Taxiway closed by notam due to snow/ice

FORANE said:
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We(4 of us) got stuck on I40 in NC for a week back around 1993. It was a 100 year ice and snow storm exactly what happened the last 2 days only much worse.
Luckily after back tracking 60 miles on near 12" of ice with a 30' enclosed race car trailer we found one of the last hotel rooms anywhere. Had to stay there for a week until NC could get I40 open.
 
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EdFred said:
Rain doesn't slow most us around here down. Just the old people. Maybe its the old people and not just Yankees. ;)
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Remember the videos of storm runoff pouring down into the NYC subways a few months back and flooding them out for days/weeks? Silly yankees, don't they prepare for rain?

Same thing around here for snow. You don't generally prepare for the 3rd or 4th sigma type event. You handle it as best you can when/if it happens.
 
kyleb said:
Remember the videos of storm runoff pouring down into the NYC subways a few months back and flooding them out for days/weeks? Silly yankees, don't they prepare for rain?

Same thing around here for snow. You don't generally prepare for the 3rd or 4th sigma type event. You handle it as best you can when/if it happens.
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It's New York City. 9,000,000+ idiots living in a place designed by idiots.
Citiots.

1/2" of snow is a 3-4 Sigma? LOL
 
kyleb said:
I can think of 6 snow events in my 57 years in the Atlanta area that were problematic. Once every 10 years, you deal with it. You don't infrastructure up for it.
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We don't get the plows/salt trucks out for 1/2" either. But we don't shut down because of it
 
EdFred said:
Rain doesn't slow most us around here down. Just the old people. Maybe its the old people and not just Yankees. ;)
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I have to drive I-4 from Winter Haven to Orlando several times a week. Most of the old people are afraid of I-4, so I'll blame it on the tourists. :biggrin:
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
NOTAM A: 6 inches of snow over patchy ice all surfaces.
vs
NOTAM B: closed.

"A" solves the "problem"
"B" Why? Just why?
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"B" Because sometime, somebody is going to land and prang their airplane. Then they are going to find some F. Lee Bailey wanna be and sue the airport for not closing the runway and protecting him from himself and they are going to find enough jurors who think the airport should give the pilot and the lawyer the jackpot they are going for.
 
kyleb said:
Who does? Or are you just being a twit?
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Maybe the news and my family that lived (now in Cherokee county) in Cobb County is lying to us up here, but everytime someone gets a 1/2" to an 1" of snow south of Nashville they tell us that the whole area has shut down and show what looks like the aftermath of a demolition derby.

I also remember a spring break snowstorm (no ice) where they shut everything down on 75. They were letting people with Ohio and Michigan plates drive through though while parking people with FL GA TN plates.
 
EdFred said:
Maybe the news and my family that lived (now in Cherokee county) in Cobb County is lying to us up here, but everytime someone gets a 1/2" to an 1" of snow south of Nashville they tell us that the whole area has shut down and show what looks like the aftermath of a demolition derby.

I also remember a spring break snowstorm (no ice) where they shut everything down on 75. They were letting people with Ohio and Michigan plates drive through though while parking people with FL GA TN plates.
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Neither of those is accurate in my experience. And I'll buy you a beer if you can find a legit reference to the second one.
 
kyleb said:
Neither of those is accurate in my experience. And I'll buy you a beer if you can find a legit reference to the second one.
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OK it was 2", which in my opinion is pretty much the same thing.

https://www.ajc.com/news/how-inches-snow-shut-down-metro-atlanta/ku4GiMOEaONnXAXTUbae4I/

The second one happened in the spring of 93. All I have is anecdotes from fellow college students letting us losers who couldn't afford to go to spring break know about their adventure to get home from Florida. They were in class, and the south was still shut down. So unless they teleported, I don't know how they drove back.
 
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Montana kept this airport open 16 years ago when I was there. The last winter I flew for that company almost everywhere we went was covered in snow except home base. Ice is a different animal. Reversers are very nice to have.

