TEL Factory

Roller said:
Not having a 100LL factory or two in the US was always crazy
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It was a logical move based on a combo of business economics, health/enviro science, and regs. I would call that logic more sane than crazy.
 
455 Bravo Uniform said:
It was a logical move based on a combo of business economics, health/enviro science, and regs. I would call that logic more sane than crazy.
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Economics of shipping it here, doesn’t make sense to not have a local supply

Health/enviro, real (non debunked) studies have shown no issue

Regs, don’t see anything in the CFRs

Logistics, lots and lots rely on 100LL here

So no good reason we don’t have at least a few plants safe stateside

According to AI we have 100LL manufacturing here? Hard to get a straight answer
 
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Roller said:
Health/enviro, real (non debunked) studies have shown no issue
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TEL is in no way a safe compound. That has been long established, and anyone who tries to argue otherwise is certifiably nuts. If you are referring to 100LL avgas specifically and its environmental footprint, that is a different story. However - and this is the key point - the only reason 100LL has a negligible impact is because of how little is actually burned. 100LL actually has double the TEL concentration than leaded auto gas did.
Roller said:
According to AI we have 100LL manufacturing here? Hard to get a straight answer
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...and this is why AI isn't ready for prime time. Innospec is the only (legal) manufacturer of TEL in the entire world. They are in the UK. US companies do produce avgas, but the TEL they use to make it is imported from Innospec.
 
traumamed said:
TEL is in no way a safe compound. That has been long established, and anyone who tries to argue otherwise is certifiably nuts. If you are referring to 100LL avgas specifically and its environmental footprint, that is a different story. However - and this is the key point - the only reason 100LL has a negligible impact is because of how little is actually burned. 100LL actually has double the TEL concentration than leaded auto gas did.

...and this is why AI isn't ready for prime time. Innospec is the only (legal) manufacturer of TEL in the entire world. They are in the UK. US companies do produce avgas, but the TEL they use to make it is imported from Innospec.
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Well most everything is dangerous it too high a amount, including water.

100LL is safe, time proven, as we really need to be able to make this stuff domestically, especially if we want to continue as the world leader in aviation
 
Roller said:
Well most everything is dangerous it too high a amount, including water.

100LL is safe, time proven, as we really need to be able to make this stuff domestically, especially if we want to continue as the world leader in aviation
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Tell me you're not comparing TEL to water. Lol.

Look, I'm not a 100LL basher. I fly a plane that cannot run any of the UL alternatives, and I do not apologize for that. We still shouldn't use our dependence on 100LL as an excuse to ignore the fact that it contains 0.56g/L of a substance that is ridiculously dangerous to life.

Much of the general public is already ambivalent toward GA, or has somewhat negative feelings towards it. Well, the 100LL-burning segment of GA is the "poorest" segment of GA. In the long run, we can't win this. We don't have the political clout. The day is eventually going to come when we are going to be forced into an alternative. Sitting around and saying, "well, it's worked for the past 100 years" and "don't tread on me" isn't going to work.

I would much rather have a viable solution than be caught with my pants down when the FAA finally says that they aren't going to protect the "right" to 100LL anymore.
 
traumamed said:
Tell me you're not comparing TEL to water. Lol.

Look, I'm not a 100LL basher. I fly a plane that cannot run any of the UL alternatives, and I do not apologize for that. We still shouldn't use our dependence on 100LL as an excuse to ignore the fact that it contains 0.56g/L of a substance that is ridiculously dangerous to life.

Much of the general public is already ambivalent toward GA, or has somewhat negative feelings towards it. Well, the 100LL-burning segment of GA is the "poorest" segment of GA. In the long run, we can't win this. We don't have the political clout. The day is eventually going to come when we are going to be forced into an alternative. Sitting around and saying, "well, it's worked for the past 100 years" and "don't tread on me" isn't going to work.

I would much rather have a viable solution than be caught with my pants down when the FAA finally says that they aren't going to protect the "right" to 100LL anymore.
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I am

More people die each year from water than 100LL, full stop



Too much of ANYTHING is bad, the tiny trace in 100LL is a nothing burger

Study after study after study show this

The only ones that show otherwise were skewed and proven so in many studies and lawsuits

There is ZERO logical scientific reason to try to ban 100LL

It will majorly degrade general aviation in the US, it will majorly degrade our ability to produce more pilots for everyone from military to airlines to medevac to cargo.

