Taking the IFR written Monday...
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dmspilot
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It is.
I see this has been discussed before: https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/class-g.113472/
PS: let's see if I understand the takeaway:
If you are IFR rated, then you can fly in IMC in uncontrolled airspace. This does not require an IFR clearance. Legal, but obviously not safe (you can't see and avoid, and nobody is providing separation).
If you are not IFR rated, then it is illegal to fly in IMC at any time, in any airspace (the FAA moonless night letter says a VFR pilot can log actual instrument time under certain conditions, but that is not the same thing - it's not flying in IMC).
PPS: the FAA Lamb interpretation seems relevant.
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UngaWunga
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@LowHrsMan, hope the test went well!
MauleSkinner
Touchdown! Greaser!
LowHrsMan
Pre-Flight
Passed with 97%
Here's another incorrect or misleading question in the IFR ground school:
Q: When are ATIS broadcasts updated?
A) Every 30 minutes if weather conditions are below basic VFR; otherwise hourly
B) Upon receipt of any official weather, regardless of content change or reported values
C) Only when the ceiling and/or visibility changes by a reportable value
(a) is wrong because IFR/VFR is not a factor, and ATIS can also change immediately to include unexpected significant weather changes
Both (b) and (c) are wrong because they don't mention the fact that ATIS normally updates in the last 10 minutes of each hour, even if nothing has changed.
The full & correct answer should be "During the last 10 minutes of each hour, or more often if significant weather changes occur".
Q: When are ATIS broadcasts updated?
A) Every 30 minutes if weather conditions are below basic VFR; otherwise hourly
B) Upon receipt of any official weather, regardless of content change or reported values
C) Only when the ceiling and/or visibility changes by a reportable value
(a) is wrong because IFR/VFR is not a factor, and ATIS can also change immediately to include unexpected significant weather changes
Both (b) and (c) are wrong because they don't mention the fact that ATIS normally updates in the last 10 minutes of each hour, even if nothing has changed.
The full & correct answer should be "During the last 10 minutes of each hour, or more often if significant weather changes occur".
RussR
Final Approach
I think B is the most correct, although I agree it's a lousy set of answers.
My information is dated, but I'm pretty sure when I worked in AF towers 20+ years ago, we would record a new ATIS whenever we got updated weather. However, this weather update would typically only be in the last 10 minutes of the hour, unless something changed that met certain criteria. We did have actual human weather observers, though, there was no automated update every 20 minutes or anything. And those weather observers applied the certain criteria throughout that hour to see if they needed to send us updates (for which we'd then record a new ATIS).
But that level of knowledge is way beyond what a pilot should be expected to know.
Yet another one:
MOAs are established to:
A. prohibit all civil aircraft because of hazardous or secret activities
B. separate certain military activities from IFR traffic
C. restrict civil aircraft during periods of high-density training activities
In short, all 3 answers are wrong.
A is wrong because they don't prohibit all civil aircraft.
B is wrong because the separation applies to all civil aircraft, not just IFR but also VFR
C is wrong because that is what a Restricted area is for
The test expects (B) most likely because somebody at the FAA decided this was the "least bad" answer.
MOAs are established to:
A. prohibit all civil aircraft because of hazardous or secret activities
B. separate certain military activities from IFR traffic
C. restrict civil aircraft during periods of high-density training activities
In short, all 3 answers are wrong.
A is wrong because they don't prohibit all civil aircraft.
B is wrong because the separation applies to all civil aircraft, not just IFR but also VFR
C is wrong because that is what a Restricted area is for
The test expects (B) most likely because somebody at the FAA decided this was the "least bad" answer.
Good point! It hinges on what exactly they mean by "separate". I incorrectly took it to imply the general sense, as "we want to separate military from civilian traffic (whether VFR or IFR)". Yet apparently the question implies the specific sense of "ATC Separation" and comes directly from AIM 3-4-5.
This implies that if you're planning an IFR flight, you can ignore MOAs because ATC will deal with them for you. If they send you through, they are providing separation for you. And if they can't do that, they'll vector you around the MOA.
RussR
Final Approach
B is definitely correct, and I don't think you need to get into the details of what ATC separation means, either.
MOAs don't separate military activities from VFR traffic, because VFR traffic is allowed to fly through a MOA all they want without talking to anybody. Therefore it doesn't provide any kind of separation, whereas IFR traffic will be routed around an active MOA, obviously keeping the two activities separated.
dmspilot
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That's when they typically receive official weather, so B is the correct answer.
MOAs do not separate VFR traffic from military traffic
Not understanding the question =/= Question is wrong
Perhaps, but it's misleading for 2 reasons. First, because ATIS normally updates in the last 10 minutes of each hour, which the answer doesn't mention. Second, because the ATIS will change off-schedule to reflect unexpected or significant weather changes. Yet the answer's wording "regardless of content change or reported values" suggests the opposite of this.
dmspilot
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That's when weather reports are issued, so the answer does reflect that.
