masloki
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How does that not include a driver centered cluster or HUD? SMH.
Tesla Model 3 - Finally.
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Because people are willing to pay more for poor human factors.
Nauga,
and his tactile cues
flyingcheesehead
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OK. First result that showed up for me was this: https://www.forbes.com/sites/bradte...rges-an-ev-in-5-minutes-but-would-you-use-it/
There seems to be a lot of skepticism over whether it's even real. The CATL thing might indicate that it is.
But again, this was a demonstration. It's not a production car.
Again: V4 Superchargers, of which there are already over 500 locations installed, do 325kW now and are supposed to be upped to 500kW (it's not clear what will be required for this or why they're currently limited.)
Show me. Where is the car that I can buy today that can do this? They're not in production yet as far as I've been able to tell.
You know where there's a lot of lithium? Oceans.
Look, I'm all for improvements... But I suspect China is not as far ahead as they would like us to believe. I think they're just taking the opportunity to dunk on Musk.
flyingcheesehead
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I know change is hard... But I have never missed the "driver centered cluster" or physical buttons. Speed is prominently displayed in large numbers on the upper left corner of the screen. It took about two seconds to get used to it being there and it feels perfectly natural to look there instead of through my steering wheel. In fact, as a tall guy, the way Tesla does it is MORE visible than I experience in a lot of other vehicles.
You know what my most common button usage was in all my previous cars? Messing with the HVAC. You know what I don't have to do in my Tesla? Mess with the HVAC. I set it to 70, and it actually works the way I want it to. It heats up extremely quickly in the winter, cools down quickly in the summer, and then doesn't have to be told how to keep me comfortable.
Other things I used to use buttons for and no longer do in the Tesla:
* Navigation. Tap the right hand scroll wheel, "Navigate to Rough River Dam State Park in Kentucky" and I'm done. No buttons, and FAR faster and easier than before.
* Navigation again: If there's something in my calendar that has a location on it, the car automatically navigates me there. Not only is it no buttons, it's no interaction at all - It just does it. Really slick.
* Shifting. This is on the right-hand stalk for me, some models are automated with on-screen backup. (This is one where I'm glad I have the stalk, though the automated shifting may work just fine now.)
* Cruise control. Believe it or not, this still uses physical controls. Right-hand scroll wheel up and down for changing speed, right and left for changing following distance. I have it set up where one tap on the stalk gives me adaptive cruise and two taps gives me Autopilot, but this can be configured in the preferences, like many other things.
* Headlights. They're fully automatic, and they work. In fact, just tonight I went for my first night drive with the new software that enables the adaptive headlights. It's pretty cool, the high beams stay on and it just dims the part of the beam that is shining at oncoming traffic, so you can see MUCH more clearly. I definitely appreciate that, as the local deer population seems to be thriving this year (there are nine of them out in my yard as I type this).
* Wipers. Also fully automatic, but if you want to wash or just do a quick extra swipe of the wipers, there's a button for that on the left stalk.
* Start/stop. This isn't even a thing in the Tesla. Get in and hit the brakes, it's started. Come to a stop and get out and it's off. It locks when you walk away and unlocks when you return without touching a thing.
So yeah, I don't think the Tesla UI is "poor human factors". Almost anything you want that doesn't function through the buttons on the steering wheel or stalks is a simple voice command away... And many things that used to require buttons are simply fully automated instead. So don't knock it until you've actually tried it (more than once).
bluesky74656
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The auto shifting is about 85%. Two scenarios consistently make it fail:
- Parking in the middle of a driveway. It doesn’t know if you want to go forward or backward, so it usually guesses forward, which is usually wrong.
- Backing down a long driveway. I don’t know if it’s a time thing or a speed thing, but by the time I get out on the street it won’t present the auto shift at all and I have to manually swipe from reverse to forward. I’ll take that over the convoluted shifters in most other brands.
The other thing you didn’t mention is the buttons for turn signal, which I’d say is a 95% improvement and 5% of the time I realize I should have used my turn signal after I started the turn and it’s a pain to get to at that point. This one is 100% not an issue on Full Self Drive, though, which does a large percentage of my driving.
