Talk Me Out of Buying...

Discussion in 'Hangar Talk' started by FormerHangie, Jan 21, 2021.

  1. asicer

    asicer Final Approach

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    I thought I had gotten www.BringaTrailer.com out of my system but here you are pulling me back in...
     
  2. wayne

    wayne Pattern Altitude

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    Only if you can't afford it or are not saving well enough for retirement.

    Otherwise, have a blast!
     
  3. wayne

    wayne Pattern Altitude

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    Not as much as most people think.

    Of the 106,681 survey participants who drove to work every day in a car, 95 percent of them travelled less than 40 miles to work, with the average commute distance being 13.6 miles. ​

    With 200+ mile ranges one does not have to recharge every day. On a daily commute like the above a 110 v outlet will charge it back up over night easily. With a 220 v it's even less time.

    My wife and I have talked about it some. Still both driving ICE cars. I have a Mustang Convertible. I think my next car will quite likely be an EV. Right now the leading candidate would be the Kia Niro EV, and word is it's getting a battery update for the 2022 model that should be for sale in August; current range is 239 miles, which is already plenty for me.

    My wife said we could always have an ICE for longer trips, but we rarely do that. I told her we could always rent something if we needed to. Anything long and we fly, private or commercial. About a year and half ago we did a trip to visit our youngest when she was in college for a parents weekend. My parents wanted to go too, then our oldest, then the middle daughter too. So, we rented a minivan. That was the only way to get 6 of us there in one vehicle, and it would also hold seven for driving to dinner once there.

    Unfortunately my next two trips look like they will be drives. :( We were going to fly, but the pitch trim servo has failed and needs repairing. STEC has a backlog, so we'll be driving. :oops: Both are just barely past max range for the Niro EV. If it were much further we'd look into flying commercial. As it is, with the overhead for commercial flights it wouldn't really be any faster than driving for such a short distance.
     
  4. weilke

    weilke Touchdown! Greaser!

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    As for the suggestion of a Tesla instead: When it comes to 'places you can stay for a night', both the Hampton Inn and the county jail are technically correct answers, yet they cater to very different customers.
     
  5. FormerHangie

    FormerHangie En-Route

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    If we're going to Europe, I think we'd stay eight or nine nights. In addition to picking up the car, I'd like to see the Porsche museum and if possible get a ride around or drive the Nurburgring. After that, I'd leave the rest up to my 'wife. There are a number of dropoff points where you return the car for shipping, that would give us plenty of choices. We could head down towards Austria and/or Switzerland, or go to France, whatever she'd like to see

    That's a nice old Beetle. My sister had a '71 Super Beetle in that same color. Just to make sure it was extra slow, it had a semiautomatic transmission. I do remember riding around with her, sunroof open and the music turned up.

    The deal with Porsche is that you go to a dealer and order a car, you are buying it from that dealer, the only difference is that you pick it up in Stuttgart, and then have to wait for it to come to you after you return.


    I believe that Porsche recommends a 2000 mile break in, so no top speed runs.

    The thing that makes getting the Cayman practical is that my commute will only be one day per week, total yearly miles is probably going to be around 7500 miles per year. I want the PDK because it snaps off shifts as quickly as a car equipped with a racing style non-synchro dog clutch transmission.

    I've always wondered about two seaters powered by a VW engine, I wouldn't think you'd get enough thrust for adequate performance to carry two people out of a VW conversion. Maybe the Revmaster is up to the task, with its custom cylinder heads

    One of the reasons I'm looking at new ones is that Porsche sports cars hold their value annoyingly well. If you're looking, you might find a decent older Boxster S for a reasonable deal. It'd give you something to drive while you're finishing your Cobra.
     
  6. FormerHangie

    FormerHangie En-Route

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    The thing that precipitated this was a review of our finances, which made me realize that this is not only possible, it won't strain the budget.
     
  7. kyleb

    kyleb Final Approach

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    A VW is OK for a low and slow type - a low wing loading Cub like airplane, if you will. Where people get into trouble is trying to fly faster (i.e. less wing area) two seaters with the VW conversions. None of my old KR-2 friends were comfortable with a passenger bigger than an elementary school kid. A friend who had a VW powered Sonex was trying to sell it to buy one with the Jabiru 6 cylinder. He thought the VW power was underwhelming. I was at the airport one day when he was giving a prospective buyer a ride in the VW/Sonex. They lifted off, climbed to about 20', then descended all the way back to the runway, rolled a bit further and lifted off again for a familiarization ride. The airplane unsold itself on that ride.
     
