TBM Crash May Implicate ATC

MAKG1 said:
You only think it's a "diatribe" because you're having trouble understanding it.

Read it for what it is. An emergency occurred. No one recognized it. Someone died as a result. You called that conjecture. You were wrong.
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Whatever "Dude"...........:rolleyes2:
 
After reading some of the more "interesting" post of this thread I could only imagine the following scenario:

N1234: "Uh Center, Fastplane 34 requesting a descent from 310 to 15,000 immediately"

Center: "Fastplane 34, is there a problem?"

N1234: "Uh, no center, just working out, uh, yea, got a slight problem, we just need to get lower."

N5678: "Center! Flitterbug 5678, that pilot in 1234 is hypoxic, you need to declare an emergency right now!"

N0987: "Center, this is 987, sounds to me like 1234 is on fire!"

Center: "Please everyone standby!, N1234 are you in an emergency?"

N5678: " Center, don't be a fool!, I'm a paramedic and I can recognize this situation!.......He's hypoxic and is going to pass out! DECLARE AN EMERGENCY!"

Center: "Please everyone.." (garbled due to multiple radio calls)

N0987: "N1234, where is the fire? Do you have a fire extinguisher??"

N5678: "987, You obviously can't understand what is happening, have you ever been to a high altitude chamber?"

Center: "Please, everyone" (more garble from multiple transmissions)

N1FU: "Center, there's obviously an emergency yet you are ignoring it. Are you trying to murder the pilot in 1234?"

Center: "Uh........."

N1234: "Center, Fastplane 34, never mind, we have the situation fixed"
 
I don't think it was the controller's fault.

But some lawyer will probably take it all the way up the chain all the way even to TBM.

I don't fly up there, but is checking your nail beds no good? Is it too late of a reaction? Check your fingernails often all you O2 pilots. If they're blue, get thee down.
 
MAKG1 said:
You only think it's a "diatribe" because you're having trouble understanding it.

Read it for what it is. An emergency occurred. No one recognized it. Someone died as a result. You called that conjecture. You were wrong.
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It is conjecture to say that someone died because it wasn't recognized. It may or may not have made a difference if someone other than the pilot recognized the situation before the loss of communication.
 
Reminds me of the folks looking to blame the controller in this thread:

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=72086

This controller even asked the PIC if he was declaring an emergency (he said no), and he still died. :(

I'm not seeing why so many people expect the controller to be PIC:dunno:


Hawka said:
I think Alex is saying that the controller could have been more helpful. The controller is not to blame and did everything right strictly speaking, but the pilot could be alive today if the controller had not just done the minimal and had detected that this pilot was in trouble (which we all can from listening to the tape).

Controllers can declare emergencies on behalf of pilots can they not? In this case if he had asked "Are you IMC Sir?" followed by "I'm declaring an emergency on your behalf fly heading xx and climb and maintain yy" may very well have saved a life.
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:rolleyes2:
 
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N12345 - Center I have a problem, I'd like 180.

Center - Standby, we'll get you lower when possible.

N12345 - (slurred) Roger... 180... , fuel... direct... cleared...

Rotor&Wing (to his copilot) - Man that guy sounds hypoxic and he doesn't even know it, center doesn't recognize it either, sucks for him, he should probably declare, whatever, it's his fault.

Center - N12345 cleared 180.

Center - N12345...

Center - N12345...
 
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I've been on the ramp and witnessed two emergencies. Both time the trucks rolled, both times they had good endings, both times the pilots signed some kind of release for the FD guys before they would leave. As far as I know, that was it for paperwork.
 
RotorAndWing said:
After reading some of the more "interesting" post of this thread I could only imagine the following scenario:

N1234: "Uh Center, Fastplane 34 requesting a descent from 310 to 15,000 immediately"

Center: "Fastplane 34, is there a problem?"

N1234: "Uh, no center, just working out, uh, yea, got a slight problem, we just need to get lower."

N5678: "Center! Flitterbug 5678, that pilot in 1234 is hypoxic, you need to declare an emergency right now!"

N0987: "Center, this is 987, sounds to me like 1234 is on fire!"

Center: "Please everyone standby!, N1234 are you in an emergency?"

N5678: " Center, don't be a fool!, I'm a paramedic and I can recognize this situation!.......He's hypoxic and is going to pass out! DECLARE AN EMERGENCY!"

Center: "Please everyone.." (garbled due to multiple radio calls)

N0987: "N1234, where is the fire? Do you have a fire extinguisher??"