Also, the automated doors are life changing. If it’s just me I don’t have to touch a door handle on the inside or outside.
Mine is a 2023 Model X
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Ed Haywood
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Shifting an EV? 
Shifting an EV?
Forward/reverse maybe?
Velocity173
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Listen, I know you love Teslas but China is ahead the US in EV tech at a much lower cost. If it weren’t for tariffs, they’d dominate here. Watch the vids from the guy from Out of Spec Reviews. He loves Teslas but he’s also been to China and personally driven their cars. Tesla is no longer leading the way. Everyone else has caught up and it shows from their first quarter sales report. Only gonna get worse.
Cap'n Jack
Final Approach
I can buy one, if I'm in China:
经销商
I'll note that CATL only announced the battery. They supply batteries to many automobile producers. That means we'll see other cars with these batteries in a couple of years, maybe longer. For Tesla, maybe 5 years. Tesla used to be seen as innovative. Now, their products are average, at best. BMW and Hyundai will use those batteries first. There's many cars with longer range (https://www.cars.com/articles/electric-vehicles-with-the-longest-range-422227/) and that doesn't count Chinese manufacturers, where NIO has a car that runs over 650 miles on a charge (https://www.nio.com/et7). Tesla has a habit of pre-announcing products way ahead of reality- just look at the title of this thread: "Tesla Model 3- Finally". The cybertruck was announced in 2019, with the first deliveries in 2023- it took 3 years from announcement to production.
I'll also note that CATL is a Chinese company. China is far ahead of the USA, and the rest of the world, in battery production. In fact, CATL is a little slow. BYW has a fast charging car on sale now, while CATL just announced the battery. CATL announced a sodium battery what- 3 days ago? I could buy a sodium battery powered car for over a year now- if I lived in China!
I used to think Tesla was great. I used to think Boeing was great, too. Tesla isn't innovative anymore, and both Tesla and Boeing have quality problems. I don't need to cite Boeing's issues with this group, and it is easy to find reports of cybertrucks losing their panels.
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Does the Tesla have a deadzone for temp setting?
FastEddieB
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This was just posted to a Tesla forum I frequent:
If it comes to pass, it would provide welcome relief for those who live in or frequent “Supercharger deserts”, such as the one surrounding our N GA home ( lower center in Mineral Bluff, GA):
Right now, the nearest Supercharger is Chattanooga. We can Level 2 charge at either home, so for us it’s not a problem, but for those who can’t charge at home, or the many tourists that frequent the area, there are numerous Walmarts all over the region. Plus, it sets up another profit center for Walmart, less susceptible to tariff nonsense. Win/Win!
If it comes to pass, it would provide welcome relief for those who live in or frequent “Supercharger deserts”, such as the one surrounding our N GA home ( lower center in Mineral Bluff, GA):
Right now, the nearest Supercharger is Chattanooga. We can Level 2 charge at either home, so for us it’s not a problem, but for those who can’t charge at home, or the many tourists that frequent the area, there are numerous Walmarts all over the region. Plus, it sets up another profit center for Walmart, less susceptible to tariff nonsense. Win/Win!
Ed Haywood
Final Approach
This was just posted to a Tesla forum I frequent:
If it comes to pass, it would provide welcome relief for those who live in or frequent “Supercharger deserts”, such as the one surrounding our N GA home ( lower center in Mineral Bluff, GA):
Right now, the nearest Supercharger is Chattanooga. We can Level 2 charge at either home, so for us it’s not a problem, but for those who can’t charge at home, or the many tourists that frequent the area, there are numerous Walmarts all over the region. Plus, it sets up another profit center for Walmart, less susceptible to tariff nonsense. Win/Win!
But Infrastructure!
Is that not normal? My almost ten year old Subaru has that. Just hit "Auto", set the temp and it runs the heat or AC however necessary to reach that setting. I, maybe naively, thought all cars had that now.
