Tell me about Twins...

Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by TimRF79, Aug 7, 2019.

  1. TimRF79

    TimRF79 Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2017
    Messages:
    156
    Location:
    Houston, TX
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Tim
    Currently own a Bellanca Super Viking.
    Instrument Check ride Scheduled for 08/19
    Now I am thinking, if I want to fly in real IFR and over water, a second engine may sure be nice.

    What would be a good starter Twin for ~$100k, considering I am 6'6" and with my wife, our combined human weight is already ~450lbs
     
  2. woodchucker

    woodchucker Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2014
    Messages:
    1,090
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    woodchucker
    Ohhhhh you mean twin engine airplanes.
     
  3. TimRF79

    TimRF79 Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2017
    Messages:
    156
    Location:
    Houston, TX
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Tim
    Well any other Twin stories, will have to be proven with pictures
     
  4. Caramon13

    Caramon13 Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    May 18, 2015
    Messages:
    2,047
    Location:
    Sarasota, FL
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Romeo
    Baron or 310 come to mind or twin comanche

    I always wanted an Aztec though..those things can carry a crap ton of stuff.
     
    denverpilot likes this.
  5. jsstevens

    jsstevens En-Route PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    May 18, 2007
    Messages:
    4,874
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    jsstevens
    And Piper Aztec.
     
    denverpilot and MIFlyer like this.
  6. Bill Jennings

    Bill Jennings Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2005
    Messages:
    10,452
    Location:
    Southeast Tennessee
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    This page intentionally left blank
  7. Dave Arata

    Dave Arata Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2016
    Messages:
    106
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Dave
  8. mwagg737

    mwagg737 Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2016
    Messages:
    182
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mooney man
    What do you want to know?

    I went from a Mooney to a 310. Love it!!
    Most of what I like is not having to pick a place to die if the engine quits at night, over inhospitable terrain, populated areas, ETC.
    The load carrying capacity is superior to any single engine out there.
    The cost is about 32% more to operate than a heavy hauler single. About 60% more to operate than my 4-cylinder Mooney was.
    The cabin is huge. We are not a small family, and we fit with room to spare.
    Oil changes are more expensive.
    It demands a higher level of attention during takeoff.
    Any of the non-trainer twins easily fly on one engine. My 310 has a 7,300-ft single engine service ceiling at gross weight.
    I burn 22 gallons an hour at just shy 180 knots. If I want to slow to 165 knots, I burn about 18 gallons an hour.

    Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk
     
  9. EdFred

    EdFred Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2005
    Messages:
    23,184
    Location:
    Michigan
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Ed Frederick
    Do you ever plan on going into unpaved strips? That can shift the answer a bit.
     
    denverpilot likes this.
  10. TimRF79

    TimRF79 Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2017
    Messages:
    156
    Location:
    Houston, TX
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Tim
    No planning on unpaved strips.
    What about Twin Comanches?
    How hard are 310's to land?
    What about maintenance cost?
     
  11. bradg33

    bradg33 Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2012
    Messages:
    1,472
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Esquire99
    I have a Super Viking ('72 w/ the IO520) with a few partners. After flying it for a few years, my wife and I bought a Twin Bonanza, mainly for the reasons you express (overwater, IFR, night, etc.). The bottom line: it's much, much more expensive. The second engine is great piece of mind, for sure. The space and load hauling capability is phenomenal (I've got a 1200lb PAYLOAD, meaning 1200lbs after it's full of fuel) and more luggage space than we've been able to fill. But it's much, much more expensive. Fuel bills suck. Oil bills suck. Hangar bills suck (mine needs a big hangar). Ramp/handling fees are higher for twins. Your maintenance exposure is higher (2 engines, 2x every accessory, etc.). You're going to think they all handle like trucks coming from a BSV.

    Is it worth it? Maybe.
     
    Martin Pauly and shooter6947 like this.
  12. Skip Miller

    Skip Miller En-Route

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2005
    Messages:
    4,944
    Location:
    New York City
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Skip Miller
    Well, there is the Antonov AN-2 with a useful load of 4,700 lbs...

    -Skip
     
    pigpenracing and benyflyguy like this.
  13. MIFlyer

    MIFlyer Line Up and Wait PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2015
    Messages:
    958
    Location:
    Mercer Island, WA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    MIFlyer
    do you need time back in the support group for twin owners?

    To the original poster, I guess one thing you could think of is, how many twin pilots have you talked to that want to go back to a single? ALL of the twin pilots I've spoken with in person and online would not give up the benefits of their twin. Though they may have some low days (like Mr. G above), I literally haven't found one who wants out of theirs.
     