N5678: "987, You obviously can't understand what is happening, have you ever been to a high altitude chamber?"

Center: "Please, everyone" (more garble from multiple transmissions)

N1FU: "Center, there's obviously an emergency yet you are ignoring it. Are you trying to murder the pilot in 1234?"

Center: "Uh........."

N1234: "Center, Fastplane 34, never mind, we have the situation fixed"
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Its already been proven in a real life situation that it wasn't anything remotely close to your ridiculous scenario, and it had a positive outcome.

I think we can all agree that if there were anything that could have been done to save the lives of the people in the plane, and thankfully there were no "innocent" victims on the ground in this case, then it should have been. Be it another pilot that recognized the problem, or a seasons controller that picked up on a potential issue and acted accordingly.
 
47PILOT said:
Its already been proven in a real life situation that it wasn't anything remotely close to your ridiculous scenario, and it had a positive outcome.

I think we can all agree that if there were anything that could have been done to save the lives of the people in the plane, and thankfully there were no "innocent" victims on the ground in this case, then it should have been. Be it another pilot that recognized the problem, or a seasons controller that picked up on a potential issue and acted accordingly.
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You call the scenario ridiculous, but I got the idea from the exchange I listened to in STL one night when a good Samaritan tried to intervene on frequency while a Caravan pilot was in severe icing. Instead of letting the controller work it out he kept interrupting and tried to take over for the controller.

You guys keep hammering it out, there are procedures that work extremely well when used correctly. Unfortunately there are those way over their heads in aviation and no matter the procedure, they will never get it.
 
People die every day in every way. Nobody gets to live forever. There is probably no more peaceful way to go than a hypoxic nod out. Why is everyone so obsessed with denying death? :dunno:
 
Jaybird180 said:
It would be really cool if the new Apple Watch had a pulse oximeter built in and interfaced with Foreflight.
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I thought the fingertip meters use light, that might not be possible using the wrist, but interesting idea.
 
teejayevans said:
I thought the fingertip meters use light, that might not be possible using the wrist, but interesting idea.
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Wrist mounted pulse oximeters still use a finger clip or rubber cap for the actual sensor. The earlobe is another place that has enough capillaries to allow for a good reading.
 
Henning said:
Why is everyone so obsessed with denying death? :dunno:
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"Everyone" isn't.

But assuming for a moment that being alive is a net desireable condition for most of us, a premature death is something to be avoided.

If there is obsession rearing it's ugly head, one might start by looking in a mirror.
 
Saw a blurb on this on one of the lamestream media stations. They played some of the audio. The talking head made comments critical of the controller. If this catches the interest of the daytime show producers on a slow news day it could really explode. Time will tell. The white hot blowtorch of outraged citizenry will come as quite a shock to the FAA who are more used to fanning the flames in the direction of those rich playboy pilots.
 
bullwinkle said:
This is made very difficult by the fact that the first sign of hypoxia is usually a euphoric sense of well-being. That is the time to start thinking "oh crap, I'm hypoxic"...but why would you think that, you feel great! :(
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Right, but from the sounds of it, he had some "indication" of a problem. "Indication" to me sounds like he had a bad reading on a gauge or maybe an annunciator light. But that is pure conjecture. If I had any of these types of indication, I'd be going down NOW, and sort it out later at one zero thousand.
 
Matthew said:
I've been on the ramp and witnessed two emergencies. Both time the trucks rolled, both times they had good endings, both times the pilots signed some kind of release for the FD guys before they would leave. As far as I know, that was it for paperwork.
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I've had equipment rolled for me twice. One time they asked for my name for his report the other time they just skulked off when they found there was nothing to do. Never heard anything again from either the FAA or the local airport on the matter.
 
FastEddieB said:
"Everyone" isn't.

But assuming for a moment that being alive is a net desireable condition for most of us, a premature death is something to be avoided.

If there is obsession rearing it's ugly head, one might start by looking in a mirror.
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:yesnod:

Just reading through some of his posts on death he sounds like he yearns for death. Weird.
 
Henning said:
People die every day in every way. Nobody gets to live forever. There is probably no more peaceful way to go than a hypoxic nod out. Why is everyone so obsessed with denying death? :dunno:
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Most people like being alive.
 