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  8. Ted

    Ted The pilot formerly known as Twin Engine Ted

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    I noticed that while looking at the Porsche website when you started this thread (curious what "base model" pricing was). It seems not dissimilar to why I bought my Ram new - the values are held well and people actually drive Porsches, so by the time the values go down they're in 100k+ mile range. I actually test drove a Boxster with 180k on the clock about 6-7 years ago, it drove remarkably well and was the seller's daily driver.

    Your point is valid on a sporty car to drive while finishing the Cobra, but keep in mind we have the XKR. Yes a different kind of car than a Porsche (and an automatic - blegh) but it is still a fun car to drive for a sporty-type fix when I feel like it. I also need to get the RX-7 going and start racing it.

    So I'll stick to my previous statement. Right one falls in my lap, I'm in. But I'm not going to go out looking for one.
     
  9. weilke

    weilke Touchdown! Greaser!

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    - Porsche Museum
    - Porsche factory tour
    - Mercedes Museum
    - Take the elevator up on the TV tower, enjoy the view with a cup of overpriced coffee
    - Get up at 6am on sunday, take A81 up to Zurich (no trucks on the autobahn on sundays and A81 is empty that time of the day)
    - Enjoy Zurich
    - Go to Schaffhausen, the great falls of the river Rhine.
    - Drive to Friedrichshafen, Zeppelin museum.
    - Pick up A96 near Lindau, drive to Munich, ideally at 6am on a sunday
    - Look at a bunch of castles built by the psychotic king,
    - misc museums in Munich
    - Expensive shopping in Munich
    - visit the 'Luftwerft Schleissheim' aviation division of the 'Deutsches Museum' (museum of science and industry)
    - visit the transportation campus of the Deutsches Museum (say 'hi' to my ex and check on my apartment while you are there)
    - drive to Salzburg, get some good food
    - take your Porsche up the 'Grossglockner Hochalpenstrasse' (highway across a pass now cut out by a 10 mile tunnel) into Carinthia.
    - head down to Venice
    - knock yourself out withe everything Italy, that's another two weeks right there.
    - reluctantly turn in the car at the shipping location
    - fly home, wait for christmas
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2021
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  10. NealRomeoGolf

    NealRomeoGolf En-Route

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    Fixed that for you. :)
     
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  11. denverpilot

    denverpilot Tied Down PoA Supporter

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    Didn't jump ship to Demuro's Cars and Bids? Lol.

    (It's as pitiful as expected.)

    Sent from my LM-G850 using Tapatalk
     
  12. FormerHangie

    FormerHangie En-Route

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    So the subject of a possible trip to Europe came up at dinner tonight, so I brought up the trip/ car purchase idea. My wife's on board with it, so that's not an obstacle. Next step is to actually drive a Cayman. The Porsche Driving Experience is just down the road near KATL, so I think I'm going to sign up for a drive this May.
     
  13. Bill

    Bill Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    How much does the driving day cost? I’ve never driven a Porsche, it might be interesting to do so.
     
  14. Ted

    Ted The pilot formerly known as Twin Engine Ted

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    Looking at the MSRP on the Porsche website, the day could end up costing you over $100k ;)
     
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  15. FormerHangie

    FormerHangie En-Route

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    The driving experience page is here. A standard Cayman or Boxster is $365, the GTS models of those cars is $450, 911s start at $500, the Turbo S is $875. They have a listing for the 911 GT3 but not a price for it, I would assume it would be similar to the Turbo S. The nature of that facility is that you're not got to get going a ton in terms or top speed, but you'll get lots of cornering experience.

     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2021
  16. Bill

    Bill Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Braking into, clipping apexes, and accelerating out of corners is EXACTLY what I’m looking for. Do they have manual transmission cars to drive?
     
  17. FormerHangie

    FormerHangie En-Route

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    I'm pretty sure they're all PDK equipped. If you look at the individual car listings, it will say.
     
