Tesla Model 3 - Now I get the hype.

Charge taxes when new tires are purchased or when registration is completed to charge by the mile (vehicle weight class factored). Take taxes off of fuel altogether. Now you've linked the tax directly to the road maintenance/infrastructure. However, big gov doesn't like not having an ambiguous pot of money to pull from.

Over here on the left coast we, not me, voted for a 6 cent per gallon increase in gas tax to fix our deplorable roads. Unfortunately our new governor and other elected miscreants are diverting it away from road repair to spend as they see fit.........and that is why you NEVER vote for any new taxes....
 
Over here on the left coast we, not me, voted for a 6 cent per gallon increase in gas tax to fix our deplorable roads. Unfortunately our new governor and other elected miscreants are diverting it away from road repair to spend as they see fit.........and that is why you NEVER vote for any new taxes....

We had a very similar thing here in Atlanta. There was a toll ("usage tax") for the new GA 400 road. They promised to end the toll once the road was paid for. Traffic volume was heavier than expected, so they got more revenue. They did not pay the loan off faster, and instead took the excess for other projects. The government was very surprised when they wanted more taxes for more road work and people voted against it as they couldn't be trusted. o_O They quickly ended the toll, but people voted against them. It wasn't the toll per-se, but rather the overwhelming lack of trust from the toll debacle.

After going over the details more thoroughly (not sure if dollars got earmarked or not), they finally go approval for more transportation work. There is still one part where people in one area thought they were voting for light rail and are not getting it and they are upset. Sorry, but there are much bigger transportation issues for the metro area than their one little area.
 
One of the problems with States trying to collect mileage taxes is they can't figure out a way to know how many miles are driven in that State. I suppose at registration time they can assess a fee on before/after odometer readings, but then what? Will you have to drive to an inspection station to have the numbers verified?

And what about the State where the mileage was actually driven, it isn't all done inside the State where the car is registered. I live in a border town and put miles on the roads of 2 States on a regular basis. It's pretty common for people to live on one side of State Line Rd and work on the other. I wouldn't want to pay one State for miles I drove in another State.
 
One of the problems with States trying to collect mileage taxes is they can't figure out a way to know how many miles are driven in that State. I suppose at registration time they can assess a fee on before/after odometer readings, but then what? Will you have to drive to an inspection station to have the numbers verified?

And what about the State where the mileage was actually driven, it isn't all done inside the State where the car is registered. I live in a border town and put miles on the roads of 2 States on a regular basis. It's pretty common for people to live on one side of State Line Rd and work on the other. I wouldn't want to pay one State for miles I drove in another State.
Good point and I don't think there is any single method that will be fair to everyone.
Now I hate taxes as much as anyone but somebody's got to pay for things. We can't just keep taxing the rich for everything.

How about just raising the Federal part of the gas tax. I don't believe that has been raised since the '90s. (boy it hurts me to say that because I don't trust them any more than Atlanta or other places trust their own taxing authorities).

As for the state knowing how many miles you drove, they could make it self reporting when you register for tags each year and then confirm it when you sell the car. I believe mileage is recorded on the title or somewhere when you buy and when you sell. If you under report, then you have to make it up at sales time.

There are other methods, such as additional tire excise taxes.
 
One of the problems with States trying to collect mileage taxes is they can't figure out a way to know how many miles are driven in that State. I suppose at registration time they can assess a fee on before/after odometer readings, but then what? Will you have to drive to an inspection station to have the numbers verified?

And what about the State where the mileage was actually driven, it isn't all done inside the State where the car is registered. I live in a border town and put miles on the roads of 2 States on a regular basis. It's pretty common for people to live on one side of State Line Rd and work on the other. I wouldn't want to pay one State for miles I drove in another State.

Which state do you buy your gas in?
 
Which state do you buy your gas in?
Wherever I need it. But that's a gas tax that's not directly dependent on where I drive. I'm in a locality and have the ability to buy as little as I want or need to get me to the next gas station. And if I have the opportunity to fill up on one side of the street that has cheaper taxes than the other, that's a bonus.
 
