Taking the IFR written Monday...

LowHrsMan said:
That would be fine if they would get rid of questions where the scored correct answer is 100% wrong. There are currently at least 2 questions where that is the case.
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They are more likely to get corrected if memorization “goes away.”
 
WDD said:
My bad. But IMHO it’s still wrong

Getting back to needed attitude is important of course, but getting back to attitude outside of Va is going to stress the plane. You won’t be able to hold attitude if you snap off a wing.
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I agree that slowing down to Va is the most important, which is the answer I picked that was marked incorrect.
Maintaining level flight attitude is still important, in order to avoid getting into unusual attitudes. In my view, it's secondary after Va.
Forcing the applicant to pick just one is misleading right out of the gate. The fully correct answer is both.
But if you're going to pick just one, it should be the most important which in my view is Va, not level flight attitude.
 
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MRC01 said:
I agree that slowing down to Va is the most important, which is the answer I picked that was marked incorrect.
Maintaining level flight attitude is still important, in order to avoid getting into unusual attitudes. In my view, it's secondary after Va.
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Va is technically not a turbulence speed. It’s listed synonymously in a lot of POHs, but by FAA definition, it’s not.

Maintaining attitude is not about avoiding unusual attitudes, but rather about not chasing airspeed and altitude fluctuations with pitch and making things worse.
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write-stuff said:
If you can provide me with known test questions whose answers are 100% wrong, please let me know what they are. We have a pretty good track record of getting these types of questions removed.
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Here are some examples:

There's one question about a hold entry where the answer could be either teardrop or parallel (it's within 10 degrees of either). In that case, the order precedence should be #1 direct, #2 teardrop, #3 parallel, so the answer should be teardrop but parallel is scored correctly.

There's another question about a hold entry that quotes ATC as "Hold east on the XYZ VOR on the one eight zero radial", which is ambiguous since holding east is not on R180.

There's yet another question that asks for a decent rate in ft/m on a 3 degree GS without giving airspeed or ground speed. If you guess 60 kts you get the right answer.

Note I saw all these questions in the test prep software, not on my actual test.

LHM
 
LowHrsMan said:
And test memorization won't go away until questions with wrong answers go away. Classic chicken and egg problem.
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If AIG gets implemented and memorizing becomes useless, memorization goes away whether questions are fixed or not.
write-stuff said:
PSI/FAA plans on releasing what they call AIG (Automatic Item Generation) later this year. This will allow for dynamically generated questions with randomized variables. Once this hits, memorizing questions/answers will become a useless study strategy.
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LowHrsMan said:
... There's another question about a hold entry that quotes ATC as "Hold east on the XYZ VOR on the one eight zero radial", which is ambiguous since holding east is not on R180. ...
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I've seen this question. FWIW, my interpretation was this: if the hold instruction were "hold on the XYZ VOR 1-8-0 radial" and nothing more, one assumes the given radial is inbound with right turns, which puts you east of the VOR. So the term "east" is unnecessary, but not ambiguous.
 
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MRC01 said:
I don't know about 100% wrong, but in my IFR ground school I've found one question that is at least 50% wrong:

Q: Flying into severe turbulence, what should you maintain?
One of the options is airspeed Va, another option is level flight attitude.

Of course you want to maintain both: slow down to Va and maintain level flight attitude. But they are separate options - you can't select both. The answer that the FAA wants to see is maintain level flight attitude. This is misleading since it implies that slowing down from cruise speed is not important. Yet in severe turbulence, if you don't slow down to Va then the turbulence can damage the airframe, even rip the wings off.

I saw this question in ground school prep, I haven't seen it on the IFR test. I reported this test question to Gleim just in case the problem is theirs, not the FAA.

Note to moderators: because I haven't seen this question on an IFR test, I don't believe this post constitutes posting test questions & answers online. It came from ground school and therefore is educational discussion. But if you feel that this post does violate FAA rules about tests, feel free to delete it, or ask me to do so.
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That question is not one of the "100% wrong" ones I had in mind because the answer is right out of the AIM. You could argue that the AIM is wrong and getting the plane to Va is more important than holding attitude, but that's a different problem than the test answer being wrong.
 
MRC01 said:
I've seen this question. FWIW, my interpretation was this: if the hold instruction were "hold on the XYZ VOR 1-8-0 radial" and nothing more, one assumes the given radial is inbound with right turns, which puts you east of the VOR. So the term "east" is unnecessary, but not ambiguous.
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True enough, but in a real hold I'd ask ATC for clarification. Pretty sure the test question language would be considered non-standard by ATC regs.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Va is technically not a turbulence speed. It’s listed synonymously in a lot of POHs, but by FAA definition, it’s not.

