more of a true four-place cross country aircraft. It's in a different class now. All the SR22 got was some new lights and the upgraded G1000 (so did the SR20). In terms of upgrades, this time around the SR20 got the biggest boost in the Cirrus lineup.
 
labbadabba said:
Well, yes. That is what can be argued anytime you're comparing new aircraft at full retail vs. the legacy fleet. My point here is that the SR20 has long been regarded as a limited/training aircraft because of it's low useful load (akin to the DA40, PA-28-201 and other contemporaries).

All I'm saying is that this upgrade is significant for the SR20 because it is now much more of a true four-place cross country aircraft. It's in a different class now. All the SR22 got was some new lights and the upgraded G1000 (so did the SR20). In terms of upgrades, this time around the SR20 got the biggest boost in the Cirrus lineup.
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No argument about the importance of the changes. The SR20 in our club is considered by all who fly it for serious cross country as a two place airplane because of the limited useful load you noted.
 
The real game changer is that for the first time, cirrus has allowed a Lyco installation, which negates the need for the chute. :D

Joking aside, I'd be a crazy enough mofo to rip out the conti and put the lyco on an old gen 1 sr20 if an STC add to the standing TCDS would allow for it. The problem is that horsepower. The Cirri are fat dumb heavy turkey hotel pre-molded bathtubs. That airframe would be sweet with a 250 parallel valve Lyco, cheap to overhaul too. Then again, pretty much anything would be sweet with a parallel valve 540 on it.
 
GRG55 said:
No argument about the importance of the changes. The SR20 in our club is considered by all who fly it for serious cross country as a two place airplane because of the limited useful load you noted.
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What is the cutoff limit for 'serious 4 place'? How big are your people? Seems to me like it had a decent load already, maybe I'm just light.
 
Does anyone know if LOP is allowed with the IO-390? At 11 GPH cruise I'm thinking the answer is no, but wasn't sure if that was a "max cruise" fuel burn as opposed to "best economy". That doesn't change the fact that I'd run it LOP anyway.

This is a big deal in many ways. Not only displacing the Continental IO-360 (which I never thought was a good engine), but this is also the first significant OEM installation of a Lycoming IO-390 on what is one of the most significant GA aircraft today. That engine has been around for years (as has the IO-580, its 6-cylinder big brother), but has had a hard time getting onto a new aircraft.
 
I have an IO-390 in my Sportsman and regularly run LOP. ROP I get about 142 kts @11.5 gph and LOP 132 kts @8.5 gph
 
jkgoblue said:
I have an IO-390 in my Sportsman and regularly run LOP. ROP I get about 142 kts @11.5 gph and LOP 132 kts @8.5 gph
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Yes, the engine will run LOP just fine. I spent many hours running 580s (and 540s, and other Lycomings) LOP, my point was what's advertised or allowed in the POH. As far as I can tell, SI1094D is still the latest revision which does not allow LOP ops. Cirrus has always recommended LOP in their POH, which is why I'm curious if that was still the case with this Lycoming.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Does anyone know if LOP is allowed with the IO-390? At 11 GPH cruise I'm thinking the answer is no, but wasn't sure if that was a "max cruise" fuel burn as opposed to "best economy". That doesn't change the fact that I'd run it LOP anyway.

This is a big deal in many ways. Not only displacing the Continental IO-360 (which I never thought was a good engine), but this is also the first significant OEM installation of a Lycoming IO-390 on what is one of the most significant GA aircraft today. That engine has been around for years (as has the IO-580, its 6-cylinder big brother), but has had a hard time getting onto a new aircraft.
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Asked a friend who worked on the program, and got this answer:

Not a yes and not a no for this one, Ted. Cirrus provides a "carrot" on the Garmin that denotes the best economy setting. This algorithm was set after much time in the dyno and flight testing and is not derived from peak EGT. It is derived from the outside/intake conditions and makes the recommendations from the data Cirrus and Lycoming constructed. Is it LOP 100% of the time? No. Could it be LOP? Yes, depending on conditions.
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exncsurfer said:
What is the cutoff limit for 'serious 4 place'? How big are your people? Seems to me like it had a decent load already, maybe I'm just light.
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The one in our club is just under 900 lbs, which is low for a 200 hp travelling airplane. The new Lycoming powered SR20 looks to be about 1050 lbs. 1000 lb useful load, 700 lbs payload with full fuel has always been my rule of thumb minimum for a single.
 
GRG55 said:
So an SR20 is roughly $550k vs an SR22 at $850k ($300k delta)?
Trouble is, if one can live without a brand new airplane, <$300k will buy a very nice low time used SR22 leaving plenty of cash left for gas and goodies.
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Either Cirrus is losing their shirt on every SR20 they sell, or they make bank on every SR22. The price delta between the two engines can't be more than 50k.
 
GRG55 said:
The one in our club is just under 900 lbs, which is low for a 200 hp travelling airplane. The new Lycoming powered SR20 looks to be about 1050 lbs. 1000 lb useful load, 700 lbs payload with full fuel has always been my rule of thumb minimum for a single.
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That is still better than the 172's that I rent. I never looked at SR20 details, I just always assumed it was an actual 2 seater for some reason. Seems like they'd be more popular as rentals/trainers than they are. Or maybe I just don't live where they are popular.
 
weilke said:
Either Cirrus is losing their shirt on every SR20 they sell, or they make bank on every SR22. The price delta between the two engines can't be more than 50k.
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Seem to recall that P.T Barnam had something to say about that?
 
weilke said:
Either Cirrus is losing their shirt on every SR20 they sell, or they make bank on every SR22. The price delta between the two engines can't be more than 50k.
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I'm thinking it's the latter. I'm sure they've recouped R&D cost by now on a plane designed in the 90's. The price increase has far outstripped inflation and the SR20 price has remained comparatively flat.
 
labbadabba said:
I'm thinking it's the latter. I'm sure they've recouped R&D cost by now on a plane designed in the 90's. The price increase has far outstripped inflation and the SR20 price has remained comparatively flat.
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Because there is competition in the trainer market. DA40, 172
 
labbadabba said:
I'm thinking it's the latter. I'm sure they've recouped R&D cost by now on a plane designed in the 90's. The price increase has far outstripped inflation and the SR20 price has remained comparatively flat.
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I think it is more along the lines of the Chevy Tahoe and Cadillac Escalade. Same vehicle but different badging and different price.
 