It’s cutting a appendage off for no good reason
 
Roller said:
I am

More people die each year from water than 100LL, full stop



Too much of ANYTHING is bad, the tiny trace in 100LL is a nothing burger

Study after study after study show this

The only ones that show otherwise were skewed and proven so in many studies and lawsuits

There is ZERO logical scientific reason to try to ban 100LL

It will majorly degrade general aviation in the US, it will majorly degrade our ability to produce more pilots for everyone from military to airlines to medevac to cargo.

It’s cutting a appendage off for no good reason
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Go drink 10 mL (a third of an ounce) of TEL then, and report back with your findings about toxicity.

Regardless, you and I can disagree or agree on TEL all day long. It doesn't matter. Don't kid yourself into thinking we have any say in what happens with 100LL. If Innospec decides they don't want to make TEL anymore, nothing and no one can force them to continue. The likelihood another entity would step in and start synthesizing it is near zero. The phasing out of production has always been the biggest risk. Politics are a distant second.

We need to adapt or we will not survive. We still have time, but we don't have forever. The folks over at GAMI, and other developers, should really be getting more support from us and less side-eyes, questioning of motives, and conspiracy theories.
 
traumamed said:
Go drink 10 mL (a third of an ounce) of TEL then, and report back with your findings about toxicity.

Regardless, you and I can disagree or agree on TEL all day long. It doesn't matter. Don't kid yourself into thinking we have any say in what happens with 100LL. If Innospec decides they don't want to make TEL anymore, nothing and no one can force them to continue. The likelihood another entity would step in and start synthesizing it is near zero. The phasing out of production has always been the biggest risk. Politics are a distant second.

We need to adapt or we will not survive. We still have time, but we don't have forever. The folks over at GAMI, and other developers, should really be getting more support from us and less side-eyes, questioning of motives, and conspiracy theories.
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Innospec is what came of Octel after the latter filed for bankruptcy. If that doesn't tell you how dire things are I don't know what will
 
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traumamed said:
Go drink 10 mL (a third of an ounce) of TEL then, and report back with your findings about toxicity.

Regardless, you and I can disagree or agree on TEL all day long. It doesn't matter. Don't kid yourself into thinking we have any say in what happens with 100LL. If Innospec decides they don't want to make TEL anymore, nothing and no one can force them to continue. The likelihood another entity would step in and start synthesizing it is near zero. The phasing out of production has always been the biggest risk. Politics are a distant second.

We need to adapt or we will not survive. We still have time, but we don't have forever. The folks over at GAMI, and other developers, should really be getting more support from us and less side-eyes, questioning of motives, and conspiracy theories.
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lol, what?

Go drink 10ml of TONS of stuff thats “acceptable” go to autozone and work your way down the isle lol

So let’s be honest, do more people directly provable die from their bathtubs or 100ll per year?

Adapt or we will not survive, outlaw everything but showers with no tubs?

Let’s be honest please
 
Roller said:
lol, what?

Go drink 10ml of TONS of stuff thats “acceptable” go to autozone and work your way down the isle lol

So let’s be honest, do more people directly provable die from their bathtubs or 100ll per year?
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If you want to drink antifreeze go ahead.

The difference is you have a choice. When we're burning lead other people don't have the choice not to.
 
Racerx said:
If you want to drink antifreeze go ahead.

The difference is you have a choice. When we're burning lead other people don't have the choice not to.
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Show me where the 172 flying overhead had caused notable damage to anyone

Just to save time, don’t pick a paid for study that has been debunked

Spoiler alert, there are no studies that show this
 
Roller said:
Adapt or we will not survive, outlaw everything but showers with no tubs?

Let’s be honest please
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How much of the US population has any direct use whatsoever for 100LL? That's the percentage of the US population that will care if you and I can't buy it anymore.