  18. FormerHangie

    FormerHangie En-Route

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    The Cayman GT4 and 718 Spyder are manual transmission cars.
     
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  19. Daleandee

    Daleandee Cleared for Takeoff

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    This is horrible ... you got me thinking about spending my retirement saving in a whole new light ... :rockon:
     
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  20. FormerHangie

    FormerHangie En-Route

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    so, is Atlanta convenient for you, or will you be going to the Los Angeles location?
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2021
  21. pmanton

    pmanton Pattern Altitude PoA Supporter

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    I'm an old fart (83) I used to be a Guards Red 930 guy.
    Do it Do it Do it.
     
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  22. wayne

    wayne Pattern Altitude

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    I’ve been down there, but didn’t drive. It was a fund raising event and they had drivers taking us through the course. It was a blast. I’m sure it’s more fun to drive, but going through it with someone that knows how do to it was a good time.
     
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  23. SoCal RV Flyer

    SoCal RV Flyer En-Route

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    suze.jpg

    Kidding!! Buy & enjoy. Life is short and fragile.

    The name of the thread should be "Talk me into buying..."
     
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  24. Ted

    Ted The pilot formerly known as Twin Engine Ted

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    If it wasn’t for fast cars, motorcycles, and airplanes, I could’ve paid off my house by now.

    Man that would’ve been a boring past 20 years.
     
  25. Daleandee

    Daleandee Cleared for Takeoff

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    Atlanta ain't that far ... especially on the way home from such a weekend! :D
     
  26. FormerHangie

    FormerHangie En-Route

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    I read an article a few years ago that good ol' Suze kept all her investments in bonds. Yeah, I'm not taking financial advice from someone who does that.

    As always, balance is the key. Some money for saving, some money for necessities, and some money for fun. There's no point saving everything for old age, there's things that are better done when you're younger.
     
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  27. TCABM

    TCABM Pattern Altitude

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    Did that at Silverstone (UK) in a rhd Lotus. It was a blast to ride along with someone more skilled than I who could really max perform the car and also not have to worry about shifting left-handed.
     
  28. denverpilot

    denverpilot Tied Down PoA Supporter

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    Actually she decided to involve herself in a credit card scam selling pre-paid cards to “help credit scores” quite some time ago — and lost all credibility with most fiscally minded people doing it.

    Her advice about budgeting was sound and such — but she got greedy.

    There’s quite a few pieces of her backstory of “waitress who people loaned money to, so she put it all on money market investments” — Know anybody who’d loan someone money to invest in money market accounts? Me either. — that don’t make any sense and of course nobody can be found who can corroborate any of it.

    Not as big a scam artist as Robert Kiyosaki (Rich Dad Poor Dad) and even less believable or confirmable back story that’s likely a massive lie, but seems to join the pattern of fiscal pundits who stretch the truth to remain “experts and gurus” to keep the income flowing.

    The principles haven’t changed ever, but each pundit has their story that can’t quite be confirmed ...

    Besides the story though her real problem was the never ending scams and thoughts on how to help broke people bow at the alter of the almighty FICO Score. (Which isn’t even just one score and none of her schemes work on other than just paying your bills on time and not being over extended on credit.)

    Anyway. Back to your regularly scheduled programming. Suze sells some snake oil mixed in with budget basics.

    I know I know. Nobody cares. Now let’s all go drive some fun cars. LOL
     
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  29. MarkH

    MarkH Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I'm late to the party, but in my opinion the Cayman has been the best car Porsche makes for about a decade. My only suggestion would be to look at a the price of off lease Caymans before you pull the trigger. Historically the Base Porsches depreciate a little harder than the higher end of the same model, but right now the used car market may be screwy enough to justify buying new.

    Normally, I would never advise a friend to buy a new "lease special" car (like a base Cayman, BMW 3/4 series, etc), but right now 3 year old base Caymans are trading for almost the price of new ($55-$65K), MSRP new is $60K (I'm sure @FormerHangie knows this, but for the less researched perusing this thread).

    Just curious, did you buy or are you still mulling it over?
     
