Tesla Model 3 - Now I get the hype.

tspear said:
Wow, you are right. I just assumed it was most, based on where I have lived, and bought cars.
As for sub metering. That is much harder than you think. :D

Tim
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Do what is done at the hangars at the airport: Put in another meter only on the charging line. Wouldn't have to be like the main meter.
 
EdFred said:
Do what is done at the hangars at the airport: Put in another meter only on the charging line. Wouldn't have to be like the main meter.
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I have done sub-metering projects for DoD.
There are two headaches. One is just installing the meter; but that can be done when installing the charger.
The second issue is the data, getting it from the meter to where the AMR or the meter reader can see it is much more complex.

Tim
 
tspear said:
I have done sub-metering projects for DoD.
There are two headaches. One is just installing the meter; but that can be done when installing the charger.
The second issue is the data, getting it from the meter to where the AMR or the meter reader can see it is much more complex.

Tim
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It doesn't have to be. As electric cars become more common, I think they'll just build the ability to meter the charger separately into a standard electric meter, and send the signal from the charger over the supply line using something similar to how BPL works. That way the charger can be tied into the distribution panel without the need to run separate supply lines from the drop. It could also be designed to support multiple chargers quite easily.

Rich
 
RJM62 said:
In a vague, philosophical sense, I agree. In a more practical sense, I think you may as well be saying, "Let them eat cake."

The practical fact is that people who are struggling to pay their rent and put food on the table are going to put off expensive purchases; and the more expensive those purchases are, the longer they're going to put them off. Making a safety-critical item like tires even harder for people to afford is ridiculous in the real world.

You can talk about personal responsibility all you want. It doesn't change the fact that some people really do have to count pocket change to buy food. Just hang around a grocery store for a while and watch the people pay a whopping 11 percent for a machine to change their coins into vouchers that they can use at the register. You can say they should have made better choices and acted more responsibly, and most of the time you'd be right. But it also would be irrelevant. What is, is, and it's all we have to work with.

Rich
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I'm not discounting that there are plenty of people out there scraping to make ends meet. I'm just saying that the overall burden on them doesn't change if you put the tax on the tires instead of at the fuel pump. Whether they are smart enough to keep a reserve for that when it comes time to buy tires is another issue. There will always be used tires out there that already had the tax paid. However, I still think that if highways/interstates were all toll-based, it would be a better method than fuel tax or tire tax and they'd pay at point-of-use just like the fuel tax does.
 
SoonerAviator said:
I'm not discounting that there are plenty of people out there scraping to make ends meet. I'm just saying that the overall burden on them doesn't change if you put the tax on the tires instead of at the fuel pump. Whether they are smart enough to keep a reserve for that when it comes time to buy tires is another issue. There will always be used tires out there that already had the tax paid. However, I still think that if highways/interstates were all toll-based, it would be a better method than fuel tax or tire tax and they'd pay at point-of-use just like the fuel tax does.
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The biggest problem with tolls is the Big Brother aspect of electronic toll collection. But on the other hand, buying gas with a credit card probably results in more datamining than state governments are smart enough to do; so I guess in the end, it's more a matter of who's keeping tabs on you. In a particular irony for a libertarian, I'd rather it be the government than Google.

Rich
 
Does the car not have data on when it was charged and how much energy would have been expended doing that?
 
RJM62 said:
For home charging stations, require that all new chargers have metering built in that the owner (or utility company meter reader) could read and report to the electric company, and apportion that portion of the existing utility tax to road use. The customer's taxes wouldn't change, just the apportionment to roads as a percentage of total electric use. If existing chargers don't have that ability (I have no idea whether they do), then come up with an estimated percentage and use that instead.
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It doesn't quite work that way. Only DC-charging uses external chargers, but almost nobody has those at home since they're like $60k and require 3-phase power. A/C-charging, which is what most people have at home, uses a charger that's built inside each car itself, and you then just plug it into some sort of outlet at home.

That outlet could be a normal 110V 15A outlet (no way to special tax), but more realistically it's something like a NEMA 14-50 240V outlet. Except there is nothing EV-specific about a 14-50. I have a quite few of those on my property and I also use them to run my Christmas Lights, my RV, my oven, and some 240V power tools.

The J1772 EV specific A/C units that people see in some homes and public places and that they love to call an "EV-charger" is not actually a charger - it's a glorified 240V extension cord with a GFCI box and a fancy plug that fits some EV's natively (not Tesla). I actually still have an old J1772 box lying around from our Nissan Leaf days - but guess what, the other end of that box also plugs into a 14-50. If there is any hint of a tax on J1772 outlets at home, people will just abandon them and use 14-50 outlets directly instead. There would be a sudden uptick of electricians installing "RV Outlets" and "Welder Outlets".

