TBM Crash May Implicate ATC

Next week I will be in Florida getting an insurance check out in a Malibu. I haven't done much in pressurized planes so it should be interesting. Definitely will always keep these incidents in my thoughts.
 
narchee said:
Nah, ATC did everything they could. He asked for lower. They gave him lower. Unfortunately the dumbass didn't put his mask on so when they gave him lower again he was already drunker than a skunk on his own stink. No ATC fault. Dumbass pilot who didn't put his mask on? Yes! :yesnod:
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Dumba$$. Thanks for playin

For all of you who think the controller did nothing wrong…...
Your absolutely right, he didn't. its just unfortunate that after listening to the recording, its very clear to EVERYONE here the pilot was quickly loosing it. i realize its only minutes between transmissions here, but when hypoxia is setting in, it may as well be days.
Everything here is speculation at this point so we may never know why he didn't recognize the problem before it was to late. And if it were me in that situation i would hope to god someone, anyone, would try to get it clear to ATC that this may be hypoxia/emergency
 
47PILOT said:
Dumba$$. Thanks for playin

For all of you who think the controller did nothing wrong…...
Your absolutely right, he didn't. its just unfortunate that after listening to the recording, its very clear to EVERYONE here the pilot was quickly loosing it. i realize its only minutes between transmissions here, but when hypoxia is setting in, it may as well be days.
Everything here is speculation at this point so we may never know why he didn't recognize the problem before it was to late. And if it were me in that situation i would hope to god someone, anyone, would try to get it clear to ATC that this may be hypoxia/emergency
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Agreed...

And this event comes just a week after another Cirrus flys into the Atlantic Ocean under the same deal.. You would think the controllers would have been a bit more aware of the potential outcome...:mad2::mad2:
 
By the time the pilot started to exhibit signs (slurred speech) it was already too late. He didn't do that until he had leveled off at 250 and took the 30 degree turn. Somone could've screamed "hypoxia" over the air and it would've mattered. He was gone at that point. Leading up to that, his transmission was clear and coherent for the 180 request. Also, an "incorrect indication" could mean a hundred things.

Only thing the controller could have done better was ask "What's the nature of your problem and are you declaring an emergency?" Unfortunately, I don't think the TBM pilot knew how severe his situation was and would have replied in the "negative."
 
Some of you guys need to fly nordo for everyone else's safety.
 
In the Kalitta Learjet hypoxia event, the controller was admonishing the captain to stay off his transmit button until another plane on the frequency piped up and told ATC that the lear was declaring an emergency. So yeah, if the controller doesn't catch the gravity of a situation but you do, it may be worth to insert yourself in the conversation.
 
weilke said:
In the Kalitta Learjet hypoxia event, the controller was admonishing the captain to stay off his transmit button until another plane on the frequency piped up and told ATC that the lear was declaring an emergency. So yeah, if the controller doesn't catch the gravity of a situation but you do, it may be worth to insert yourself in the conversation.
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The difference here is the Kalitta pilot declared the emergency initially.

 
It's also possible the guy was having a stroke. Slurred speech isn't just a hypoxia symptom.
 
RotorAndWing said:
True.

I've flown enough red eye flights that by 5am after 8 hours of flying I start to sound pretty sloppy. :eek:
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I think his wife would have taken over. (If he had a stroke, that is)
 
RotorAndWing said:
True.

I've flown enough red eye flights that by 5am after 8 hours of flying I start to sound pretty sloppy. :eek:
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dans2992 said:
I think his wife would have taken over. (If he had a stroke, that is)
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A little off topic, but I always found it amusing that there are posters around work on "How to spot a drug abuser"......Red tired eyes, fatigued, slurring speech, etc..... Oh wait!, they just described most pilots coming off a red eye! :yikes:
 
I've done it a couple of times, declared an emergency and told ATC I was descending to 12K. Told, not requested. Follow that with an offer to change heading to help with any conflicts, no need to be a prick about it but no need to wait to descend either.

But you have to keep in mind that if the pilot was already hypoxic the seriousness won't sink in. Anyone who's done the altitude chamber will tell you that everything is okey dokey from your perspective at altitude. It sounds to me like this was just an accident plain and simple. It doesn't always have to be somebody's fault, sometimes things just happen.
 
Jeff Oslick said:
We don't know if she even knew how to use the radio, or she could have been asleep and not known there was a problem.
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dans2992 said:
Supposedly she was also a pilot.
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Unlikely she would have slept all the way until they crashed. If she was awake she would have certainly figured out how to put on his headset and push the button he always pushed. If she weren't able to figure that out, which is extremely unlikely, the fighter pilots that intercepted the aircraft to figure out what was going on would have seen her.
 