Wherever I need it. But that's a gas tax that's not directly dependent on where I drive. I'm in a locality and have the ability to buy as little as I want or need to get me to the next gas station. And if I have the opportunity to fill up on one side of the street that has cheaper taxes than the other, that's a bonus.

And that was my point. You don't attempt to allocate your purchases (which are taxed) to states based on use. And I'd guess if there is a radical difference in gas taxes between states, the retailers adjust to be pretty close in total price across the border. At least they do along the interstates, I've observed.

I think if they go to mileage based taxes (and the tech exists-look at the Progressive Insurance CAN-BUS dongle) they'd just charge you where you live and assume folks who live on the other side of the state line but drive in your state would make up for it.

I'm pretty sure accurate allocation of taxes/costs are not very high on the politicians list of concerns.
 
I'm pretty sure accurate allocation of taxes/costs are not very high on the politicians list of concerns.

Actually, allocation of costs is a pretty major source of contention in the DC area. (Think WMATA)
Additionally, all states are pretty touchy about collecting what they perceive as their rightful taxes.

Tim
 
And that was my point. You don't attempt to allocate your purchases (which are taxed) to states based on use. And I'd guess if there is a radical difference in gas taxes between states, the retailers adjust to be pretty close in total price across the border. At least they do along the interstates, I've observed.

I think if they go to mileage based taxes (and the tech exists-look at the Progressive Insurance CAN-BUS dongle) they'd just charge you where you live and assume folks who live on the other side of the state line but drive in your state would make up for it.

I'm pretty sure accurate allocation of taxes/costs are not very high on the politicians list of concerns.
My point, too.

But there's not a way to prevent being taxed twice - once in your own State and again in a neighboring State - unless all States have the same methods of calculating mileage driven inside their own State. That's going to add how much to the cost of a car? If KS charges me a mileage tax for total miles driven per year, but I drive a percentage of those miles in another State and then the 2nd State charges me the for THOSE miles, then I have to do the same thing I had to do with my income taxes - claim a deduction for taxes paid in another State. All this because EVs don't use gas.

I know how they'll work around all this, simply raise registration fees. That way they can avoid all the votes and procedures required to add a new tax.

Some cities, like KC, also have an earnings tax. If you live or work inside the KC city limits you owe the city a cool 1%. That's enough to think about when deciding where to live - if you work at a company outside the city limits and you are apartment or house hunting, the difference between living on one side of a street or another can be a difference of 1% in your taxes.

It also keeps accountants busy - Arrowhead and Kauffman stadiums are inside KC city limits. Each time a visiting team plays there (works inside KC city limits), they have to come up with 1% of their game check for that earnings tax. Good times.
 
One of the problems with States trying to collect mileage taxes is they can't figure out a way to know how many miles are driven in that State. I suppose at registration time they can assess a fee on before/after odometer readings, but then what? Will you have to drive to an inspection station to have the numbers verified?

And what about the State where the mileage was actually driven, it isn't all done inside the State where the car is registered. I live in a border town and put miles on the roads of 2 States on a regular basis. It's pretty common for people to live on one side of State Line Rd and work on the other. I wouldn't want to pay one State for miles I drove in another State.

Simple, they'll have a cellular connected GPS dongle that you must leave attached to the OBD-II port in your car.
 
Last edited:
We had a very similar thing here in Atlanta. There was a toll ("usage tax") for the new GA 400 road. They promised to end the toll once the road was paid for. Traffic volume was heavier than expected, so they got more revenue. They did not pay the loan off faster, and instead took the excess for other projects. The government was very surprised when they wanted more taxes for more road work and people voted against it as they couldn't be trusted. o_O They quickly ended the toll, but people voted against them. It wasn't the toll per-se, but rather the overwhelming lack of trust from the toll debacle.

After going over the details more thoroughly (not sure if dollars got earmarked or not), they finally go approval for more transportation work. There is still one part where people in one area thought they were voting for light rail and are not getting it and they are upset. Sorry, but there are much bigger transportation issues for the metro area than their one little area.

Same thing here in IL. Except they never did get rid of those tolls like they said they would. I want to say it was only for 10 years and then free, but its been awhile. Never agree to more taxes, cant agree more.
 
That's ok, they'll just charge you the penalty rate of the same as the highest mileage car in the state used.