Anyway, point is, at home there isn't anything EV-specific that you can build metering into.

I'm personally fine with the WA state flat EV road tax as it is (equivalent to 12'500 miles/year).
 
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Matthew said:
One of the problems with States trying to collect mileage taxes is they can't figure out a way to know how many miles are driven in that State. I suppose at registration time they can assess a fee on before/after odometer readings, but then what? Will you have to drive to an inspection station to have the numbers verified?

And what about the State where the mileage was actually driven, it isn't all done inside the State where the car is registered. I live in a border town and put miles on the roads of 2 States on a regular basis. It's pretty common for people to live on one side of State Line Rd and work on the other. I wouldn't want to pay one State for miles I drove in another State.
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A substantial majority of new vehicles have both GPS and "phone-home" systems in them. They can tout the "benefits" butt hey are installed for liability protection and for revenue (up sells on service, advertising, etc.). It would be easy enough for a state to require data sent to them. And for others, an annual inspection program can/will collect the data.
 
deonb said:
It doesn't quite work that way. Only DC-charging uses external chargers, but almost nobody has those at home since they're like $60k and require 3-phase power. A/C-charging, which is what most people have at home, uses a charger that's built inside each car itself, and you then just plug it into some sort of outlet at home.

That outlet could be a normal 110V 15A outlet (no way to special tax), but more realistically it's something like a NEMA 14-50 240V outlet. Except there is nothing EV-specific about a 14-50. I have a quite few of those on my property and I also use them to run my Christmas Lights, my RV, my oven, and some 240V power tools.

The J1772 EV specific A/C units that people see in some homes and public places and that they love to call an "EV-charger" is not actually a charger - it's a glorified 240V extension cord with a GFCI box and a fancy plug that fits some EV's natively (not Tesla). I actually still have an old J1772 box lying around from our Nissan Leaf days - but guess what, the other end of that box also plugs into a 14-50. If there is any hint of a tax on J1772 outlets at home, people will just abandon them and use 14-50 outlets directly instead. There would be a sudden uptick of electricians installing "RV Outlets" and "Welder Outlets".

Anyway, point is, at home there isn't anything EV-specific that you can build metering into.

I'm personally fine with the WA state flat EV road tax as it is (equivalent to 12'500 miles/year).
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So build the counter into the car's built-in charger. In states that don't want to use it, it does nothing. In states that do, it's available.

The data probably is in there, anyway. All they have to do is send it to the display or the OBD2 port.

Rich
 
tspear said:
Wow, you are right. I just assumed it was most, based on where I have lived, and bought cars.
As for sub metering. That is much harder than you think. :D

Tim
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Okla. got rid of state vehicle inspections long ago. Not convinced it is really necessary, other than for the handful of people driving a busted vehicle with lights inoperable and suspension falling apart. Those vehicles usually take themselves off the road eventually.
 
State inspections are a scam, end of story.

I’d also like to see all the green stuff stand on its own, as in not take my tax dollars, if it works it should be able to stand alone and not need to steal my money to work.

What was that quote, if it works tax it, if it stops working subsidize it
 
RJM62 said:
So build the counter into the car's built-in charger. In states that don't want to use it, it does nothing. In states that do, it's available.

The data probably is in there, anyway. All they have to do is send it to the display or the OBD2 port.

Rich
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If you’re going to measure charge at the point in the car, you may as well just charge by mileage directly - it would be more accurate.
 
deonb said:
If you’re going to measure charge at the point in the car, you may as well just charge by mileage directly - it would be more accurate.
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If all the states accept that, so be it. I just think some will complain about the revenue loss.

Resort towns would be especially hard hit. Sparrow Fart's population roughly doubles during the summer. The gas tax revenues apportioned to the County also double. With a flat fee to the owner's state of residence, that would end.

Taxing at point of charge would also provide a financial incentive for localities to install (or facilitate the installation of) charging stations. Right now, I suspect they see lost revenue when someone wants to plant a charger. That can be fixed.

In the end, I really don't care how they do it. I care that they do it. New York is talking about raising the Thruway tolls yet again in 2022 and recently had to refinance some Thruway bonds that were coming due. Part of the deficit is caused by revenue loss from electric cars. I'm not a big fan of taxes in general, but roads come with costs.

Rich
 
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James331 said:
State inspections are a scam, end of story.
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Anecdote: when FL had inspections, my FIAT 124 Spyder failed the braking test. Turns out the rear brakes were not working at all, something to do with a defective proportioning valve or some such. Had no idea - nothing in day-to-day driving made it apparent. So at least in some cases it can be worthwhile, though quite inconvenient.
 