Pedals2Paddles said:
The point is another pilot recognize a third party's emergency and stepping in to do something about it, or at least try.
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Say what?

A third party has no business intervening. No authority, no context, no facts, and no training. Don't let the "EMT hero" thing cloud your common sense.
 
I fell that the one thing that will come out of this - at least in that Sector - is that controllers will ask more questions when they get a vague request for lower from a flight level aircraft that is not a big iron flown by a pro crew.
At least for a while.
 
Dr. O said:
controllers will ask more questions when they get a vague request for lower from a flight level aircraft that is not a big iron flown by a pro crew.
At least for a while.
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Some of you should seek out a controller to gain a better understanding. If you did, you would know that their training and procedures are very, very specific. They are not triage nurses, they are not 911 operators. There are very few things they can ask and infer.

Rotor&Wing gets it.
 
cirrusmx said:
whats the big freaking deal of declaring an emergency?????:mad2::mad2::mad2::mad2:
specially, when your life is in danger?


paper work, suspension, scrutinizing from the FAA. at least you are still alive to go through that.
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I agree. I don't understand the concern with declaring an emergency. It exists to bring focus on a deteriorating situation before it becomes worse.

Twenty years ago, while still a student pilot, I declared an emergency when I was caught by darkness on the final leg of my long cross country. The fuel attendant at Charlotte County left the field with the fuel truck and I was stuck there for three hours before he finally returned. Having left late I watched nervously as the sun began to set. Having had very little night experience I declared an emergency with Miami Center, who reassured me with every turn and expertly vectored me to a safe landing at Immokolee(?) airport. I had to call them on a pay phone (remember them?) to confirm a safe landing. My instructor flew up in another plane and retrieved me hours later. I never again heard anything about it. I didn't even have to fill out paperwork.
 
I had a nice chat about supplemental oxygen with a controller while bouncing around over west Texas one day. The controller was concerned for the health/safety of fellow pilots. I agreed with him whole heartedly that oxygen use is a valid concern but not a lot he could do about it. The conversation started when I mentioned that I had started oxygen when I reported level after climbing to 13,500. I don't normally report starting oxygen, I was just bored and the controller seemed to be a conversational type.

Anyway, my point is that the controller really can't do a whole lot for the health of a pilot. We really shouldn't expect a controller to be able to recognize hypoxia and assist but it is great when they do. As pilots we have to be responsible for our own health.
 
JHW said:
It doesn't always have to be somebody's fault, sometimes things just happen.
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Um excuse me?
This America. It's always somebody's fault.

Who can we sue?
 
Velocity173 said:
Somone could've screamed "hypoxia" over the air and it would've mattered. He was gone at that point.
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The two videos posted to either this or another thread were quite compelling.

In one, they're telling the fellow "Put on the mask or you will die" (or words to that effect) and he's just too confused/bewildered/gone to figure out what they're saying.

If some here think they're somehow better than that because they're not a "dumbass", they are quite wrong.

Perhaps fatally wrong.
 
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FastEddieB said:
If some here think they're somehow better than that because they're not a "dumbass", they are quite wrong.

Perhaps fatally wrong.
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I agree. At that first "indication", this pilot should have taken the express elevator down, THEN told ATC what he was doing.

And for those who think the controller should have recognized the slurred speech, Atlanta center can be a busy place and those controllers deal with all kinds of accents and nationalities. No fault with the controller.
 
RotorAndWing said:
ATC did nothing wrong here. Had the pilot said the magic words "Nine Hundred Kilo November we are declaring an emergency at this time and need a descent due to pressurization loss" he would have been cleared down immediately and the controller would have cleared airspace.
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Hell, even if he hadn't said "emergency", if he'd said "pressurization loss", the controller would have known what was going on.

We can't expect ATC to read our minds. If you have a problem, speak up!
 
Bill Jennings said:
I agree. At that first "indication", this pilot should have taken the express elevator down, THEN told ATC what he was doing.
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That's a big part of the reason that ATC has minimum distances between aircraft, so if you NEED to do that, they have some room to react before you exchange paint samples.
 
N747JB said:
Boy that was helpful, you a pilot? :dunno: Spend much time in the flight levels? Or the plane in your avatar your main ride?
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Yes, actually, lots of time in the flight levels. On United. :D And yes you can be damn sure that anyone with half a brain would put the oxygen mask if the cabin depressurized even if sitting in the back of a United flight. Even with no pilot training. I mean come on! What was he thinking? I stand by my dumbass comment. Pilot error is evident. Let's not beat about the bush. He ****ed up.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
Um excuse me?
This America. It's always somebody's fault.