They'd lose in court when I show that I only put 6,000 miles a year total on the truck.
 
Here's a fun one:

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Q...63df2bc879cc9f!8m2!3d39.0718113!4d-94.6072559

This gas station looks like it's in 2 States. It sits right on the KS/MO border. I'm not sure how they work it at the pumps, since some of them might be in KS and some in MO. It's also possible the pumps are in KS and the store is in MO. I'm trying to find out more about that little quirk.
I thought everything was on youtube, but I couldn't find the scene from Sergeant York (Gary Cooper) where he was in a bar with a line across the floor. One side was Tennessee and the other was Kentucky and they had different laws.
 
I thought everything was on youtube, but I couldn't find the scene from Sergeant York (Gary Cooper) where he was in a bar with a line across the floor. One side was Tennessee and the other was Kentucky and they had different laws.
There used to be a dive in Lawrence, KS when I lived there. You could sit out on the patio with a beer, but only on one side of the white line that separated the beer=OK space from the city right of way next to the sidewalk where public drinking was not allowed.
 
There's a Library in Vermont or New Hampshire that spans the border with Canada
 
We had a very similar thing here in Atlanta. There was a toll ("usage tax") for the new GA 400 road. They promised to end the toll once the road was paid for.

The toll NEVER ends. Once the road is paid for, it needs repaving!

The only instance of a toll ending when the road was paid for was Kentucky's parkway system, built in the 60s and 70s, with tolls removed between 1986 and 2006 when each road's bonds were paid off. I'm not sure how they're paying for maintenance on them now, but there's no toll booths any more.

One of the problems with States trying to collect mileage taxes is they can't figure out a way to know how many miles are driven in that State. I suppose at registration time they can assess a fee on before/after odometer readings, but then what? Will you have to drive to an inspection station to have the numbers verified?

Probably... With an additional "fee" attached, of course.

And what about the State where the mileage was actually driven, it isn't all done inside the State where the car is registered. I live in a border town and put miles on the roads of 2 States on a regular basis. It's pretty common for people to live on one side of State Line Rd and work on the other. I wouldn't want to pay one State for miles I drove in another State.

Ugh... Please, just agree to pay the state you live in. Otherwise, it'll be like it is for the trucking industry - They either need to keep a log of mileage at every state line crossing, or do it via satellite tracking. That's because, for example, Illinois has a higher tax on diesel than surrounding states, so trucks just drive right on through (most trucks have a range between 1200-1800 miles, so only need to fuel every 2-3 days). Well, the high-tax states complained, so now instead of the diesel taxes just going to the state the fuel was purchased in, trucking companies need to go through a process to ensure everyone gets paid their "fair" share.

If it comes to this in cars, it'll be GPS tracking. No doubt about it. I bet Google would even offer to pay for the hardware. (Well, maybe not Google, they already know where most people go all the time...)
 
Charge taxes when new tires are purchased or when registration is completed to charge by the mile (vehicle weight class factored). Take taxes off of fuel altogether. Now you've linked the tax directly to the road maintenance/infrastructure. However, big gov doesn't like not having an ambiguous pot of money to pull from.

The very big downside to taxing tires is that not everyone has the money (or credit) to simply go out and buy tires when they need them. For some people, it may be a choice between buying badly-needed new tires or eating that month. You don't want to make it even more expensive for them, thus endangering them and everyone else on the roads. We tend to forget that not everyone has as much disposable cash as most pilots do.

Even for those for whom the cost of tires isn't a problem, there are those who choose to replace tires well before they legally have to simply because it's safer. Punishing responsible behavior is not good policy.

For better or worse, the fuel tax is what we have. It also has some advantages in terms of more-accurate apportionment by location, and it doesn't penalize responsible behavior. So tax public charging stations, including those provided by businesses for employees and customers, on a metered basis. A hundred percent of those taxes would be apportioned to the jurisdiction for road costs.

For home charging stations, require that all new chargers have metering built in that the owner (or utility company meter reader) could read and report to the electric company, and apportion that portion of the existing utility tax to road use. The customer's taxes wouldn't change, just the apportionment to roads as a percentage of total electric use. If existing chargers don't have that ability (I have no idea whether they do), then come up with an estimated percentage and use that instead.