SoonerAviator
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Yeah, I've had automatic climate control in most every vehicle I've owned since the early-90s. Certainly some of them are a bit better than others at maintaining a consistent temperature, but it's still usually just something you learn after the first few weeks of owning it (i.e. 68F may feel normal in one vehicle, but too cold in another).
Velocity173
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You see Mccaysville put in Tesla destination chargers in downtown? Only 11KW but if you’re there for a couple of hours it’s enough to get you home.This was just posted to a Tesla forum I frequent:
If it comes to pass, it would provide welcome relief for those who live in or frequent “Supercharger deserts”, such as the one surrounding our N GA home ( lower center in Mineral Bluff, GA):
Right now, the nearest Supercharger is Chattanooga. We can Level 2 charge at either home, so for us it’s not a problem, but for those who can’t charge at home, or the many tourists that frequent the area, there are numerous Walmarts all over the region. Plus, it sets up another profit center for Walmart, less susceptible to tariff nonsense. Win/Win!
FastEddieB
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I did not see that. Found it. I’ll have to check it out next time we’re down that way.
flyingcheesehead
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I don't have those, I still have two stalks and just the scroll wheels on the steering wheel.
Yep. They still use D, R, and usually P. Some of them also have an "L" or "B" setting with increased regenerative braking.Shifting an EV?
OK. I don't read Chinese. It just sounded like this was a thing they demonstrated on a concept car a month ago, not something that was actually in production. If so, great!
But how is it that Tesla has been doing so well in China up until this quarter?
Why longer for Tesla? If these batteries are as good as they're being hyped up to be, I would expect them to appear at the next refresh of any of CATL's customers' vehicles. S and X are due for Tesla.
In many ways, yes. However, I do think their infotainment and mobile apps are far ahead of everyone else.
I'm the one who started this thread, and I called it that because I finally bought one, not because they finally came out. I could have theoretically bought one 3+ years earlier than I did.
Yes, we all know about "Elon time". But usually when he makes some pronouncement of something they're going do everyone says "You can't do that!" And they don't do it on schedule, but they still do it.
That is where Tesla's joking tagline comes from: "Tesla: Making the impossible merely late."
Yes, most cars in the past 30 years have had that, in theory. They do enough to check that box on the brochure and no more.
The difference is, I don't have to fiddle with it on the Tesla. I have never before had a car where that was the case. Set it to "Auto", then adjust the temperature and fan speed seventeen times over the course of my drive because they didn't consider all the variables that affect comfort. I don't know how Tesla does it, but I do think they're doing more than just measuring the air temp at one place inside the cabin.
tspear
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Interesting that Walmart is getting into the game. Very vague on lots of the answers, but kind of what you expect. There is not a lot they can "reveal", and I expect local power and other items will be much larger factors.
I am kinda curious if this is going to be tied into Walmart's regular overhaul/update/recapitalization plans. e.g. Focus initially on rollout where it is easy, or it is part of a planned major construction effort already planned.
Tim
I am kinda curious if this is going to be tied into Walmart's regular overhaul/update/recapitalization plans. e.g. Focus initially on rollout where it is easy, or it is part of a planned major construction effort already planned.
Tim
flyingcheesehead
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Much of Electrify America's network is already located at Wal-Marts. They may see that it's somewhat advantageous to their business to have a captive audience for a short time...
Cap'n Jack
Final Approach
Are they doing so well? Their sales number is increasing but their market share is tanking. The total number of e-cars is increasing but Tesla is getting a small share of those new cars.
From luxury to everyday: Tesla’s China fight
The EV leader’s decline in global sales and China market share spells trouble
www.fdiintelligence.com
Neither of us know the details of the partnerships with CATL, and therefore the amount of con-current product testing and design. I would have expected that there would be a concurrent announcement of prototype or concept cars as you thought was done with BYD if there was parallel development. Given the lack of concept car announcements, I would expect a time period for CATLs customers to do their own testing and evaluation. If the new battery has a different form-factor, they need to make physical changes and that takes time. There will be software changes as well. Based on my experience with new product development and upgrades, it will be a year or two before I can buy those cars. As for why it will take longer for Tesla, see your comment below, and their noted lack of innovation
"Elon time" shouldn't apply to keeping a product line fresh. This isn't a case of "you can't do that"- it more of "why aren't you doing what others have already done?"
