Class G

mscard88

mscard88

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What a crazy topic and the answers one gets when asking Class G questions.

So, is it smart to fly in Class G if it's IMC? Legal? 91.119? 91.13? Bueller?
 
What do you mean by "flying in class G." Are you trying to go enroute? That's next to impossible. There isn't enough class G at enroute altitudes to even attempt it.
Remember that the IFR rules (such as minimum altitude) still apply. You're just on your own (not ATC clearance required or available).

If you mean takeoff or land in a class G. Sure, it happens all the time. How else do you get in and out of fields that don't have a "SURFACE ARE OF CONTROLLED AIRSPACE DESIGNATED FOR AN AIRPORT" (I really miss "control zone"). Of course, ATC has held that you are reckless if you don't also have a clearance for the abutting controlled airspace that you are heading for.
 
mscard88 said:
What a crazy topic and the answers one gets when asking Class G questions.

So, is it smart to fly in Class G if it's IMC? Legal? 91.119? 91.13? Bueller?
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I assume you're asking about an IMC flight solely in Class G airspace. It's legal. You must comply with all applicable FARs. Compliance is not possible where controlled airspace begins at 1200' AGL or lower due to FARs 91.177 and 91.179. Even then you must have VMC before descending below the minimum IFR altitude.
 
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There is previous case law for departing IFR into class G and emerging VFR before encountering Class E. In that case the pilot was not found to have violated 91.119 (so the departure in and of itself was not illegal or in violation of flight visibility rules) but was found in violation of 91.13 and meted out a 90 day suspension for potentially endangering other aircraft in the area that would not have been visible, or pointed out by ATC.
 
mscard88 said:
What a crazy topic and the answers one gets when asking Class G questions.

So, is it smart to fly in Class G if it's IMC? Legal? 91.119? 91.13? Bueller?
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It is a question which made more sense when there were large areas where you could take off, fly enroute, approach, and land entirely in Class G airspace while maintainin the require minimum IFR altitudes under 91.177.

There's a reason the cases which have come along deal with folks who have taken off without a clearance on their way to Class E and above.

But, other than those interesting academic discussions , yes, folks take off in Class G legally and safely every day when the take off from a Class G airport (with a clearance into controlled airspace) when the cloud deck is below the Class E threshold.
 
Blatham489 said:
Smart, no, legal, yes.
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That.

But there was the one time in band camp where a float plane departed a lake to climb to get their IFR...but never mind ;)
 
I've flown a DC8 IFR in Class G airspace at altitudes as high as FL240, but that wasn't over the CONUS.
 
MauleSkinner said:
On the other hand, if “it’s IFR”, that class G airspace is very usable for VFR.
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EH? IMC is IMC. There are cloud clearance and visibility minimums for VFR in class G (they're just different than other airspace).
 
chemgeek said:
There is previous case law for departing IFR into class G and emerging VFR before encountering Class E. In that case the pilot was not found to have violated 91.119 (so the departure in and of itself was not illegal or in violation of flight visibility rules) but was found in violation of 91.13 and meted out a 90 day suspension for potentially endangering other aircraft in the area that would not have been visible, or pointed out by ATC.
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I mentioned that in the third post in this thread. The holding in the enforcement action (I'd refrain to call it case law) was that IFR departure from a class G field without a existing clearance for the overlying controlled airspace was careless and reckless.

Note this case is a bit muddled as there was severe doubts that the pilot was indeed operating IFR (legally without a clearance in class G) or VFR.

https://www.ntsb.gov/legal/alj/OnODocuments/Aviation/3935.PDF
 
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There are still some pretty good-sized areas of class G at en-route altitudes in Alaska, based on what I see on the charts.
 
flyingron said:
EH? IMC is IMC. There are cloud clearance and visibility minimums for VFR in class G (they're just different than other airspace).
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But IMC isn't IFR.

dmspilot said:
How can you fly VFR if it's IFR?
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"It's IFR" with regard to weather is up to 1000 & 3...good enough to fly VFR in class G.
 
MauleSkinner said:
But IMC isn't IFR.


"It's IFR" with regard to weather is up to 1000 & 3...good enough to fly VFR in class G.
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1000 & 3 only applies to controlled airspace. If it's good enough to fly VFR in Class G then it's not IFR.
 
dmspilot said:
How can you fly VFR if it's IFR?
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dmspilot said:
1000 & 3 only applies to controlled airspace. If it's good enough to fly VFR in Class G then it's not IFR.
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Relating to weather conditions: VMC and IMC.

Relating to the rules: VFR and IFR.

Using those terms loosely leads to a lot of the confusion.
 