For those who generate their own electricity using solar, wind, etc., apportion a percentage of whatever taxes they're already paying (if any) to road use. If they're not being taxed at all on self-generated electricity, then let the state legislatures deal with that. If they want, they can collect taxes on the portion used for charging vehicles. If not, EV drivers get a free ride (literally in this case).

Taxing home charging doesn't unfairly penalize EV owners because owners of ICE vehicles typically don't have the ability to brew fuel at home, so they're paying at the pumps. (Yes, there are a few home-brew biodiesel makers out there; but I doubt if even one percent of miles driven are powered by homemade fuel.) Also, purchased electricity is already taxed in most jurisdictions, so that wouldn't change. Only the apportionment, not the total tax, would change.

Rich
 
@RJM62

Much easier to report the millage annually. Less intrusive. Most states have an annual inspection; where you can verify the mileage. Or do so when the car is sold or sent to the junkyard.

Tim
 
@RJM62

Much easier to report the millage annually. Less intrusive. Most states have an annual inspection; where you can verify the mileage. Or do so when the car is sold or sent to the junkyard.

Tim

That wouldn't overcome the jurisdictional objections that inevitably would be raised unless GPS tracking were implemented, which no one in their right mind should favor.

I'm also not sure an odometer-based fee would be simpler. It would result in many drivers getting bills that they can't afford to pay unless they're financed in some way, which would then require an infrastructure to collect those payments and deal with delinquencies. Either that or mileage would have to be estimated in advance and billed monthly, which would add not only the collection infrastructure, but also the need to settle accounts that have overpaid or underpaid. It also adds more complexity to the process of transferring, replacing, or junking a vehicle, or simply of leaving it idle (for example, if the owner has a "winter rat" that they use in bad weather).

Taxing charging stations and apportioning utility taxes for electricity used to charge vehicles would actually be simpler because the tax attaches to two things drivers would have to do anyway (charge their vehicles and pay their electric bills), and would be collected on a pay-as-you go basis. It also would overcome the jurisdictional objections.

Rich
 
...

The very big downside to taxing tires is that not everyone has the money (or credit) to simply go out and buy tires when they need them.

...

There would be a black market for used tires to avoid paying extra taxes. The revenuers would have to go in and bust it up.

...

There would be a black market for used tires to avoid paying extra taxes. The revenuers would have to go in and bust them up.
For home charging stations, require that all new chargers have metering built in that the owner (or utility company meter reader) could read and report to the electric company, and apportion that portion of the existing utility tax to road use. The customer's taxes wouldn't change, just the apportionment to roads as a percentage of total electric use. If existing chargers don't have that ability (I have no idea whether they do), then come up with an estimated percentage and use that instead.
...

My utility company does something similar for our sewer and storm drain bills. We get a baseline water usage measured during Dec/Jan/Feb. This would show the water you use inside the house for cooking, washing, whatever, and it represents pretty closely what eventually goes down the sewer. The rest of the year is when outdoor water gets used for lawns, washing cars, or anything else and a lot of that ends up going down the storm drains. The baseline water usage gets billed at a lower rate than whatever you use above that limit.

It's interesting that we are spending a lot of time trying to think of ways to collect taxes instead of ways to spend more wisely the tax revenues we already have.
 
There would be a black market for used tires to avoid paying extra taxes. The revenuers would have to go in and bust it up.



My utility company does something similar for our sewer and storm drain bills. We get a baseline water usage measured during Dec/Jan/Feb. This would show the water you use inside the house for cooking, washing, whatever, and it represents pretty closely what eventually goes down the sewer. The rest of the year is when outdoor water gets used for lawns, washing cars, or anything else and a lot of that ends up going down the storm drains. The baseline water usage gets billed at a lower rate than whatever you use above that limit.

It's interesting that we are spending a lot of time trying to think of ways to collect taxes instead of ways to spend more wisely the tax revenues we already have.

The latter would get the thread locked.

Rich
 
@RJM62

Much easier to report the millage annually. Less intrusive. Most states have an annual inspection; where you can verify the mileage. Or do so when the car is sold or sent to the junkyard.