    GRG55, mwagg737 and schmookeeg like this.
  14. TimRF79

    TimRF79 Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2017
    Messages:
    156
    Location:
    Houston, TX
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Tim
    Are we talking about $20k annuals for a twin (since you said much, much more)?
    So far the things that ate my lunch on the Super Vikings was: 3 cylinder overhauled, landing gear overhauled, ADS-B updates, dual G5's, CGR-30 Combo.
    I see on a twin is more engine, but not more landing gear or avionics, right?
     
    mwagg737 likes this.
  15. EdFred

    EdFred Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2005
    Messages:
    23,184
    Location:
    Michigan
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Ed Frederick
    Heck you can have that on singles. Theres a A36 in the mx shop that had an $80,000 annual last year.
     
  16. bradg33

    bradg33 Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2012
    Messages:
    1,472
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Esquire99
    No, mainly consumables. Buying fuel 100+ gallons at a time. Buying oil 2 cases at a time, etc. My annual was relatively cheap, but I also do a lot of owner-assisted work to keep costs down.

    Like I said, places you can get bit are the things you now have multiples of: cylinders (now you've got 8-12), mags (now you've got 4), starters (2), and so on and so forth.

    As noted above, there are good days and bad days. There are days I think about selling my twin and sticking with my Viking (usually when I'm not flying the twin or putting fuel in the twin), then there are days I love my twin (usually when I'm flying it).
     
  17. Lance F

    Lance F En-Route PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2005
    Messages:
    2,525
    Location:
    GA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Lance F
    Define your mission. If the twin fits that mission better than a single, get one. Spirit Airlines (or equivalent) will always be cheaper.
     
  18. SoonerAviator

    SoonerAviator En-Route PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2014
    Messages:
    4,543
    Location:
    Broken Arrow, OK
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    SoonerAviator
    Maybe if you don’t quite need Aztec payload, consider a Grumman Cougar?

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2019
    a572mike, N1120A and denverpilot like this.
  19. SinkorSwim

    SinkorSwim Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2008
    Messages:
    163
    Location:
    St. Charles MO or WDW Fla
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    HFC1969
    I love these threads!

    Can’t get enough of my lil’ twin. I look at it this way; those big fuel & annual invoices are just earning my wife credit card points. :)
     
    Banjo33 likes this.
  20. flyingcheesehead

    flyingcheesehead Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2005
    Messages:
    22,494
    Location:
    UQACY, WI
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    iMooniac
    Twin Comanches are probably the best economical twin you can buy. They perform similarly to high-performance singles for not much more fuel burn, and their systems are fairly simple and bulletproof. There's a lot to like about them, and I wanted one for long enough that I know an awful lot about them despite only having about an hour or two logged in them. Be aware that there are quite a few mods that are no longer available, so do your research and buy one that has any mods you think you want to have.

    More recently, I did a ton of research into 310s, considering one for the next plane. I did a "brain dump" on that subject here: All about Cessna 310s

    As far as maintenance, it will cost more... But not double. Yes, you have two engines, and two of a lot of other things, and some additional systems (like the Janitrol-style cabin heaters), but you only have one set of a lot of other things. I think a budget of $80/hr for maintenance on a normally aspirated light twin is reasonable, provided you fly it enough and are proactive about maintenance. Of course, that only evens out over a long time span (probably 8-10 years) and you need to have the ability to cough up five figures in a heartbeat if necessary, so be prepared for that. But, some of that can happen to you in a single too.
     
  21. TimRF79

    TimRF79 Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2017
    Messages:
    156
    Location:
    Houston, TX
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Tim
    OK sounds 310s are a good option, what about the Aztec?
    What is the order of recommendation?

    Mission would be to take one or twice a year a 1,000 mile trip over open water and have safety margin in IFR condition.
    Bascially more a travel plane than a 50mile fun plane
     
  22. Greg Bockelman

    Greg Bockelman Administrator Management Council Member

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2005
    Messages:
    9,776
    Location:
    Yona (Say Joan ya), Guam
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Greg Bockelman
    I personally am partial to Twinkies but it sort of sounds like a 310 is more in line with what you need
     
  23. TimRF79

    TimRF79 Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2017
    Messages:
    156
    Location:
    Houston, TX
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Tim
    What are the difference from 310 to 340 to 337?
    Let me rephrase, is a 340 a pressurized 310 and this adds a ton more cost at annual?
    And requires another endorsement?
     