  30. Ghery

    Ghery Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I rented a car for a week in the UK 20 years ago that had a standard transmission. I can tell you that trying to speed shift the arm rest DOES NOT work. :p Fortunately, the pedals are in the same order as in the colonies. Otherwise it would be impossible, even with an automatic transmission.
     
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  31. FormerHangie

    FormerHangie En-Route

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    Actually, this is totally relevant. One of the the reasons I can do this is that our investments have done so well. If I'd done what Suze was reputed to do with her money, no way I could.

    I wasn't planning on doing this until next year, after daughter #1 graduates from Penn State, so no car yet. There are two reasons for me to buy new, because I don't need more than 300 hp and very few base Caymans come with the options I'd like to see on a car that occasionally will do track days, and so I can to to Germany and do tourist delivery. The reason I brought it up when I did was that someone else started a "talk me out of " thread on an airplane, and I thought I'd do the same for the car. There are a few 718 Caymans in inventory, and the asking price is about 20% off MSRP for a three year old one. A year and a half from now, which is when I'll be doing this, and the late model Cayman inventory is likely to be even skinnier than it is now. There are a total of two new Caymans in inventory in my area. Since this is a car I intend to drive until I'm too old or too dead, I'm not that concerned about resale value.
     
  32. denverpilot

    denverpilot Tied Down PoA Supporter

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    A decent point. Ha. I was more focused on her story and credibility because I guess I find it obvious that overbuying on insurance and low return investments is something someone in wealth guarding does, not wealth growth. She’s always been a guarder.

    The other reason none of them give good advice is because they’re not allowed to. They’re not licensed to give investment advice. They can have their butts handed to them by the SEC.

    So they talk in generalities and hand wave a lot when they’re famous.
     
  33. 455 Bravo Uniform

    455 Bravo Uniform En-Route

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    Porsche’s turbo 4-cylinders - can the turbo and other systems be “tweaked” easily? The challenge of doing so might be equally fun as driving it afterwards. Or are they pretty much locked up with low enthusiast or aftermarket following in favor of the NA 6-cyl?
     
  34. charheep

    charheep Line Up and Wait PoA Supporter

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    I care. Its a interesting story, and honestly never thought to research her background. She rubs me the wrong way, as she comes across as her word is final and gospel.
     
  35. FormerHangie

    FormerHangie En-Route

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    I'm not familiar with anyone doing much aftermarket tuning on the 718 Cayman or Boxster. 2017 was their first model year and so you're just now getting cars out of warranty. This car will be a 65th birthday present to myself, and let's face it, I'm not getting faster, I'm getting older. and 300 hp should be plenty for my needs. I think there's a good following on some of the earlier water cooled Porsches, say from the 996 and 997 generations, and a ton of interest on hot rodding the air cooled cars, but not so much on the later cars.

    My impression of the Boxster/Cayman is that they're not the easiest cars to work on, with a lift being pretty close to mandatory. I'm not planning on DIYing the maintenance on this car, other than the brakes, since I'll be using them up on the track.
     
  36. Matthew Johnson

    Matthew Johnson Filing Flight Plan

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    I have found my 987.1 to be surprisingly easy to work on: with the ability to remove covers on both the top and front of the engine the access to everything except the sparkplugs is amazing. As an example, changing out the front end accessory drive belt takes ~ 30 minutes total.
     
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  37. FormerHangie

    FormerHangie En-Route

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    For those of you who were suggesting a Tesla for track duty, the results are out for Car and Driver's Lightning Lap test for 2021. The Porsche Taycan was the first EV that completed a lap at full speed, and acquitted itself quite nicely, but it couldn't do two consecutive laps without the car limiting power due to battery temperature. The first and only time a Tesla attempted the Lightning Lap was in 2016, where it only completed a quarter lap before the battery reached its limit temperature and continued at reduced power. Don't get me wrong, I'm driving a plug in hybrid, and EVing around town is wonderful, but it's not a technology that's ready for the track. C & D asked Tesla for a suitable car for this year's Lightning Lap, but Tesla declined.

    On an unrelated note, I'm signed up to drive a Cayman at the Porsche Driving Experience in a couple of weeks. I'll let you know what I think when I get back.
     
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  38. FormerHangie

    FormerHangie En-Route

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    I did my Cayman drive today. The Porsche Experience Center is nestled between Interstate 75 and KATL, close enough to hear the highway, and also get a good look at the airliners as the arrive.