MauleSkinner said:
But IMC isn't IFR.


"It's IFR" with regard to weather is up to 1000 & 3...good enough to fly VFR in class G.
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Eh, this is nonsensical. In low altitude, class G, the VFR mins are a mile and clear of clouds during the day. Worse than that, you must be operating under IFR or you're busing the regs.
 
flyingron said:
Eh, this is nonsensical. In low altitude, class G, the VFR mins are a mile and clear of clouds during the day. Worse than that, you must be operating under IFR or you're busing the regs.
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I agree...fortunately most of "up to 1000 & 3" is above a mile.
 
FastEddieB said:
Relating to weather conditions: VMC and IMC.

Relating to the rules: VFR and IFR.

Using those terms loosely leads to a lot of the confusion.
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VMC and IMC are flight conditions, not weather conditions.

Just to avoid confusion. ;)
 
MauleSkinner said:
Key words..."up" and "to".
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Those are not the key words. 1000 & 3 is irrelevant to Class G, whether it's up to, down from, up from, down to, including, excluding, or any other modifier you can think of, it doesn't matter.

You wrote that you can fly VFR in Class G even if it's IFR, and that IFR is up to 1000 & 3, then try to insinuate that you weren't wrong about the definition of the IFR because of the "up to", when that still doesn't make your first statement correct.
 
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dmspilot said:
Those are not the key words. 1000 & 3 is irrelevant to Class G, whether it's up to, down from, up from, down to, including, excluding, or any other modifier you can think of, it doesn't matter.
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It matters at night.
 
So how many G spots are there left in the Continental US above 1200 AGL. I found 7
 
dmspilot said:
Those are not the key words. 1000 & 3 is irrelevant to Class G, whether it's up to, down from, up from, down to, including, excluding, or any other modifier you can think of, it doesn't matter.

You wrote that you can fly VFR in Class G even if it's IFR, and that IFR is up to 1000 & 3, then try to insinuate that you weren't wrong about the definition of the IFR because of the "up to", when that still doesn't make your first statement correct.
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Ok...how about when the briefer says “it’s IFR”, I can fly VFR in class G airspace because it’s better than a mile vis?
 
MauleSkinner said:
Ok...how about when the briefer says “it’s IFR”, I can fly VFR in class G airspace because it’s better than a mile vis?
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The briefing must be using the term incorrectly. That doesn't mean you should.
 
dmspilot said:
The briefing must be using the term incorrectly. That doesn't mean you should.
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He’s using it the same way it’s used in the AIM, by the NWS, and others...
1. LIFR (Low IFR). Ceiling less than 500 feet and/or visibility less than 1 mile.
2. IFR. Ceiling 500 to less than 1,000 feet and/or visibility 1 to less than 3 miles.
3. MVFR (Marginal VFR). Ceiling 1,000 to 3,000 feet and/or visibility 3 to 5 miles inclusive.
4. VFR. Ceiling greater than 3,000 feet and visibility greater than 5 miles; includes sky clear.
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MauleSkinner said:
He’s using it the same way it’s used in the AIM, by the NWS, and others...
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In the AIM only in one place that I can find, 7-1-7, preceded by "Categorical outlook terms, describing general ceiling and visibility conditions for advanced planning purposes are used only in area forecasts". Context occasionally changes the meaning of a word.

You want to apply the AIM context to what you wrote earlier? Well that still doesn't work, VFR and IFR are still mutually exclusive in that context also.

You were using the Part 91 definition for VFR, but are trying to claim that you were using the AIM 7-1-7 definition for IFR. You can't pick and choose and use one context for one term and the other context for the other term in the same sentence, unless you explicitly state that's what you're doing.
 
dmspilot said:
In the AIM only in one place that I can find, 7-1-7, preceded by "Categorical outlook terms, describing general ceiling and visibility conditions for advanced planning purposes are used only in area forecasts". Context occasionally changes the meaning of a word.

You want to apply the AIM context to what you wrote earlier? Well that still doesn't work, VFR and IFR are still mutually exclusive in that context also.

You were using the Part 91 definition for VFR, but are trying to claim that you were using the AIM 7-1-7 definition for IFR. You can't pick and choose and use one context for one term and the other context for the other term in the same sentence, unless you explicitly state that's what you're doing.
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So you’re saying you agree that a briefing of “It's IFR” is pretty ridiculous?
 
The only time ceilings matter for VFR is when operating below them in a SURFACE AREA OF CONTROLLED AIRSPACE DESIGNATED FOR AN AIRPORT.

Outside the airspace formerly known as a control zone, you can fly along under a 700 overcast all you want or you can fly "on top" in 000 OVC anywhere in the US.
 
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