Tim
Only 15 states have an annual or biennial inspection and not all of those are state-wide in those states. As an example, Georgia has an annual emissions test, but only in the Atlanta metro area and only for cars in a certain model-age range.



Wayne
 
We had a very similar thing here in Atlanta. There was a toll ("usage tax") for the new GA 400 road. They promised to end the toll once the road was paid for. Traffic volume was heavier than expected, so they got more revenue. They did not pay the loan off faster, and instead took the excess for other projects. The government was very surprised when they wanted more taxes for more road work and people voted against it as they couldn't be trusted. o_O They quickly ended the toll, but people voted against them. It wasn't the toll per-se, but rather the overwhelming lack of trust from the toll debacle.

After going over the details more thoroughly (not sure if dollars got earmarked or not), they finally go approval for more transportation work. There is still one part where people in one area thought they were voting for light rail and are not getting it and they are upset. Sorry, but there are much bigger transportation issues for the metro area than their one little area.

Oklahoma has more miles of turnpike toll roads than any other state. The Oklahoma Turnpike Authority (OTA) was created on the basis that once those inital turnpikes were built/paid for, the roads and maintenance would be turned over to the state. However, there was a caveat that the tolls on all OTA roads could continue as long as there was a turnpike under construction somewhere in the state. Low and behold, we keep adding more miles of turnpike, so all toll roads still remain. While that is pretty devious, I don't actually have a problem with toll roads, necessarily. The money collected goes to build/maintain the roads, so they can charge what is necessary for it. Now, the problem is that there is plenty of OTA execs at the top bringing in way too much money to oversee a very simple operation. So, it would be better if were more in the form of a non-profit.

The very big downside to taxing tires is that not everyone has the money (or credit) to simply go out and buy tires when they need them. For some people, it may be a choice between buying badly-needed new tires or eating that month. You don't want to make it even more expensive for them, thus endangering them and everyone else on the roads. We tend to forget that not everyone has as much disposable cash as most pilots do.

Even for those for whom the cost of tires isn't a problem, there are those who choose to replace tires well before they legally have to simply because it's safer. Punishing responsible behavior is not good policy.

For better or worse, the fuel tax is what we have. It also has some advantages in terms of more-accurate apportionment by location, and it doesn't penalize responsible behavior. So tax public charging stations, including those provided by businesses for employees and customers, on a metered basis. A hundred percent of those taxes would be apportioned to the jurisdiction for road costs. . .
Rich

Driving is not a right, it's a privilege. If you can't afford to buy tires for your car, you probably shouldn't be driving a car. If you can't keep your car in operable condition, they don't give you the state inspection sticker (in states with inspections). Those of lesser means still have to afford that, tires should be no different. Also, the premise of putting the taxes on tires and/or annual registration fees (odometer reporting) is that you'd remove existing fuel taxes, so they would be paying much less at the fuel pump each week. Now sure, they'd have to be cognizant to save that money for tire/mileage taxes, but it's probably a zero-sum game. The other option is to make all highways/interstates a toll road so that the taxes are collected when used and then the municipalities/counties can tax the residents for local road maintenance as is done currently. I'm actually fine with the latter option, because again, it keeps the taxes (tolls) directly tied to the use of the resource and can't be redistributed to other interests. It's also likely result in better highway/interstate road conditions since the tolls could be adjusted as needed to account for the true cost of maintenance.
 
The toll NEVER ends. Once the road is paid for, it needs repaving!

The only instance of a toll ending when the road was paid for was Kentucky's parkway system, built in the 60s and 70s, with tolls removed between 1986 and 2006 when each road's bonds were paid off. I'm not sure how they're paying for maintenance on them now, but there's no toll booths any more.



Probably... With an additional "fee" attached, of course.



Ugh... Please, just agree to pay the state you live in. Otherwise, it'll be like it is for the trucking industry - They either need to keep a log of mileage at every state line crossing, or do it via satellite tracking. That's because, for example, Illinois has a higher tax on diesel than surrounding states, so trucks just drive right on through (most trucks have a range between 1200-1800 miles, so only need to fuel every 2-3 days). Well, the high-tax states complained, so now instead of the diesel taxes just going to the state the fuel was purchased in, trucking companies need to go through a process to ensure everyone gets paid their "fair" share.