Flew a trip to Abilene, TX this am, and they only had one runway open. Almost all taxiways closed even though they did not look that bad. Taxiways were a lot better that the ramp. In Montana everything would have been open.

P1010652.JPG P1010650.JPG
 
EdFred said:
OK it was 2", which in my opinion is pretty much the same thing.

https://www.ajc.com/news/how-inches-snow-shut-down-metro-atlanta/ku4GiMOEaONnXAXTUbae4I/

The second one happened in the spring of 93. All I have is anecdotes from fellow college students letting us losers who couldn't afford to go to spring break know about their adventure to get home from Florida. They were in class, and the south was still shut down. So unless they teleported, I don't know how they drove back.
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In the video you linked one of the weather guys says "It wasn't the snow. The snow hit the ground and melted, then the artic air came in behind it and turned it into a sheet of ice."

The 1993 storm was a legitimate blizzard. 6" of snow in Atlanta, 18" of snow 30 miles north. I got over a foot where I lived, with 3' drifts because of the wind. That was an epic storm that began with thundersnow, which I didn't realize was a thing until that Friday night. Just amazing. And yes, the interstates were closed with people trapped in cars for a couple of days. Not a good situation in an area that isn't geared for a foot plus of snow.

But you were claiming 1/2". Why don't you re-focus on that. I have time. ;-)
 
kyleb said:
In the video you linked one of the weather guys says "It wasn't the snow. The snow hit the ground and melted, then the artic air came in behind it and turned it into a sheet of ice."

The 1993 storm was a legitimate blizzard. 6" of snow in Atlanta, 18" of snow 30 miles north. I got over a foot where I lived, with 3' drifts because of the wind. That was an epic storm that began with thundersnow, which I didn't realize was a thing until that Friday night. Just amazing. And yes, the interstates were closed with people trapped in cars for a couple of days. Not a good situation in an area that isn't geared for a foot plus of snow.

But you were claiming 1/2". Why don't you re-focus on that. I have time. ;-)
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2" is the same as 1" as is 1/2". Drives just the same. It doesn't even come up to the rims. It Hell, as long as it isn't coming up to the bumper or the frame I'm going out.
 
EdFred said:
2" is the same as 1" as is 1/2". Drives just the same. It doesn't even come up to the rims. It Hell, as long as it isn't coming up to the bumper or the frame I'm going out.
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If at first you don't succeed, give ground and retrench.

- Maurice Gamelin
 
kyleb said:
In the video you linked one of the weather guys says "It wasn't the snow. The snow hit the ground and melted, then the artic air came in behind it and turned it into a sheet of ice."

The 1993 storm was a legitimate blizzard. 6" of snow in Atlanta, 18" of snow 30 miles north. I got over a foot where I lived, with 3' drifts because of the wind. That was an epic storm that began with thundersnow, which I didn't realize was a thing until that Friday night. Just amazing. And yes, the interstates were closed with people trapped in cars for a couple of days. Not a good situation in an area that isn't geared for a foot plus of snow.

But you were claiming 1/2". Why don't you re-focus on that. I have time. ;-)
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https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1993_Storm_of_the_Century

I was working as the storm passed through. It was the only time in my career that FL190 was unusable in my sector due to low altimeter settings.
 
PastZTL said:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1993_Storm_of_the_Century

I was working as the storm passed through. It was the only time in my career that FL190 was unusable in my sector due to low altimeter settings.
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That was an amazing storm. The weather guessers predicted it a couple of days in advance, so people were sort of prepared. I waited up late on that Friday evening to watch the front end of the storm, but was very surprised at the quantity of snow and the big winds that were blowing when I got up in the morning. I was fortunate. I didn't lose any utilities, but many of my co-workers, who lived in a more rural area lost electricity, cable, phone, etc for a week or so. In general, no electricity means no heat, which is a bad thing. As mentioned in the linked story, yes, factory roofs collapsed due to snow weight. We had one partial collapse where several feet of snow drifted at a roof discontinuity on one of our warehouses, and we had a factory where a portion of the roof was sagging. One of our maintenance workers let himself into the factory on his own initiative and noticed the sagging area and shored it up using a lift truck and other stuff (no idea what).
 