Who can we sue?
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The family is going to try to sue TBM. Guaranteed. But they will not prevail the guy didn't put his oxygen mask on and fell asleep.
 
Bill Jennings said:
I agree. At that first "indication", this pilot should have taken the express elevator down, THEN told ATC what he was doing.

And for those who think the controller should have recognized the slurred speech, Atlanta center can be a busy place and those controllers deal with all kinds of accents and nationalities. No fault with the controller.
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In addition to that - I'm no doc, but by the time your speech is slurred enough for a controller to notice, you brain has probably gone mushy enough that there might not be anything the controller can do to help anyway.
 
narchee said:
The family is going to try to sue TBM. Guaranteed. But they will not prevail the guy didn't put his oxygen mask on and fell asleep.
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That's so cute...thinking that facts have anything to do with whether someone prevails in a lawsuit.
 
Matthew said:
In addition to that - I'm no doc, but by the time your speech is slurred enough for a controller to notice, you brain has probably gone mushy enough that there might not be anything the controller can do to help anyway.
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Supposedly there was a Piaggio where a controller did just that. Pilot started slurring speech, controller suspected problem and gave descent, pilot recovered and everyone survived.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Supposedly there was a Piaggio where a controller did just that. Pilot started slurring speech, controller suspected problem and gave descent, pilot recovered and everyone survived.
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I'm glad it worked.

Question about the FAA altitude chamber: Do they do this so each individual can experience it, or do they do this so each individual can actually learn something? I'm wondering - just because you experience something that affects your mental capabilities, doesn't necessarily mean you learn from it. Do they videotape the experience so you can look at it afterward, with a clear mind, and see how it affected you? If the experience is such that you get mush-brained but because of that you can't even remember what happened, have you really learned anything?

Or does it come on in such a way that you actually remember later what happened?
 
narchee said:
... I mean come on! What was he thinking? I stand by my dumbass comment. Pilot error is evident. Let's not beat about the bush. He ****ed up.
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Not picking particularly on narchee, but I find it sad that so many people with absolutely no knowledge of what went on in that cockpit are so quick to judge the pilot. It seems clear that it was a pressurization problem if the report of frosted windows is correct. Beyond that, we know nothing.

Even the self-righteous and judgmental among you know nothing. All I can think, and it's the same thing I think when I read most accident reports is: There but for the grace of God, go I. Try a little humility, people.
 
So the pilot and his wife dead because he didn't say 'emergency?' Consider how frail that premise is...
 
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narchee said:
The family is going to try to sue TBM. Guaranteed. But they will not prevail the guy didn't put his oxygen mask on and fell asleep.
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Isn't it possible that his oxygen mask was on but the oxygen system was malfunctioning? Or empty?
 
CTLSi said:
So the pilot and his wife died because he didn't say 'emergency?' Consider how frail that premise is...
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I see no evidence whatsoever that the pilot ever said why he wanted lower. For all the controller knew, he wanted lower for favourable winds, and when he has other conflicting traffic, a "standby" is an entirely appropriate response to such a request.

If the pilot had, instead, said "I need lower due to pressurization failure", now the controller has a reason to give priority handling, even absent the dreaded e-word.
 
CTLSi said:
So the pilot and his wife died because he didn't say 'emergency?' Consider how frail that premise is...
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No they died because he didn't put his mask on. Have you listened to the recording? He had no mask on you can hear that. Stop trying to blame ATC they were just doing their job and it is not on them to guess what is going on in the cabin of every plane under their control.
 
If we're to assume at this point that it in fact was hypoxia, and I think thats a safe assumption given the facts we have received, the focus should be figuring out how not to let this happen to any of us.

I'm sure that if you were to as any one of us or this pilot for that matter, we would say that at the first sign of an issue regarding hypoxia we would take immediate corrective action. The question is how immediately, and to what extent. If the feeling is very subtle and makes you think that you in fact have complete control, than your only going to counter act with a low degree of urgency. If that low level of degradation continues, than so will the lack of corrective action until your past the point of no return.
 
Regarding the controversy on whether the pilot of another aircraft should intervene, it seems to me that there are situations where one can offer assistance without being disruptive. One time, I was coming into the Phoenix area on a night when there was an unexpected overcast, and I heard ATC working with a pilot who was trapped on top. I had gotten there through a large clear area, which Hawthorne Flight Watch had told me about, so when there was a lull in the conversation, I said "Phoenix Approach, Cessna xxxxx with a pirep." The controller immediately told me to go ahead, and I told him there was a big hole in the clouds west of the Phoenix area. A while later, I heard the controller asking the pilot if he saw the lights of the freeway, and he did.

I think the controller was already vectoring the pilot in that direction, but hopefully my pirep was helpful to some degree.
 
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