  24. dans2992

    dans2992 En-Route

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2013
    Messages:
    3,305
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Dans2992
    I’ve had a couple rides in a 340, and man... they’re nice. Are they that much more in operating costs than a 310?

    Personally, I’m pretty frugal. Weighing the risk of flying a single vs cost of flying the twin... I might just personally decide to “roll the dice”. :)
     
  25. denverpilot

    denverpilot Taxi to Parking

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2009
    Messages:
    49,508
    Location:
    Denver, CO
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    DenverPilot
    Damn that’s pretty. I didn’t know those existed.
     
    N1120A likes this.
  26. Timbeck2

    Timbeck2 Final Approach

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2015
    Messages:
    6,382
    Location:
    Vail, Arizona
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Timbeck2
    Me likey!
     
    N1120A and denverpilot like this.
  27. IK04

    IK04 Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2018
    Messages:
    1,180
    Location:
    Copperas Cove, Texas
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    LNXGUY
    I started my multi-engine training in a Dutchess and a Cougar and finished in a Seneca.

    Read the story about the certification process that was invented just for the Dutchess. The actually spin tested it! Great read!
     
    denverpilot likes this.
  28. jsstevens

    jsstevens En-Route PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    May 18, 2007
    Messages:
    4,874
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    jsstevens
    The first flying club I belonged to had one. I never flew it but based on club experience they are solid in the Grumman Iron Works tradition. They are also fairly rare.
     
    denverpilot likes this.
  29. Greg Bockelman

    Greg Bockelman Administrator Management Council Member

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2005
    Messages:
    9,776
    Location:
    Yona (Say Joan ya), Guam
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Greg Bockelman
    Didn’t Ron have one for awhile?
     
    Ghery and denverpilot like this.
  30. brien23

    brien23 Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    May 31, 2005
    Messages:
    1,127
    Location:
    Oak Harbor
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Brien
    Hard to find a better buy price wise than a used twin in the market today. Watch out for runout junk a twin can be a real money pit, don't get sucked into a twin with lots of goodies in the instrument panel they all cost money to keep going.
     
  31. muddy00

    muddy00 Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2014
    Messages:
    251
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    muddy00
    I’ll second a cougar. Love mine.
     

    Attached Files:

  32. jsstevens

    jsstevens En-Route PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    May 18, 2007
    Messages:
    4,874
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    jsstevens
    Nice example of one.
     
  33. SoonerAviator

    SoonerAviator En-Route PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2014
    Messages:
    4,543
    Location:
    Broken Arrow, OK
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    SoonerAviator
    You're who I thought of when I suggested it. Knew you had a pristine Cougar you could share info on.
     
  34. muddy00

    muddy00 Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2014
    Messages:
    251
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    muddy00
  35. SinkorSwim

    SinkorSwim Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2008
    Messages:
    163
    Location:
    St. Charles MO or WDW Fla
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    HFC1969
    denverpilot and mwagg737 like this.
  36. MIFlyer

    MIFlyer Line Up and Wait PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2015
    Messages:
    958
    Location:
    Mercer Island, WA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    MIFlyer
    +1 to this. John @diamondaire knows the PA23s. Also, our own Ted has extensive time in an Aztec, 310 and 414.
     
    denverpilot likes this.
  37. TimRF79

    TimRF79 Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2017
    Messages:
    156
    Location:
    Houston, TX
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Tim
    Chatted a bit with my mechanic, his first choice would be a Twin Commanche followed by a Baron.
    He is not a big fan of 310's as he expects annuals in the $5k- $10k range.
    He did not comment on an Aztec or Senneca, but I did not ask.

    His own plane is a Grumman (Single), but I think a Cougar may be hard to find and then hard to upgrade Avionics (lack of STC's)?
     
  38. SoonerAviator

    SoonerAviator En-Route PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2014
    Messages:
    4,543
    Location:
    Broken Arrow, OK
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    SoonerAviator
    What does an STC have to do with upgrading avionics?
     
  39. BarryCooper

    BarryCooper Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2015
    Messages:
    117
    Location:
    Raymond MS
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    BarryCooper
    I got my CMEL in a Cougar. Very easy to fly and it will stall before it gets to VMC
     
  40. Caramon13

    Caramon13 Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    May 18, 2015
    Messages:
    2,047
    Location:
    Sarasota, FL
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Romeo
    I dunno, if you look around town in the right places you can probably find a lot of Cougars, many have no STD's. Oh damn..I read that all wrong didn't I?