Huh? The answer suggests the opposite of what it says?
Dictionary definition:
Regardless: without regard to, despite or not being affected by
ATIS weather is commonly updated out of sequence because of reported values of changing weather, when those changes are deemed significant or impactful to operations. This is the opposite of regardless of reported values of changing weather.
For example: suppose a towered airport is reporting 3 miles visibility and 800 OVC at 15:55Z so it is IFR. At 16:15Z the clouds lift to 1100. The next ATIS report wasn't due until 16:55Z, but the weather change would allow VFR operations so they don't wait 40 minutes but issue an immediate ATIS update. On the other hand, if at 16:15Z the clouds lifted to 900 OVC, it doesn't make any significant impact to operations so they don't update the ATIS. In both cases they have received an official weather report. Whether they update the ATIS depends on the contents of that report and its impact to operations.
What this means is that ATIS updates are not made regardless of reported values of changing weather. They are commonly made because of reported values of changing weather.
dmspilot
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No. The ATIS was updated because new official weather was received. If the new weather is not different than the old weather, the ATIS is still updated. That's what regardless means.
OK so we agree on what "regardless" means. Yet what you describe is not what happens in reality. I've seen ATIS change out of schedule when tower receives updated weather. And I've seen ATIS not update when they receive updated weather. I've seen it go either way depending on whether in their judgement the weather update they received is significant enough to change the ATIS. That's not "regardless".
Looking this up, I believe I found the source of my confusion: AIM 2-9-2. Part a.1 has the phrase, "Upon receipt of any new official weather regardless of whether there is or is not a change in values." which is repeated in the question - and your point. However, part a.3 says, "When there is a change in any other pertinent data, such as runway change, instrument approach in use, new or canceled NOTAMs/PIREPs update, etc." - the point I am making. In this case, the ATIS update is not regardless of the information, but ATIS may or may not update depending on whether they judge it to be pertinent.
Does a PIREP constitute official weather information? It seems official, since once reported it is propagated through the system and shared with other pilots. According to AIM 2-9-2, the tower can receive a weather PIREP and not update the ATIS if they deem the PIREP not pertinent.
So my confusion stems from familiarity through experience with how ATIS actually updates, while the question refers to regulatory language in the AIM, taking one clause out of context.
dmspilot
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Regardless of whether B is 100% correct or only 75% correct, the other choices are 0% correct.
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Lindberg
Final Approach
You misunderstood the call of the question. It's not requesting an exhaustive list of reasons ATIS will be updated; it's asking which of the possible answers identifies a reason ATIS will be updated.
write-stuff
En-Route
You are 100% right. It's a common mistake I hear so many times.
OK here's another one:
Q: What conditions are necessary before ATC can authorize a visual approach?
A. You must have the preceding aircraft in sight, and be able to remain in VFR weather conditions
B. You must have the airport in sight or the preceding aircraft in sight, and be able to proceed to, and land in IFR conditions.
C. You must have the airport in sight or a preceding aircraft to be followed, and be able to proceed to, and land in VFR conditions.
A. is wrong because you can have the airport in sight instead of a preceding aircraft.
B. is wrong because the landing must be in VFR conditions (field must have 3 miles visibility and >= 1000' ceiling).
C. is wrong because during the visual approach you only need to remain clear of clouds, VFR cloud clearances are not required (AIM 7-4-1).
It says the correct answer is (C) - which is a clear contradiction with AIM 7-4-1. The field must have 3 miles visibility and 1000' ceilings, but when you are "proceeding to" the field you don't need to maintain VFR conditions while you keep it in sight.
Q: What conditions are necessary before ATC can authorize a visual approach?
A. You must have the preceding aircraft in sight, and be able to remain in VFR weather conditions
B. You must have the airport in sight or the preceding aircraft in sight, and be able to proceed to, and land in IFR conditions.
C. You must have the airport in sight or a preceding aircraft to be followed, and be able to proceed to, and land in VFR conditions.
A. is wrong because you can have the airport in sight instead of a preceding aircraft.
B. is wrong because the landing must be in VFR conditions (field must have 3 miles visibility and >= 1000' ceiling).
C. is wrong because during the visual approach you only need to remain clear of clouds, VFR cloud clearances are not required (AIM 7-4-1).
It says the correct answer is (C) - which is a clear contradiction with AIM 7-4-1. The field must have 3 miles visibility and 1000' ceilings, but when you are "proceeding to" the field you don't need to maintain VFR conditions while you keep it in sight.