If it comes to this in cars, it'll be GPS tracking. No doubt about it. I bet Google would even offer to pay for the hardware. (Well, maybe not Google, they already know where most people go all the time...)

Agreed, the toll NEVER ends, lol. However, as much as I hate bureaucracies, the trucking industry mileage logs and tax collection is a necessary evil. OTR trucking is what does the majority of the damage to highway infrastructure due to the volume and enormous weights, so they should bear the majority of the burden for road maintenance taxes. Those taxes should be tracked as closely as is practicable to the state which those miles were driven, so that the road maintenance funds can be appropriately applied. As you mentioned, doing so with a fuel tax doesn't work that well when truckers will just ferry fuel to wherever taxes are lower. Inspection stations are another example of necessary evils for OTR trucking, since violations of excessive weight and failed safety equipment are still somewhat common.
 
There's a Library in Vermont or New Hampshire that spans the border with Canada

I thought I read about an airport where the landing strip crosses the boarder, and if you taxi the wrong way, the authorities get really ****ed.
 
If you can't afford to buy tires for your car, you probably shouldn't be driving a car.

Maybe, people will make that choice anyway when they need to get to their job, or go pick up the kids, or get to court, or go to meet with their parole officer, or get to the government offices to apply for aid.
 
I thought I read about an airport where the landing strip crosses the boarder, and if you taxi the wrong way, the authorities get really ****ed.

It's (well one of them) in Montana/Alberta. When I was flying to Alaska, that was going to be my crossing point. Canada didn't care. They were just like "taxi on over, eh". The US however...what a fustercluck. You have to file an eAPIS to taxi across the border. You have to file a flight plan with a flight time of 0 minutes. You have to call to get permission to open the flight plan/eAPIS. You have to open the flight plan, taxi across, and then call back and close it.

I didn't bother to ask them "what if I pushed/pulled the plane across?"
 
...
Maybe, people will make that choice anyway when they need to get to their job, or go pick up the kids, or get to court, or go to meet with their parole officer, or get to the government offices to apply for aid.
They can take public transportation - maybe.

This just happened in London: Commuters were interrupted by climate changers and decided getting to work was more important than the message the protesters were trying to send.

 
Driving is not a right, it's a privilege. If you can't afford to buy tires for your car, you probably shouldn't be driving a car. If you can't keep your car in operable condition, they don't give you the state inspection sticker (in states with inspections). Those of lesser means still have to afford that, tires should be no different. Also, the premise of putting the taxes on tires and/or annual registration fees (odometer reporting) is that you'd remove existing fuel taxes, so they would be paying much less at the fuel pump each week. Now sure, they'd have to be cognizant to save that money for tire/mileage taxes, but it's probably a zero-sum game.

In a vague, philosophical sense, I agree. In a more practical sense, I think you may as well be saying, "Let them eat cake."

The practical fact is that people who are struggling to pay their rent and put food on the table are going to put off expensive purchases; and the more expensive those purchases are, the longer they're going to put them off. Making a safety-critical item like tires even harder for people to afford is ridiculous in the real world.

You can talk about personal responsibility all you want. It doesn't change the fact that some people really do have to count pocket change to buy food. Just hang around a grocery store for a while and watch the people pay a whopping 11 percent for a machine to change their coins into vouchers that they can use at the register. You can say they should have made better choices and acted more responsibly, and most of the time you'd be right. But it also would be irrelevant. What is, is, and it's all we have to work with.

Rich
 
...

They can take public transportation - maybe.

This just happened in London: Commuters were interrupted by climate changers and decided getting to work was more important than the message the protesters were trying to send.


This gives me warm fuzzies.

Rich
 
Let em sit on the train. Run it as normal. They will get off either willfully or forcefully.
 
Only 15 states have an annual or biennial inspection and not all of those are state-wide in those states. As an example, Georgia has an annual emissions test, but only in the Atlanta metro area and only for cars in a certain model-age range.

Wayne

Wow, you are right. I just assumed it was most, based on where I have lived, and bought cars.
As for sub metering. That is much harder than you think. :D

Tim
 
Back
Top