Palmpilot said:
Most people like being alive.
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Not if there is no Hope ...... or if you view the human race as a parasitic infection on mother earth. We are built to survive, it is in our psyche and we are physiologically made to live. Having concern to avoid actions that hasten the inevitable and mitigating risk in activities is a natural thing for most, even those with all but the most fatalistic outlook.
 
CTLSi said:
Sure he did:

"Nine Hundred Kilo November, we need to descend to about 180," the pilot informed the controller, sounding coherent and calm. "We have an indication that’s not correct in the plane."
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Should the controller have concluded there was a pressurization problem from that transmission?
 
roncachamp said:
Not even when I became a husband.
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Yeah, the same people who think the controller is responsible for this are the people who hear their wife say everything is fine, and don't end up sleeping on the couch.
 
JeffDG said:
Yeah, the same people who think the controller is responsible for this are the people who hear their wife say everything is fine, and don't end up sleeping on the couch.
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I like the couch, that's where my ps3 is.;)
 
CTLSi said:
So the pilot and his wife dead because he didn't say 'emergency?' Consider how frail that premise is...
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No, this is not the premise.

The premise is this - the pilot did not:

A. don his oxygen mask

and/or

B. initiate emergency descent while informing ATC (immediately or later) that he was doing it. In emergency situation he did not have to negotiate with anybody to act immediately to save the aircraft/passengers.

There was no superman around to fly to his aircraft and do all these things for him.
 
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roncachamp said:
Not even when I became a husband.
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:D

"Sure - go ahead and get a motorcycle." Does not mean sure, does not mean go ahead, and certainly doesn't mean you get a motorcycle. :no:
 
FastEddieB said:
"Everyone" isn't.

But assuming for a moment that being alive is a net desireable condition for most of us, a premature death is something to be avoided.

If there is obsession rearing it's ugly head, one might start by looking in a mirror.
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Yes, I am obsessed with doing the possible, clean energy, plentiful pure water, increased ability for food production and preservation, and replace current currency with hydrogen credits. Fixing the world through the use of hydrogen is possible, the timeline exists and we can get on it.

Denying death is not possible. Time is finite and there is no such thing as a premature death, your fate is written, and when you deny death on your occasion, your life starts going down hill, and that in many instances proves not to be a net desirable condition. My dad is a great example; he would have been better off dying from prostate cancer 15 years ago when he was a lucid person who could still enjoy life. Things are no longer good, and it's breaking down my mom as self appointed and will let no one else do it, primary care giver, and the last thing he would have wanted to do is burden my mother with this.

Besides which, you have no way of knowing that living is actually preferable to dying because you know absolutely nothing about death. So that requires a supposition based in fear to come to that conclusion. The reality could be completely opposite. That life here is like school and work, and that you get sent here to learn, and once you have learned what was required and done the work you were supposed to do, (provide and inspire thought) then you have come to your natural time to die, regardless how, and continue on to the next phase. After the point of what should be your natural death you are a person living out of phase with time. At that point you aren't doing yourself any favors by staying alive.

Living is not to be obsessed over, what you do with your life, THAT is what is to be obsessed over.
 
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Henning said:
Denying death is not possible. Time is finite and there is no such thing as a premature death, your fate is written, and when you deny death on your occasion, your life starts going down hill, and that in many instances proves not to be a net desirable condition.
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I've seen that movie, the one where the kid has a death premonition and tries to avoid it, but his friends die anyway.

Condolences for you your mom and dad.
 
roncachamp said:
Should the controller have concluded there was a pressurization problem from that transmission?
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No. What the controller should have concluded was there was a problem with the airplane.

Now, once the controller concluded THAT, he should have done something other than exhibit indifference to an undeclared emergency. ATC didn't know EXACTLY what the "problem" was, but they DID KNOW that there WAS a "problem."

IMO, if a pilot calls ATC and says "I have a problem with my airplane and I need to descend" that sort of says that MAYBE that airplane could fall out of the sky (which it did in this case eventually). That "MAYBE" should have been enough for the controller to move the OTHER aircraft out of the way and give priority to the problem aircraft.

Add to this is the idea that if I were in another airplane and someone heading at me said "Ummm, there's a problem with the airplane here.." I'd WANT the controller to divert me instead of telling the plane with the flying problem HE's the one who has to turn and wait a bit until they can find time to get back to him on his problem. Having a flaming ball of wreckage hurtling at me from 28,000 feet would ruin my day.

As for the idea that pilot not saying the "magic words" means there wasn't an emergency; exactly what do you think happened when the pilot stopped saying anything? That's right, they scrambled jets because there was an emergency. Which word apprently no one actually said. So, requiring the "magic words" to be spoken or there isn't an emergency ignores reality.