Electric cars aren't impossible anymore- they are mainstream. Yet Tesla is still late.That is where Tesla's joking tagline comes from: "Tesla: Making the impossible merely late."
That's only part of owning a car. I've a mobile app for one of my cars, but I don't use it. I still prefer a Garmin to other mapping options I've tried. But that's just me.
Elon has done a great job of bringing electric cars to the world, but they are here and made by many companies. Perhaps it is time to sell Tesla off to someone that is better at incremental improvements than he is, and he can concentrate on "making the impossible late".
FWIW, my ten year old Subaru is "set it and forget it" also. Changes which vents are used, ac v heat, fan speed all that.
Love that idea. It would be very cool to see the boring company and neuralink amount to something.
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you mean sell off his less than 15% of tesla?
Cap'n Jack
Final Approach
I don't understand. For example, Chrysler combined with Stellantis. Shares in Tesla would be exchanged for shares in another company.
jesse
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Elon isn’t CEO because he owns Tesla stock — he’s CEO because the Board, elected by the shareholders, wants him there. He could sell every share he owns tomorrow and still be CEO if the Board kept him. Or, he could keep every share and get fired the next day if they wanted. Minority ownership gives influence, not immunity.
Cap'n Jack
Final Approach
That's right. So why can't Tesla be merged with another company that can manage it in its current business model? The current board and CEO seem to be resting on their laurels. The brand really needs a refresh. The current governing board seems better at getting disruptive technology to market.
hindsight2020
Final Approach
meme stock. Everything comes to a head eventually.
flyingcheesehead
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The Model 3 came out in the latter half of 2017 and has had a minor (in 2021) and a major (in 2024) refresh - As I've always understood it, most car companies alternate minor-major with a refresh about every four years, so the 3 fits right in with that. The Y came out in 2020 and just got a major refresh. It's just that you don't hear about them because it's not some big stupendous thing like a car with a sub-2-second zero to 60 or the first electric semi or whatever else is going to change the world this week - It's just an update to an existing car.
...because it sucks! I've had mobile apps on my last 5 cars. I used the Ford app occasionally, the BMW app not at all, the GM app rarely. But I use the Tesla app all the time because it has excellent functionality.
The vast majority of the world uses Google Maps; Tesla is the only company that has Google Maps built into the factory infotainment system. Everyone else just phones it in with CarPlay and Android Auto.
Yeah, at this point I'm pretty much done with him. I don't think he's brought any new value to Tesla in the last couple of years. I think they have other people who could do better at this point.
Cap'n Jack
Final Approach
Yet there isn't any use of newer battery technology. Where are Tesla's 650 miles per charge cars?
This assumes facts not in evidence. You don't know which car I'm talking about. I don't have the need to use a car app- there's no value in it for me. I walk into the garage, open the door, start the car, and go to work. After work, I go get into the car, start the engine, and go home. The car automatically heats or cools to a comfortable level in a few minutes. I see no reason to remotely start the engine. The car reminds me of service visits. There was simply nothing on the app appealed to me. To me, it was like having an app for a push broom- not needed.
A significant portion of the world (by population) uses Baidu maps; Tencent and Gaode maps are also common there. I'm pretty sure Tesla uses Baidu in China. Cars used to have factory- installed navigation features, but they disappeared sometime during COVID. The rental cars I used had them, until they didn't. I'm happier with the UI that Garmin provides. "Everyone else" also uses iOS Carplay (this appears on the car screen when I connect an apple phone), so apple maps are available. Waze is also popular with my colleagues because the interface is still better than google maps (waze is owned by google) for traffic issues. Carplay gives people a choice of the mapping software they want to use.
Apps and infotainment are very subjective, and discussing them stray from things like fit and finish (panels falling off?), and the use of current technology for batteries.