Acrodustertoo said:
I think it is more along the lines of the Chevy Tahoe and Cadillac Escalade. Same vehicle but different badging and different price.
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Not only is the price different but the margin is also more on the luxury model.
It will be interesting to see what happens as the Vjet is introduced. Will it command the same profit margin as the SR22T and be a popular step up for those owners? Or will it cannibalize sales of the most expensive Cirrus piston (and perhaps draw buyers away from the Piper Meridian too)?
 
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Nice used PA-46 with a JetProp conversion can be had for the same money as a Gen6
 
Acrodustertoo said:
I think it is more along the lines of the Chevy Tahoe and Cadillac Escalade. Same vehicle but different badging and different price.
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The SR22 has a bigger engine and is a bigger cabin, so it's not entirely a Tahoe vs. Escalade. The 22 definitely does have more features (FIKI, for example).
 
deonb said:
Bigger cabin? In what way? The dimensions are the same.
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I could be wrong. I had thought that the chute-o-philes I knew had told me the SR22 had a bigger cabin. At least, that was part of the justification one chute-o-phile I knew used for upgrading from his SR20 to SR22.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
The SR22 has a bigger engine and is a bigger cabin, so it's not entirely a Tahoe vs. Escalade. The 22 definitely does have more features (FIKI, for example).
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Same airframe fuselage. Too expensive to certify and tool up the molds to make two different airframes for the sales volumes.
 
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Ted DuPuis said:
I could be wrong. I had thought that the chute-o-philes I knew had told me the SR22 had a bigger cabin. At least, that was part of the justification one chute-o-phile I knew used for upgrading from his SR20 to SR22.
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More likely for the higher, faster and more useful load. The pre-Gen6 SR20 is a limited cross country machine, particularly because of the limited payload. The Gen6 20 is a BIG improvement...but it all comes at a price. When you look at what folks like you and I have invested in our twins they look pretty impressive on the value quotient imo.
 
GRG55 said:
More likely for the higher, faster and more useful load. The pre-Gen6 SR20 is a limited cross country machine, particularly because of the limited payload. The Gen6 20 is a BIG improvement...but it all comes at a price. When you look at what folks like you and I have invested in our twins they look pretty impressive on the value quotient imo.
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Like I said, I remember this one fellow claiming the bigger cabin. But then again, he also made a lot of other claims about the plane that were inaccurate.

And yes, I agree. Personally I think that the old twin market is a great value looking at the prices on many new planes. That said, the people who buy these new planes like what they have to offer, and it's worth it to them. So making the argument "I could buy [xxx] for that price!" doesn't always make sense.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Like I said, I remember this one fellow claiming the bigger cabin. But then again, he also made a lot of other claims about the plane that were inaccurate.

And yes, I agree. Personally I think that the old twin market is a great value looking at the prices on many new planes. That said, the people who buy these new planes like what they have to offer, and it's worth it to them. So making the argument "I could buy [xxx] for that price!" doesn't always make sense.
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We all like to talk up our planes :D there's a few Bo, Mooney and others around these parts that meet that description too. "Factually correct" is so boring sometimes (except for our resident "quant". ;):)

I hear ya. I've owned a series of pick-up trucks throughout my adult life. Always bought good used ones; they are tough vehicles and good value in the used market (like my Aztruck). But when Mrs. GRG55 decided she wanted a half-ton runabout of her own it ended up being the plushest, leather aroma, heated seats, Bose sound system, traction-control, multiple airbag, deeeluxe unit the GM dealer had on the new vehicle lot - I call it the "Opera truck", and it's sure nice on those trips to town or driving vacations to see the family. So I can see the appeal of a Cirrus. And looking at the prices for a good used low time SR22T, and the remarkable performance has me thinking. Horrors! :eek:

(Now if I could just get over my biased views about big bore Continental motors...:rolleyes: )
 
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My first Cirrus was an SR20 - great plane. Everyone says it's really only a 2 seater. Not true - I've had 3 adults with luggage in mine and routinely flew with the wife and 2 boys - but the boys combined are 110 pounds. It's all about managing fuel. The biggest problem many SR20 owners face is keeping temps down on climb out. It does NOT climb like an SR22 :) Not even close. I kept mine below 380 but on a sunny day in Florida - not always easy.

I had that SR20 back and forth from Florida to Wisconsin and back over to Rochester NY several times - so to the argument of it not being a "true cross country" I disagree. In fairness I would not consider going out west with a SR20 - but I probably would not do it often in a 22 either. 22T - different story.

22 is obviously a much more capable aircraft but having 370 hours in a SR20 I can say it's a pretty sweet ride. Manage fuel and manage temps. Curious as hell to see how the new Lycoming does..
 
Wow, $564'900 for the GTS SR20 according to this. You can probably offer that on this one instead and get yourself a GTS SR22T instead, albeit a 2013 model.

You got to REALLY love the new airplane smell to go for the SR20 as a personal plane.
 
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