FastEddieB said:
Anecdote: when FL had inspections, my FIAT 124 Spyder failed the braking test. Turns out the rear brakes were not working at all, something to do with a defective proportioning valve or some such. Had no idea - nothing in day-to-day driving made it apparent. So at least in some cases it can be worthwhile, though quite inconvenient.
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You didn’t drive it hard enough to notice?

I fell for that scheme ONCE, made the mistake of giving my business to a state that had inspection, vehicle was in excellent like new shape, after the inspection the lugs on my aluminum wheels had been put on with a impact gun, complete with scratches in the paint on the wheels, also the shop without permission installed a sticker on my windshield, I tried to tell them windows are for looking out of, not putting stickers on, end of the day my vehicle was in worse condition after the inspection, neither the shop nor the state would take responsibility for the damage and I even paid for the privilege. Once that expired I gave my registration business to a better state that wouldn’t damage my rig and even paid less.

I’m glad if it helps a couple people, but by and large it’s a scam.
 
RJM62 said:
In a vague, philosophical sense, I agree. In a more practical sense, I think you may as well be saying, "Let them eat cake."

The practical fact is that people who are struggling to pay their rent and put food on the table are going to put off expensive purchases; and the more expensive those purchases are, the longer they're going to put them off. Making a safety-critical item like tires even harder for people to afford is ridiculous in the real world.

You can talk about personal responsibility all you want. It doesn't change the fact that some people really do have to count pocket change to buy food. Just hang around a grocery store for a while and watch the people pay a whopping 11 percent for a machine to change their coins into vouchers that they can use at the register. You can say they should have made better choices and acted more responsibly, and most of the time you'd be right. But it also would be irrelevant. What is, is, and it's all we have to work with.

Rich
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Somehow I doubt those struggling to make ends meet will be buying EVs that have an average cost nearing $40K.
 
3393RP said:
Somehow I doubt those struggling to make ends meet will be buying EVs that have an average cost nearing $40K.
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Five years ago. The number was $80K.
Within ten years, I suspect the cheapest cars will be EVs or hybrids.
Within twenty; only EVs.
Significantly lower labor costs in manufacturing, less maintenance.... They will win on the lease side which include MX first.
Then they will dominate completely.

Tim
 
wsuffa said:
A substantial majority of new vehicles have both GPS and "phone-home" systems in them. They can tout the "benefits" butt hey are installed for liability protection and for revenue (up sells on service, advertising, etc.). It would be easy enough for a state to require data sent to them. And for others, an annual inspection program can/will collect the data.
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That's the easy way to do it. The car GPS records how many miles you drive in each state, once a year (or quarter or whatever) it uploads to the mothership and each state bills you for miles traveled.
 
Bill Jennings said:
That's the easy way to do it. The car GPS records how many miles you drive in each state, once a year (or quarter or whatever) it uploads to the mothership and each state bills you for miles traveled.
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That only taxes the owner. We need to spread the taxes on all those who benefit from riding in the car, too. So, GPS chip implants for everyone that upload data to the mothership.
 
I know my Nuvi says it gets down to about 16' accuracy on good days, but that's approx the width of this part of State Line Rd.

KS is on the left and MO is on the right.

upload_2019-10-18_8-23-4.png
 
Matthew said:
I know my Nuvi says it gets down to about 16' accuracy on good days, but that's approx the width of this part of State Line Rd.

KS is on the left and MO is on the right.

View attachment 78768
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Meh. Just pay taxes to both. I am sure your carbon emissions will expand to the other side any way. Fair is fair.
 
wsuffa said:
A substantial majority of new vehicles have both GPS and "phone-home" systems in them. They can tout the "benefits" butt hey are installed for liability protection and for revenue (up sells on service, advertising, etc.). It would be easy enough for a state to require data sent to them. And for others, an annual inspection program can/will collect the data.
Click to expand...
Same business model as everything else these days. "Sell" the "customer" a "product", then collect and exfiltrate data for resale and/or to train your models.
 
@RJM62 Rich, I like the way you think. You've got about the best proposal I've ever heard for fair EV taxes.

I'd be happy to support your candidacy for mayor of Sparrow Fart. :rofl: (Or President... I just wanted an excuse to use "Sparrow Fart".)