RussR
Final Approach
And this is why some people finish the test in 30 minutes, and others struggle and use the full 2.5 hours. The answer is obviously C, as the "most correct" answer. B is right out, and A is merely an incomplete version of C. You answer C and move on.
That's just "test taking 101".
StraightnLevel
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As I'm prepping for the IFR written, this is making my head hurt. Even in the practice tests it's messing with me to have no single answer that is 100% correct.
Why do the test writers do this stuff? What's the intent?
I speculate the idea is that when faced with 3 possibilities all of which are misleading or wrong, deciding which is "least wrong" promotes deeper thought about the regulations and why they exist.
As I'm prepping for the IFR written, this is making my head hurt. Even in the practice tests it's messing with me to have no single answer that is 100% correct.
Why do the test writers do this stuff? What's the intent?
That said, I share your frustration!
write-stuff
En-Route
Yep, that's the question. AIM 7-4-1 says airport must be VFR, but "clear of clouds" means you aren't required to maintain VFR while proceeding toward it.
write-stuff
En-Route
I understand, and yes, including "and land in..." would have been better. But of the three available answers, #3 is the clear winner.
Yes, but further: due to the AIM mentioning "clear of clouds", I would expect the correct answer to omit the "proceed" phrase entirely and state only "land in VFR conditions". That is, "You must have the airport in sight or a preceding aircraft to be followed, and be able to land in VFR conditions."
MauleSkinner
Touchdown! Greaser!
in this case, “VFR conditions” refers to the airport’s reported weather, not VMC.
What you find when you write documentation and/or test questions is that something perfectly clear to the writer doesn’t necessarily come across clearly to the reader. That doesn’t make it wrong, but it means that you have to select the “best” answer.
midwestpa24
Final Approach
Wait until you get into contact approaches!
The only thing I ever learned studying for my Instrument written about contact approaches is that they must be requested by the pilot, ATC can't offer them. Beyond that, I had no other clue until I actually had the opportunity to do one.
The easiest way I can explain a contact approach in lay terms, its a lot like Special VFR, but you are still on an IFR clearance.
The only thing I ever learned studying for my Instrument written about contact approaches is that they must be requested by the pilot, ATC can't offer them. Beyond that, I had no other clue until I actually had the opportunity to do one.
The easiest way I can explain a contact approach in lay terms, its a lot like Special VFR, but you are still on an IFR clearance.
Studying contact approaches, they seem to increase risk without much if any benefit. You can't get one unless the destination airport has an IAP. So why why not fly the IAP instead?
Reasons I can think of
1. Airport ceilings are below IAP minimums, but visibility is >= 1 mile, so the contact approach enables you to fly it anyway if you can remain clear of clouds.
2. You are so low on fuel that you can't fly the IAP but must go direct.
3. You can see the airport and fly to it remaining clear of clouds, but the airport conditions are less than VFR, so you can't get a visual approach.
(1) is really bad - don't do that!
(2) if your fuel situation is that bad you're better off declaring an emergency
(3) perhaps makes sense... just a convenience to save time
midwestpa24
Final Approach
My one and only contact approach, this was exactly the reason why. We were coming into our home base, the airport was less than 3 miles due to spotty showers. Ceilings were high enough, we were right under the bases hoping to get the visual but wasn't happening. We knew exactly where we were, could remain visual to the airport, but we less than VFR mins. Didn't want to shoot the approach because it would have taken us 10 minutes out of our way to the IAF and back, plus would have taken us through some heavy rain. It was no different than requesting a Special VFR, and that was when it finally clicked what a contact approach was and how to use it.
MauleSkinner
Touchdown! Greaser!
You don’t even need to be able to see the airport.
Its also helpful if you can get Approach to vector you over the airport for a contact approach before they take you 15 miles past for the ILS.
True - but if you can't then it seems advisable to ask yourself why you're requesting a contact approach - instead of simply flying the IAP. Thinking ahead, I imagine that may end up becoming one my personal rules.
MauleSkinner
Touchdown! Greaser!
As @midwestpa24 indicated, it’s just like requesting SVFR. You have the required weather and flight visibility, and believe you can maintain it.
midwestpa24
Final Approach
In my example, I couldn't see the airport, but I was quite literally over my own house 5 miles from the airport when we dropped out of the bases. Even though I couldn't see the airport due to rain visibility, I was clear of the clouds and knew my way home. There was little danger of getting lost, disoriented, or hitting obstructions. The contact approach saved us a bunch of time versus getting vectored out 15+ miles outside of the IAF, and we also avoided flying into nastier weather while on a regular approach.
Its use may be limited, but a contact approach is another tool in the toolbox.
Or the example of parallel runways. One has an instrument approach the other doesn't. No sidestep or circling available. Or an Ndb/dme circle to land approaching from over water perpendicular to runway. Request a contact prior to map to pick up shoreline and follow to runway.