    PEC_Track.jpg

    Fast cars zipping around a track and aircraft operations, what's not to like?

    PEC_Cars.jpg

    It's a very impressive facility. There's a 1 mile handling circuit, dry and wet skidpads, an area where a slalom is set up that is also used for launch control demonstrations, a handling course with polished concrete to reduce grip, and a kick plate area. Each driver gets his/her own instructor. Normally, the instructor would ride with you, but for Covid reasons, it's been turned into a lead/follow format. My instructor was also in a Cayman, and talked to me over the radio, which worked very well.

    We spent a few minutes familiarizing me with the car and getting the seat and wheel adjusted, and off we went for a few laps around the handling circuit. It's mostly low speed, but there is a little straight where we probably got to 70 mph. After a couple of laps, he pulled us into the kickplate area. The drill there is you get up to about 20 mph, and when you get to the kickplate, it sends the rear wheels either to the left or the right. The surface you go onto is both painted and wet, so it's kind of slippery. Your goal is to catch the rear end and keep going straight. If you do that, there are some movable fences that pop up and you try to slalom around' First time I tried it I was able to catch the rear end and keep going, so the second time my instructor asked me to go a little faster, with the same result. Third time he asked me to turn traction control off, which I did, but still was able to gather the car back in and keep going, so I guess I passed that part.

    Next up was the slalom. I'm guessing most of us have done one of these. Driving a slalom is generally as much fun as the car is good, and the Cayman is very good at it. After a few runs, it was time to try launch control, which is only on those Caymans with the dual clutch automatic and one of the performance options, Sport Chrono. The drill is simple, left foot on the brake, hard, both hands on the wheel, right foot to the floor on the accelerator, wait for the launch control message to come up on the panel, and release the brake. Off you go, hard, with a minimum of wheelspin. It's lots of fun. At the other end of the run, you're asked to use full ABS brakes, and the car stops in an amazingly short distance.

    From here we went to the wet skidpad, for two drills. First up is to make the car understeer by gradually increasing the power until the car starts to drift to the edge of the skidpad. When the car starts to push, traction control intervenes, and an easing of the accelerator sets everything back to where you're lapping the skidpad smoothly. Next up, is an attempt to demonstrate oversteer. I say attempt because the Cayman doesn't like to oversteer very much, especially at low speeds , and most of my attempts to get it to oversteer ended up in a spin.

    After enough spinning to where my neck was getting sore, we went off to polished concrete handling course. The purpose of this is to let drivers feel what it's like to approach the limit of adhesion but a much lower speed and G force than you'd have on a normal surface. We again tried to get the tail to come out, but it really didn't want to, so we just drove it on the racing line, where it behaved perfectly.

    Now that we were done with the infield activities, we went back to the handling circuit. We had about 25 minutes left, and my instructor said something over the radio about most drivers not wanting to do 25 minutes on the handling circuit. I had no way of answering back, but he seemed to pick up on that was exactly what I wanted to do. Doing lap after lap of the handling circuit I could start getting grooved in on what the Cayman is like. It's very precise, and small changes in the inputs you give it make a difference in how it responds. The car I was driving had the sport exhaust, which I would not get, but it had a distinctive four cylinder growl reminiscent of what race tuned Porsche 356s had. It's not as mellifluous as the six cylinder cars, but it's good in its own way.

    Earlier this week I was getting cold feet about this whole idea. Going and driving this car removed all doubts. I learned that 300 horsepower is plenty, and that this is the car I want.

    If you're interested in driving, I'd recommend it, it's a very good learning experience on a facility most of us never get a chance to drive on. Because of its low speed nature, there's no need to get one of the faster cars, although one of those launch control drives in a Taycan Turbo S or 911 Turbo S could be literally breathtaking.
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2021 at 8:49 PM
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  39. Ted

    Ted The pilot formerly known as Twin Engine Ted

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    This sounds like a ton of fun. Maybe this would be a good road trip in the RV or otherwise for us. How far out does booking seem to need to be?
     
  40. Bill

    Bill Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Yeah, after that description, it seems like a day (and money) well spent!

    in!
     
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