I don't really care that you and I disagree about the toxicity of TEL. I am fully aware of how bad TEL is without your assent. It doesn't stop me from burning 100LL because right now I don't have a choice. I sure wish I did. More importantly, I sure wish I wasn't relying on a fuel that is dependent on the whims of one single company in the entire world.
 
traumamed said:
How much of the US population has any direct use whatsoever for 100LL? That's the percentage of the US population that will care if you and I can't buy it anymore.

I don't really care that you and I disagree about the toxicity of TEL. I am fully aware of how bad TEL is without your assent. It doesn't stop me from burning 100LL because right now I don't have a choice. I sure wish I did. More importantly, I sure wish I wasn't relying on a fuel that is dependent on the whims of one single company in the entire world.
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I agree

And someone who has worked this industry and still works it, we need to be able to make domestic 100ll for major economic and strategic reasons, where do yall think the mass majority of our pilots come from?

You really want to go on population and who cares grounds? Slippery slope ya know



I did notice yall dodged the bathtubs vs 100ll deaths per year, so I mean how many Americans NEED a bathtub, let’s outlaw these death machines!! For the children! Right?
 
Roller said:
I agree

And someone who has worked this industry and still works it, we need to be able to make domestic 100ll for major economic and strategic reasons

You really want to go on population and who cares grounds? Slippery slope ya know
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It is probably a pipe dream to think TEL is going to be produced in the US again. I'm just trying to be realistic here.

There is always a slippery slope. No worries though, it isn't going to come to that. 100LL won't need to be legislated away. It is just going to cease to exist.

The fact is that 99% of Americans couldn't care less about 100LL. It would not surprise me if more than 50% of Americans don't even know what 100LL is. The loss of availability of 100LL might not even make the mainstream media if it happened in the middle of a relatively busy news cycle. If/when Innospec stops producing TEL, no one in Washington is going to waste their political capital on trying to bring TEL production back to the US.
 
traumamed said:
It is probably a pipe dream to think TEL is going to be produced in the US again. I'm just trying to be realistic here.

There is always a slippery slope. No worries though, it isn't going to come to that. 100LL won't need to be legislated away. It is just going to cease to exist.

The fact is that 99% of Americans couldn't care less about 100LL. It would not surprise me if more than 50% of Americans don't even know what 100LL is. The loss of availability of 100LL might not even make the mainstream media if it happened in the middle of a relatively busy news cycle. If/when Innospec stops producing TEL, no one in Washington is going to waste their political capital on trying to bring TEL production back to the US.
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And it will destroy many small business, training, time building opportunities, and be a major destruction to aviation in America

The sad part it will save ZERO lives

It will be destruction of industry and livelihoods for NOTHING
 
Roller said:
Why?

Because

a number <1 are killed by 100ll

A number >1 are killed by bathtubs
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You can argue about the safety of 100LL till you are blue in the face. It is totally irrelevant. If it can't be made because no one is synthesizing the TEL for it anymore, then it may as well be as safe as the long lost Frappuccino flavor you loved. You still can't get it.
 
traumamed said:
You can argue about the safety of 100LL till you are blue in the face. It is totally irrelevant. If it can't be made because no one is synthesizing the TEL for it anymore, then it may as well be as safe as the long lost Frappuccino flavor you loved. You still can't get it.
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Well hopefully we will figure something out to keep proven and safe 100ll around

Based on your name I’m guessing you don’t work in this industry

Which makes sense with how you can be so flippant about destroying so many aviation business, tons of families and lives for the sake of, well not saving a single life, just for the principle of being green I guess

Destroying families, business -> lives for the sake of flawed and debunked stories, not really evidence based doc…so even though the science says it won’t save a single life, brother…that’s a sickness in and of itself
 
Roller said:
And it will destroy many small business, training, time building opportunities, and be a major destruction to aviation in America

The sad part it will save ZERO lives

It will be destruction of industry and livelihoods for NOTHING
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Or we could stop whining/grumbling and be proactive. There are lots of ways to tackle this issue. A 1950s-era horizontally opposed relic of engine technology is not some mythical creature that can only survive on the blood of TEL. Similarly, a spam can with wings will happily fly mated to anything that produces thrust.
 