3393RP said:
Somehow I doubt those struggling to make ends meet will be buying EVs that have an average cost nearing $40K.
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My current PHEV cost less than $10,000. There are plenty of older Leafs and such that are under $5,000. So no, they're not buying new Teslas, but they're probably already driving used EVs.

tspear said:
Five years ago. The number was $80K.
Within ten years, I suspect the cheapest cars will be EVs or hybrids.
Within twenty; only EVs.
Significantly lower labor costs in manufacturing, less maintenance.... They will win on the lease side which include MX first.
Then they will dominate completely.
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Yup. The fact that the UAW wants GM to commit to producing fewer EVs is telling.
 
My earlier post was incorrect. The median cost for an EV last year was $55,600 according to Cox Automotive.
 
3393RP said:
My earlier post was incorrect. The median cost for an EV last year was $55,600 according to Cox Automotive.
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Well, that's largely because Tesla is doing really well... They're the only ones who are really trying.

And, according to the same report, that number is down 13.4% year over year.

Finally, that's going to keep coming down because Tesla has the "Standard Range Plus" model out now. Expect this number to be in the 40s for 2019.

In any case, you can still get plenty of EVs for under $10K today.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
In any case, you can still get plenty of EVs for under $10K today.
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Part of the reason used EVs sell cheaply is fear of a used but expensive to replace battery. Most people buying new don't worry about that because they will expect to sell before that is a problem. People buying used will be buying that problem.
 
JOhnH said:
Part of the reason used EVs sell cheaply is fear of a used but expensive to replace battery. Most people buying new don't worry about that because they will expect to sell before that is a problem. People buying used will be buying that problem.
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That's an unfortunate perception caused by Nissan #rapidgate. It's not true for EV's throughout the board:

a) Tesla Model S and 3 both hold the best resale value in their class.
b) An actively cooled EV battery easily lasts over 250'000 miles, and can reach as much as 500'000 miles. That many miles on an ICE you're going to have to similarly worry about engine replacement.
c) Model 3 battery module replacement is cheaper than engine replacement on an equivalent ICE ($5k-$7k battery modules vs. $7.5k engine for a BMW 320i)

Jeff Dahn also just published a new pouch cell design that gets around 4000 cycles (> 1 million miles). That's not really relevant in cars unless you fancy yourself in a high-performance rust bucket, but it will however be helpful in trucks.


Anyway, the main issue here is that Nissan does not put active cooling in their cars, and they also don't have intelligent charging - they just charge the car to full all the time. Tesla/Bolt/Audi/Porsche/BMW all have active cooling with intelligent charging, so all of their batteries should easily get 200k+.
 
deonb said:
That's an unfortunate perception caused by Nissan #rapidgate. It's not true for EV's throughout the board:

a) Tesla Model S and 3 both hold the best resale value in their class.
b) An actively cooled EV battery easily lasts over 250'000 miles, and can reach as much as 500'000 miles. That many miles on an ICE you're going to have to similarly worry about engine replacement.
c) Model 3 battery module replacement is cheaper than engine replacement on an equivalent ICE ($5k-$7k battery modules vs. $7.5k engine for a BMW 320i)

Jeff Dahn also just published a new pouch cell design that gets around 4000 cycles (> 1 million miles). That's not really relevant in cars unless you fancy yourself in a high-performance rust bucket, but it will however be helpful in trucks.


Anyway, the main issue here is that Nissan does not put active cooling in their cars, and they also don't have intelligent charging - they just charge the car to full all the time. Tesla/Bolt/Audi/Porsche/BMW all have active cooling with intelligent charging, so all of their batteries should easily get 200k+.
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Agreed. But note that I mentioned the "fear" of an old battery. You were stating facts. Facts don't always play into peoples perception.

And it is true that Tesla holds it's value much better than almost any ICE car. I have said that before in defense of Tesla to explain that the total cost of a Tesla is not as high as it seems because you don't know total cost until you sell it and see what the residual is.
 
great, more people not keeping their eyes on the road and fiddling with their tablet while driving.
 
Software update 2019.36 bring Tesla owners the following.

Sure wish ICE vehicle manufactures would roll out improvements via software upgrades.

Release notes for 2019.36
This is what version 2019.36, currently only in early access, will bring us:

  • Regen works all the way to zero. Before, it only worked above 5 mph
  • You can now set a time to stop charging at a certain time
  • Scheduled departure: Finish charging + turning the climate control
  • A power increase of 5%
  • Automatic navigation: Automatically routes you to the location associated with your upcoming calendar events
 
deonb said:
An over the air update that adds 13 extra horsepower?
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You can’t feel 13HP in the “seat of the pants” in a 5K lbs car anyway. I doubt most ICE manufacturers would tweak fuel mapping anyway because of CAFE certification requirements. EVs don’t have to abide by emissions standards in that regard, so it’s not really a consideration for them.
 
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