Ed Haywood
Final Approach
Examples of when a car app is handy:
1. Checking charge status.
2. Changing charge setting for a trip.
3. Finding the car in a big parking lot (map). Good for sporting events.
4. Chirping the lights or horn from greater range or than key fob or through structure. Good for parking deck.
5. Managing and scheduling service.
6. Syncing your map system with your calendar.
7. Not having to carry a key or key fob.
I mean it's not life changing or anything, but it is well executed, like most of the Tesla product experience.
That's the thing about Tesla (and by extension, Musk). They took the Apple method of product design and applied it to the car ownership experience.
1. Checking charge status.
2. Changing charge setting for a trip.
3. Finding the car in a big parking lot (map). Good for sporting events.
4. Chirping the lights or horn from greater range or than key fob or through structure. Good for parking deck.
5. Managing and scheduling service.
6. Syncing your map system with your calendar.
7. Not having to carry a key or key fob.
I mean it's not life changing or anything, but it is well executed, like most of the Tesla product experience.
That's the thing about Tesla (and by extension, Musk). They took the Apple method of product design and applied it to the car ownership experience.
Cap'n Jack
Final Approach
I was wondering what the Tesla app did. I thank you for listing the features.
I still have traditional gasoline cars, so #1 and 2 don't apply to me, although I can see the purpose for them in an electric vehicle. I drive my own vehicles so rarely on trips that #2 isn't useful for me. My phone does #3 (as does the my car app), I don't use it. Likewise, my car app does #4- I don't use it. My car does #5 itself. #6- I don't use it. #7- I don't use it either as I need t bring a keychain anyway. My cars recognize the fob and unlock the door for me.
I have no doubt that the Tesla app is well executed. My car app has those functions appearing as buttons to choose the feature and I had no trouble using it when I played with it. I suspect the rest of the car manufacturers have user experiences that are good enough. I'm probably an outlier, but the slate truck mentioned in another thread would probably serve my needs sufficiently well for 95% of my driving.
FastEddieB
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Tesla also came up with an Apple Watch app which can be pretty handy if you don't have your phone with you (screenshot, not mine)...
Ed Haywood
Final Approach
That's fine, I'm not trying to sell you a Tesla. I agree, EV's gain more utility from an App. A point that Tesla was first to establish, and which is now an expectation.
I also agree about CarPlay / Android Auto. Most car interfaces are still notoriously clunky. I just bought a Jeep Wrangler and I love the vehicle, but I can barely force myself to touch the uConnect screen. It is a crazy jumble of icons and writing, like a middle school class programmed it. I just want to plug my phone in and go straight to Google and Spotify.
Tesla is the only interface I have seen that fully meets Silicon Valley standards for useability.
tspear
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#1 and #2; I look when I get out of the car to know. I was taught this as a teen, so I always know how much fuel is in the car; or what the charge was when I briefly had a used Leaf (it was T-Boned and totaled less than a month after getting it). Same when I have rented EVs. Where I grew up, the gas stations with cheap gas were very inconveniently located to my impatient mind. So, I had to do some planning.
#3, I have for close to twenty years now, when I get out of the care use the phone camera to take a picture of the spot number, markings... whatever to find my car. When my wife is with me, I will forward the image/info to her so we have two phones with it. I have used Google maps to mark a "parked here", but that usually is more hassle.
#4. See #3. No need. I have a key fob just in case.
#5. Never did this. Recent Subaru purchase, I might try it.
#6. Built into the phone, and I use Android Auto. So click on the event click on location, choose open in maps (I do not assign a default, since I might want Uber/Lyft instead). And I am good to go.
#7. Meh, I get it. e.g. Years ago, had a MB with a key card in my wallet. But not enough of an incentive for me.
Tim
Cap'n Jack
Final Approach
I didn't think that you were selling me anything. I was comparing it to something I'm more familiar with.
I understand what you really want to say- that it works better than most apps. However, "silicon valley standards for usability" is a rather low bar now. Too many formerly good programs/apps have become ensh!ttified.
(this is the guy who coined the term: https://doctorow.medium.com/https-p...04-teach-me-how-to-shruggie-kagi-caaa88c221f2 )
What could Tesla do to impress me?