Now, having said all of that, the controller probably isn't legally liable. However, he is culpable for contributing to the death of 2 souls through indifference or neglect. The FAA is also maybe equally culpable for failing to properly train controllers to recognize potential emergencies and deal with them in a manner which treats the potential emergency as a priority rather than "We'll get back to you on that..."

PIC, busy, tired, AIM, FAR, should have, would have, yada yada yada are all just excuses. The plane had a problem and problems get fixed ON THE GROUND, not at 28, 25, 20 thousand feet up.

But hey, what do I know. I'm just a low time fomer student thinking about restarting my training...
 
N747JB said:
...flying along on A/P all fat dumb and happy, when you notice the cabin altitude light on. Hmmm, that's odd??

Since this is a new plane, it's probably a faulty light, yeah, let's figure it out. (looks for checklist)
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I agree with this.

One account I read indicated the pilot had over 5,000 hours in TBM aircraft. He was the president of the TBMOPA.

Checking the NTSB database there is just one fatal TBM accident that may have been caused by a pressurization problem. It occurred in France, and simply says the aircraft impacted high terrain in cruise flight. No definitive cause has been reached.

It therefore seems likely the pilot was well versed in any service difficulties the TBM fleet has experienced, and also likely he was aware of the accident database concerning the type. There isn't any mention I could find of pressurization problems in TBM aircraft.

Considering he was flying an aircraft that was delivered new from the factory just six months ago, it is eminently probable that the pilot felt an indication of pressurization system failure was due to a sensor failure and not an actual system fault.

His choice of words seems to reflect that belief...

"We have an indication that’s not correct in the plane."
 
3393RP said:
Considering he was flying an aircraft that was delivered new from the factory just six months ago, it is eminently probable that the pilot felt an indication of pressurization system failure was due to a sensor failure and not an actual system fault.

His choice of words seems to reflect that belief...

"We have an indication that’s not correct in the plane."
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Stupid question - do TBM pilots typically do any simulator training, or is it just done in the airplane? I ask because in every simulator environment I've been around, when dealing with potential pressurization problem - be it a door seal, cracked windshield, cabin altitude light, or whatever - the emphasis is to get the mask on first, and then troubleshoot the issue. They really beat that into our heads, and when you don the mask every six months in response to some light or issue in the sim, you get spring loaded to do it, even if you're fairly sure you're dealing with a something that's not a threat.

I'm not trying to sharpshoot the pilot by any means - if his training didn't emphasize getting the mask on first, then hey, that's a topic for another thread. But I'm curious how a typical TBM training curriculum handles this stuff.
 
Like I said, it can be drilled into your head till Kingdom come, but if your brain is not working effectively enough to access it, it does no good. That's the difference between the training and operating environments. Remember, he was in denial that he had a pressure problem, he thought he had a bad indication.
 
Yeah, I guess I'm making a lot of assumptions here, including how the cabin altitude and master warning system works in a TBM - but I'm curious where the cabin altitude was when he first noticed the problem. Typically you get a large number of cues long before the cabin climbs to the level of impairment. I might also be underestimating how quickly the cabin climbed - the TBM is a pretty tiny airplane, at least for something that flies as high as it does.
 
Or maybe the depressurization was a result of another problem (hatch popped open, etc), and he was reacting to the first indication not realizing he had a more serious problem, unfortunately we won't know for a while.
Back in June 2012, a PC-12 went down killing a family of 6...NTSB still hasn't issued a final report...we may not know what actually happened in this accident until 2017.
 
teejayevans said:
Or maybe the depressurization was a result of another problem (hatch popped open, etc), and he was reacting to the first indication not realizing he had a more serious problem, unfortunately we won't know for a while.
Back in June 2012, a PC-12 went down killing a family of 6...NTSB still hasn't issued a final report...we may not know what actually happened in this accident until 2017.
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If a hatch popped open it would have been explosive, trust me you would know it. If the cabin had slowly been climbing up it is insidious. A multitude of things could have happened, it could have been a stuck outflow valve, defective controller, etc. I don't know how a TBM pressurization system works as far as type and if it has a back up manual controller. I'm sure it would have had a cabin altitude alarm.

Some people are sensitive to pressure changes. In flying pressurized aircraft I notice the pressure change well before any aircraft system alert, then again others don't.
 
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