The only way to safely drive in snow (the slick stuff near 32°), and in torrential rain…. Is very slowly. Anyone who thinks they “know how to drive” in that crap, well I’ll pass by you when you’re off the road.
 
Kritchlow said:
The only way to safely drive in snow (the slick stuff near 32°), and in torrential rain…. Is very slowly. Anyone who thinks they “know how to drive” in that crap, well I’ll pass by you when you’re off the road.
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it’s all about energy management ;) - to fast, your out-a-control, too slow, your stuck.
 
Kritchlow said:
The only way to safely drive in snow (the slick stuff near 32°), and in torrential rain…. Is very slowly. Anyone who thinks they “know how to drive” in that crap, well I’ll pass by you when you’re off the road.
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Agreed, I like the word 'gently', when driving in snow.
 
I would hazard a guess that every FAA funded airport is gonna have a binder that covers snow or just a bout every other weather event.

But most airports are just not run well and unless its fuel or hanger revenue no one knows where that binder is.
 
My third day of captivity due to notam-closed runway, I learned that the responsibility for de-ice/plow of the runway here lies with the county, and they will not pay the contractor his fee (apparently 5 grand) unless there is more than 3" of snow. The city runs the airport and does not have that sort of budget to sling around.

I think the argument is that the airport only received 2.5" of snow, so nobody is brassing up and the runway remains an ice rectangle fit only for curling. So we are waiting on the sunshine to do the plowing and melting for us. I'm told it may be another 2 days.

I don't have any additional aspersions to cast, I am just surprised at both how much it costs to plow a 4500x75 runway, and how a field can be a victim of county vs city politics and budgets.
 
I have plowed the runway myself, and taxiways too. But, now this year the city says no one is allowed to do any plowing except them. And they do a crappy job and it sits unplowed for most of the day. Another pilot on the field offered to the city to keep the runway plowed for $100 for the season, as a way to keep the city out of it.
I land on snow sometimes, but not with crosswinds and not more than a few inches of powder. Crusty snow can be a real problem.
 
schmookeeg said:
I don't have any additional aspersions to cast, I am just surprised at both how much it costs to plow a 4500x75 runway, and how a field can be a victim of county vs city politics and budgets.
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Wow. $5000 seems excessive.

Last winter I was nearly stuck in KY where my plane was getting some avionics work. Thankfully they convinced the airport ops guys to get the old plow truck started. He cleared me a path just wide enough to taxi on, and a 40' strip of the runway. "The runway is still closed... takeoff at your own risk." They normally waited on it to melt, which would've been fine except we had a trip planned for the next day. The drive down there was the worst part.
 
Around here when they get snow on the road to the Mount Hamilton Observatory (about once a year) they just close the road to nonresidents. I don't know if they even have snow plows in this part of the state.
 
schmookeeg said:
My third day of captivity due to notam-closed runway, I learned that the responsibility for de-ice/plow of the runway here lies with the county, and they will not pay the contractor his fee (apparently 5 grand) unless there is more than 3" of snow. The city runs the airport and does not have that sort of budget to sling around.

I think the argument is that the airport only received 2.5" of snow, so nobody is brassing up and the runway remains an ice rectangle fit only for curling. So we are waiting on the sunshine to do the plowing and melting for us. I'm told it may be another 2 days.

I don't have any additional aspersions to cast, I am just surprised at both how much it costs to plow a 4500x75 runway, and how a field can be a victim of county vs city politics and budgets.
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Wow...Same here at I67. 2" of ice and a 1" of snow. Plows won't do much until it warms up. Today I think it made it to 39°f with plenty of sun. But it don't seemed like much melted?