- Use those new 500+ mile batteries as a way to provide limited backup power for a house. Maybe a refrigerator and freezer, a couple of lights. Most people seem to be happy with ~300 mile range, so use the excess capacity for emergencies.
- Use the new high capacity batteries to help with cold range. Rate the car for 300 miles in all weather.
- Be an early adapter for the solid state batteries China is prototyping- this helps with cold weather range, too.
What would impress you?
Velocity173
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Yeah I use the app a lot. Pretty much required if getting service. Good luck trying to talk to a human. Of course my last service I went from half shaft replacement to now a rattling in the suspension. Thanks Tesla customer service. Of course they’re so disorganized they haven’t even charged me a bill yet. Service just shows bill as “resolved.” So I guess it was free. Thanks Tesla customer service.
App is good for checking up on charge stats. It’s good for precondition, climate control. Summon if you have FSD. Of course you can use as your key but since I have other keys attached to the fob, I just use the fob.
Don’t use android CarPlay. Like aircraft, I like things that are built into the panel. I use free Spotify / LiveOne.
App is good for checking up on charge stats. It’s good for precondition, climate control. Summon if you have FSD. Of course you can use as your key but since I have other keys attached to the fob, I just use the fob.
Don’t use android CarPlay. Like aircraft, I like things that are built into the panel. I use free Spotify / LiveOne.
Ed Haywood
Final Approach
I'm not looking to be impressed. I think the big innovations phase of the market is done. I think now EV's are entering a commodity phase, where many producers compete for temporary market advantage through incremental improvements in technology, design, and price/quality.
From Tesla, I would like to see continued maturity into a boring legacy car company concerned with the things that other car makers learned years ago. Fit and finish, reliability, comfy seats, union contracts, super bowl ads, etc.
I do think they don't get credit for the full range of their innovations. Beyond the obvious, being first to mass market with a viable fleet of electric vehicles, look at some of the other ways they turned the industry on its head: infotainment system, large screen, mobile app, charging network, direct Internet sales, mobile service network, etc. A few of those, like the supercharger network and direct sales, were baller moves that no legacy company would have dared attempt first.
I've always thought the ICE vs EV debate was silly. Both have good use cases and bad ones. I own one of each and probably always will.
But it's worth recalling Elon's original rationale for getting into the business. It wasn't climate change or Mars. It was raw business acumen. He saw that ICE engine technology had reached the point where 99% of improvements have been found. Car makers are spending billions chasing.01% improvements in engine performance and efficiency. Whereas EV technology is at the bottom end of an exponential improvement curve. He reasoned that getting a jump start on that curve could make him very rich. And now he is the richest man in the world, so it looks like a good call.
Velocity173
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Yeah but he originally presented himself as a “green friendly” businessman. He’s walked back his early comments in climate change in recent years. Ultimately though I look at him like a John Delorean. I don’t think either one puts much importance into anything other than personal wealth and market dominance. A capitalist.
hindsight2020
Final Approach
Glad that got brought it up, not the first person to bring that up in recent conversations. Delorean is indeed an apt segway for this meme stock in present circumstances.
Musk's net worth now and for a while now has been tied to all those juicy govco contracts, $38 billion in seed money and combined political influence over the course of a decade and a half. Nice grift if you can get it. Genius? Nah, just another welfare queen. Not the only one in fairness, just the biggest one.
Always the third base hospital born, yapping the longest about hitting triples. To wit, being conniving is one of many intersecting items of nominal intelligence; then again so are sociopathic tendencies. Genius that does not make.
Musk's net worth now and for a while now has been tied to all those juicy govco contracts, $38 billion in seed money and combined political influence over the course of a decade and a half. Nice grift if you can get it. Genius? Nah, just another welfare queen. Not the only one in fairness, just the biggest one.
Always the third base hospital born, yapping the longest about hitting triples. To wit, being conniving is one of many intersecting items of nominal intelligence; then again so are sociopathic tendencies. Genius that does not make.
Ed Haywood
Final Approach
It's almost like he correctly identified his initial customer base and presented himself and his company in a way that appealed to them. Like any good CEO.