Maintaining attitude is not about avoiding unusual attitudes, but rather about not chasing airspeed fluctuations with pitch and making things worse.
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Agreed that holding constant attitude is important, and thanks for the AIM reference. But if you are at cruise speed (above Va) when you encounter severe turbulence, and you don't slow down to Va or slower, then what good does your constant attitude do if the wings are ripped off the airplane?
 
MRC01 said:
Agreed that holding constant attitude is important, and thanks for the AIM reference. But if you are at cruise speed (above Va) when you encounter severe turbulence, and you don't slow down to Va or slower, then what good does your constant attitude do if the wings are ripped off the airplane?
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why would you slow down to a speed at which you can make a full flight control input instead of a speed for turbulence penetration?
 
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MRC01 said:
I agree that slowing down to Va is the most important, which is the answer I picked that was marked incorrect.
Maintaining level flight attitude is still important, in order to avoid getting into unusual attitudes. In my view, it's secondary after Va.
Forcing the applicant to pick just one is misleading right out of the gate. The fully correct answer is both.
But if you're going to pick just one, it should be the most important which in my view is Va, not level flight attitude.
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You cannot maintain a specific airspeed in severe turbulence. Aside from being impossible, attempting to do so will increase G-loads on the aircraft. Maintaining level attitude is more important. You always pick the "most correct" answer. That's how standardized tests work. Maintaining level is more correct than maintaining a specific airspeed.
 
MRC01 said:
I don't know about 100% wrong, but in my IFR ground school I've found one question that is at least 50% wrong:

Q: Flying into severe turbulence, what should you maintain?
One of the options is airspeed Va, another option is level flight attitude.
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If that was a question in the FAA database with both Va and a level attitude as separate answers, I would agree that it was problematic. I cannot approach the powers-that-be with speculation about possibly-existing questions. But if you can find further corroboration, that would be one worth pursuing. In the question database in Gold Seal, here's how the question is worded.

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MauleSkinner said:
I notice that your database, you also differentiate between maneuvering speed (Va) and a turbulence penetration speed.
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Correct. Va is what it is, based on weight. Turbulence penetration speed would (possibly) be defined by the manufacturer. I think in most cases they would be the same, although turbulence penetration speed might be lower than Va.
 
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write-stuff said:
Correct. Va is what it is, based on weight. Turbulence penetration speed would (possibly) be defined by the manufacturer. I think in most cases they would be the same.
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In a lot of cases they are the same speed, but the difference in definition makes Va an incorrect answer. In my work airplane (admittedly not a light GA airplane) there’s a significant variation in Va with altitude, and all of it will be faster than turbulence penetration speed.
 
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MauleSkinner said:
why would you slow down to a speed at which you can make a full flight control input instead of a speed for turbulence penetration?
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dmspilot said:
You cannot maintain a specific airspeed in severe turbulence. Maintaining level attitude is more important. You always pick the "most correct" answer. That's how standardized tests work. Maintaining level is more correct than maintaining a specific airspeed.
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I understand. However... the point is, you need to slow down when encountering severe turbulence and the question omitted this. Vb is often the same as Va, though it may be slower (they're the same for the 172N). Vb isn't always in the POH, in which case consider it as "Va or slower".

write-stuff said:
If that was a question in the FAA database with both Va and a level attitude as separate answers, I would agree that it was problematic. I cannot approach the powers-that-be with speculation about possibly-existing questions. But if you can find further corroboration, that would be one worth pursuing. In the question database in Gold Seal, here's how the question is worded.
...
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The question that you showed is much better. It combines slowing down with maintaining a level flight attitude, and differentiates reducing airspeed from setting a power level, and differentiates Va from Vb. :thumbsup:
 
MRC01 said:
I've seen this question. FWIW, my interpretation was this: if the hold instruction were "hold on the XYZ VOR 1-8-0 radial" and nothing more, one assumes the given radial is inbound with right turns, which puts you east of the VOR. So the term "east" is unnecessary, but not ambiguous.
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That's not what the cardinal direction means with regard to holding patterns, though. Any hold at the VOR on the 180 radial would be holding south. Left or right turns, doesn't matter. It's still "south". Holding east of the VOR would require you to be on R-090 (or 080, or 100, or something else close to East).
 
MRC01 said:
I understand. However... the point is, you need to slow down when encountering severe turbulence and the question omitted this. Vb is often the same as Va, though it may be slower (they're the same for the 172N). Vb isn't always in the POH, in which case consider it as "Va or slower".
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Do you have documentation that says “VA or slower” is correct?
 