Roller said:
Well hopefully we will figure something out to keep proven and safe 100ll around

Based on your name I’m guessing you don’t work in this industry

Which makes sense with how you can be so flippant about destroying so many aviation business, tons of families and lives for the sake of, well not saving a single life, just for the principle of being green I guess

Destroying families, business -> lives for the sake of flawed and debunked stories, not really evidence based doc…so even though the science says it won’t save a single life, brother…that’s a sickness in and of itself
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Not really into the whole personal attack thing you got going on here. If I need melodrama, I'll go talk to my pre-teen.

Anyway, it seems you have missed my point all along. This has nothing to do with "being green," or what my (well-informed) opinion of TEL's toxicity is, or any study or pseudo-study that is out there. That is why I haven't bothered citing anything. It does not matter. You are reciting indignations that do nothing to solve the issue at hand.

The point is that 100LL may well be forced out of production due to voluntary discontinuation of one of its key ingredients by a private sector entity.
 
Guys… How have you not learned that all troller wants to do is argue. In addition to claiming to work in whatever industry the topic is about, the arguments are laughable at best. That should have been obvious when it claimed TEL production is a national security issue.

DON’T FEED THE TROLLer! If you just ignore it, it will go away.
 
This and Lyco crank availability are the two things that have been changing my mind on building an E/AB that’s powered by a Rotax.

100LL will go away and the FAA won’t care.
 
Whether for real or imaginary reasons, TEL is going away and there's nothing we can do about it. Nothing. I for one won't miss picking lead balls out of my spark plugs and grinding valves to remove lead deposits.

If you want to be indignant, be indignant at the corrupt politicians who've mandated that all mogas in many states is contaminated with ethanol, making me unable to use the only available fuel that doesn't contain lead.
 
Roller said:
Seems a national security issue, this would majorly reduce the USs (and the worlds) abilities to produce pilots and transport goods and people.

Not having a 100LL factory or two in the US was always crazy
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I agree that this is a national security issue. But the issue isn't whether we have TEL factories in the US. The issue is that we are dependent on TEL in the first place. And this issue has been known for decades and yet we drag our feet still. We now have an unleaded fuel that loves engines but may perhaps have an issue with paint. Addressing that issue would be much more beneficial than creating new sources for TEL.
 
Roller said:
Economics of shipping it here, doesn’t make sense to not have a local supply

Health/enviro, real (non debunked) studies have shown no issue

Regs, don’t see anything in the CFRs
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You are wrong. These are reasons that TEL was offshored, why my company sold Octel, and why we closed 18 chemical plants over the last 25 years. You are debating just for the sake of taking the opposing view. It’s fun. But you lose this one :)
 
traumamed said:
In the long run, we can't win this. We don't have the political clout. The day is eventually going to come when we are going to be forced into an alternative. Sitting around and saying, "well, it's worked for the past 100 years" and "don't tread on me" isn't going to work.
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Can't never could. I don't believe in accepting defeat before trying.
 
RyanShort1 said:
Can't never could. I don't believe in accepting defeat before trying.
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Serious question. If the fact is that one company in the world makes a *required* key ingredient for 100LL, how do the owners of the world’s 230,000 100LL burning machines force that publicly traded company or anither entity to produce that *required* ingredient?

What cost would you pay for a gallon of 100LL to make that happen?
 
RyanShort1 said:
Can't never could. I don't believe in accepting defeat before trying.
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But "we" - GA leaded fuel users in general - have been trying, and have succeeded in keeping an exception from the leaded fuel ban for several decades.

I suspect that nothing that we do will result in a new supplier of TEL coming on line. We can pretend that fighting tooth and nail won't be a fight to the death, or we can accept the inevitability of TEL becoming unavailable and be prepared for it. Me? I'm flying Rotax powered right now, and we avoid 100LL as much as possible. I'm building an E/AB, and while I haven't selected an engine for it yet I can tell you that whatever it is, I'll make sure it can run unleaded auto gas with ethanol. That doesn't do the owners of a lot of Lycoming powered planes much good, but time marches on.
 