At this rate it could takes days more.
That is my plow, I don't use it at all the airport unless they asked me too. Not sure where they would want the snow piles. Don't want to upset any of my hangar neighbors either.
Someone else pushed that little bit of ice out of front of the FBO hangar next door.
They has been hardly no one here except for the manager/AP/IA mechanic for 4 days now. I spent about 8 hrs at my hangar today expecting to hear snow plows to show up. None did, that ice is hard to get up and hard on plows also.
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Runway has been plowed but it completely ice covered.
Awos says the runway is closed but the airport open. Can you land and take off from it legally? After the second day of being closed is when I think a notam was issued at our airport?
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On the flip side. Just because there is not a NOTAM about field conditions do not believe everything is clear and good. Especially smaller airports. When I did my trip to Abilene my boss actually wanted to be picked up in Albany, TX, T23, northeast of Abilene. Both of us did not think that was going to happen. He got a friend, private pilot, to drive to T23 and check out the conditions. His friend said he would not recommend it. I called the Breckenridge, TX airport, BKD, which is further northeast of Abilene. They guy that answered the phone said the airport was closed and they hoped to have it open Saturday afternoon. Neither airport had NOTAMS about field conditions or that they were closed.
 
Jim K said:
Wow. $5000 seems excessive.

Last winter I was nearly stuck in KY where my plane was getting some avionics work. Thankfully they convinced the airport ops guys to get the old plow truck started. He cleared me a path just wide enough to taxi on, and a 40' strip of the runway. "The runway is still closed... takeoff at your own risk." They normally waited on it to melt, which would've been fine except we had a trip planned for the next day. The drive down there was the worst part.
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You only needed 40' of runway to take off?! Man, these STOL mods are really making strides these days!
 
Some of the small uncontrolled airports will be covered in ice/snow and never put a NOTAM out while the bigger field nearby will close all their runways. Happens by me fairly often.
 
EdFred said:
2" is the same as 1" as is 1/2". Drives just the same. It doesn't even come up to the rims. It Hell, as long as it isn't coming up to the bumper or the frame I'm going out.
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Myself, I prefer about 6"-12", as it keeps most people home...then my 4x4 and I have the roads (mostly) to myself. I drove nearly 200 miles the other day during that moderate midwest storm (6-9" snow). I mentioned that the trip took me the exact same amount of time as when the roads are clear and dry, and I got the standard "A foUr WheEl DrIvE trUcK stiLl stOpS liKe a TwO wHeEl dRive!" from a coworker. I just smiled because I knew I hadn't even put the truck in 4 wheel drive not once for the trip.

As a proper Michigander, I was taught the correct way to use 4-wheel drive, which is ONLY to get you UNSTUCK! (maybe a slight exaggeration but I'm sure you get the point).
 
Country Flier said:
As a proper Michigander, I was taught the correct way to use 4-wheel drive, which is ONLY to get you UNSTUCK! (maybe a slight exaggeration but I'm sure you get the point).
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Correct way???

Having 4 wheel drive and not using it doesnt make much sense. 4 wheel drive WILL help you stop shorter, it WILL help you corner better, it obviously helps you accelerate better. Sure, I can drive most of the way home in 2 wheel drive, but why screw around, just put it in 4 and go.
 
Wagondriver said:
Correct way???

Having 4 wheel drive and not using it doesnt make much sense. 4 wheel drive WILL help you stop shorter, it WILL help you corner better, it obviously helps you accelerate better. Sure, I can drive most of the way home in 2 wheel drive, but why screw around, just put it in 4 and go.
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Stop shorter???
 
Wagondriver said:
Correct way???

Having 4 wheel drive and not using it doesnt make much sense. 4 wheel drive WILL help you stop shorter, it WILL help you corner better, it obviously helps you accelerate better. Sure, I can drive most of the way home in 2 wheel drive, but why screw around, just put it in 4 and go.
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For sure I use 4 wheel drive in my pickup truck when on slippy roads. It is completely a different truck when in 4 wheel drive. Only time I turn it off if I am turning on bare asphalt. Way safer in 4 wheel, like said why screw around?

Yes it will stop shorter in 4 wheel drive especially when the overdrive is turned off.
 
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