MRC01 said:
An intuitive understanding of what Va and Vb are suggests that Vb <= Va. I didn't have documentation reference, but just looked it up and found this: https://airfactsjournal.com/2020/12/understanding-vb-turbulence-penetration-speed/
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“An intuitive understanding” is not what the FAA is looking for on a written test. They are looking for your understanding of FAA definitions and terms, which makes Va an incorrect answer in all cases regarding turbulence penetration.
 
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MauleSkinner said:
“An intuitive understanding” is not what the FAA is looking for on a written test. They are looking for your understanding of FAA definitions and terms, which makes Va an incorrect answer in all cases.
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This goes back to the question of book learning and memorizing answers and regulations, versus actual understanding of the principles involved. Given the references in the above article (CFR 25.335), the intuitive understanding that Vb <= Va is correct. Pragmatically, if you don't know what Vb is, and it's not in the POH, use Va or slower, e.g. "no faster than Va".
 
MRC01 said:
This goes back to the question of book learning and memorizing answers and regulations, versus actual understanding of the principles involved. Given the references in the above article (CFR 25.335), the intuitive understanding that Vb <= Va is correct. Pragmatically, if you don't know what Vb is, and it's not in the POH, use Va or slower, e.g. "no faster than Va".
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It also goes back to primacy…if you learn an incorrect association early on, you’ll struggle to correct your understanding.
 
Are we still arguing over a potentially poorly worded question paraphrased here?

The knowledge exams require more than rote memorization and rationalizing one’s own point of view. Since the IRA is a rating that’s applicable to the Private, Commercial, and ATP certificates, the most correct answer (from the test writer’s perspective) is independent of what level certificate the test taker holds.
 
TCABM said:
Are we still arguing over a potentially poorly worded question paraphrased here?
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It seems so.
TCABM said:
The knowledge exams require more than rote memorization and rationalizing one’s own point of view. Since the IRA is a rating that’s applicable to the Private, Commercial, and ATP certificates, the most correct answer (from the test writer’s perspective) is independent of what level certificate the test taker holds.
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If the question is what to do when encountering severe turbulence, some part of the answer must be to reduce airspeed and to maintain level flight attitude. Any answer that doesn't have both elements is at best misleading and at worst simply wrong.
 
MRC01 said:
It seems so.

If the question is what to do when encountering severe turbulence, some part of the answer must be to reduce airspeed and to maintain level flight attitude. Any answer that doesn't have both elements is at best misleading and at worst simply wrong.
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The problem is the test writer did not provide that option, therefore the answer is dependent on the most correct answer given the information provided and the entirety of the body of knowledge referenced.
 
write-stuff said:
Very much an anomaly. I think they switched over to CBT in the early 90s, maybe even late 80s.
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Thanks, I was wondering about that. I do (vaguely) remember my computer test in 1994 being marketed as the "new and improved!" way of taking tests. "Now computerized!" or something like that.
 
RussR said:
Thanks, I was wondering about that. I do (vaguely) remember my computer test in 1994 being marketed as the "new and improved!" way of taking tests. "Now computerized!" or something like that.
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I could be wrong, maybe I'm remembering taking paper practice tests at the FBO and the actual test was on computer. It *was* 24 years ago...
 
In ground school study, I just encountered another question whose "correct" answer seems wrong. Here it is:

Question: When departing from an airport located outside controlled airspace during IMC, you must file an IFR flight plan and receive a clearance before
A: takeoff
B: entering IFR conditions
C: entering class E airspace

I answered (B) because thou shalt not fly in IMC unless you are on an IFR flight plan. But ground school says the correct answer is (C). Why?

PS: this implies that it's legal to fly in IMC outside controlled airspace, without being on an IFR flight plan.

PPS: an alternate explanation: IFR flight cannot be conducted outside controlled airspace, ever - period. Thus it is never legal to fly in IMC outside controlled airspace. In the situation described in the question, taking off in class G airspace, you'd have to maintain class G VFR minimums until entering class E airspace, because you can never obtain an IFR clearance in G airspace. You can legally fly in IMC in uncontrolled airspace (legal but unsafe), but you don't need an IFR clearance unless you enter controlled airspace. Thus the correct answer is (c).
 
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Maybe they have no authority in G? And you’re allowed to be stupid in G?

It might be a pure regulatory question vs “how quickly do you want to die” question. In the real world I would answer “A”.
 
WDD said:
Maybe they have no authority in G? And you’re allowed to be stupid in G?

It might be a pure regulatory question vs “how quickly do you want to die” question. In the real world I would answer “A”.
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Yes, I think so. Check my PPS edit above.
 
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