TCABM said:
Serious question. If the fact is that one company in the world makes a *required* key ingredient for 100LL, how do the owners of the world’s 230,000 100LL burning machines force that publicly traded company or anither entity to produce that *required* ingredient?
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We all chip in $10,000, conduct a hostile take-over of the company by obtaining compromising photographs of the Chief Executives, and then keep the production line running. We'll hire an ad company to market the slogan "Lead: It does a body good!" and deny, lie, and counter-accuse anyone who calls us on it. We'll be 230,000 modern-day industrial tycoons, soaring over the heads of the proletariat in our glorious lead-powered flying machines!

I'll get my monocle.
 
AvNavCom said:
We all chip in $10,000, conduct a hostile take-over of the company by obtaining compromising photographs of the Chief Executives, and then keep the production line running. We'll hire an ad company to market the slogan "Lead: It does a body good!" and deny, lie, and counter-accuse anyone who calls us on it. We'll be 230,000 modern-day industrial tycoons, soaring over the heads of the proletariat in our glorious lead-powered flying machines!

I'll get my monocle.
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Bro....I got this...(thanks chatgpt.... what a time to be alive....):

[Vintage Radio Voiceover Style – Imagine a jazz jingle softly playing in the background, like a Glenn Miller tune]

"Pilots, start your engines… with confidence!"

Narrator:
Step aside, uncertainty—there’s a fuel that’s lighting up the skies and hearts of aviators everywhere… it’s 100LL Avgas!

Yes sir, 100 Low Lead—the high-octane marvel that’s sweeping the nation’s runways. Packed with the magic touch of tetraethyl lead, it keeps your engine cooler, cleaner, and cruising with a smoothness you can feel in your fingertips!

Tetraethyl lead—the silent guardian of your cylinders—fights knock with the strength of ten thousand horses. Why, it’s like a co-pilot in every drop!

Lady’s Voice:
"Darling, you fly so smooth now!"

Narrator (chuckling):
That’s the lead talking, sweetheart!

So next time you top off, don’t settle for the weak stuff. Ask your FBO for the fuel that flies like a dream and sounds like a symphony—100LL: The Gentleman’s Choice in Aviation Gasoline!

[Closing Slogan – Sung in barbershop quartet harmony]
“With Tetraethyl Lead, You’re Always Ahead—Fill Up with 100LL Today!”

43afdb1d-7725-40b1-8e19-44726ce75503.png

That extra wing on the airplane tho :rofl:
 
Jim K said:
Bro....I got this...(thanks chatgpt.... what a time to be alive....):

[Vintage Radio Voiceover Style – Imagine a jazz jingle softly playing in the background, like a Glenn Miller tune]

"Pilots, start your engines… with confidence!"

Narrator:
Step aside, uncertainty—there’s a fuel that’s lighting up the skies and hearts of aviators everywhere… it’s 100LL Avgas!

Yes sir, 100 Low Lead—the high-octane marvel that’s sweeping the nation’s runways. Packed with the magic touch of tetraethyl lead, it keeps your engine cooler, cleaner, and cruising with a smoothness you can feel in your fingertips!

Tetraethyl lead—the silent guardian of your cylinders—fights knock with the strength of ten thousand horses. Why, it’s like a co-pilot in every drop!

Lady’s Voice:
"Darling, you fly so smooth now!"

Narrator (chuckling):
That’s the lead talking, sweetheart!

So next time you top off, don’t settle for the weak stuff. Ask your FBO for the fuel that flies like a dream and sounds like a symphony—100LL: The Gentleman’s Choice in Aviation Gasoline!

[Closing Slogan – Sung in barbershop quartet harmony]
“With Tetraethyl Lead, You’re Always Ahead—Fill Up with 100LL Today!”

View attachment 140028

That extra wing on the airplane tho :rofl:
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Looks like a shark fin tail draggin Cherokee.
 
TCABM said:
Serious question. If the fact is that one company in the world makes a *required* key ingredient for 100LL, how do the owners of the world’s 230,000 100LL burning machines force that publicly traded company or anither entity to produce that *required* ingredient?

What cost would you pay for a gallon of 100LL to make that happen?
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I disagree with the framing. It is essentially a function of excessive government oversight that prevents some other laboratory from filling the vacuum.

Maybe somewhere in a remote part of Africa someone will start up a new TEL lab?
 
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