Survivor liability

AuntPeggy

AuntPeggy

Final Approach
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I have a general question for those who know more than me about the law...
Yes, I know you cannot give me advice, but maybe you can help me understand better.

Let's say that Pop has some rather expensive bad habits. Let's say that Mom is in denial and won't discuss the existence of any problems. Let's say that they have debts in excess of assets in the amounts of six figures and a paltry retirement monthly income that cannot possibly pay off the debts within their lifetimes.

Are the sons and daughters of this couple liable for paying off the debts once Mom and Pop are no longer alive?
 
In my experience, not unless kids co-signed for credit.
 
I believe they can usually take up to the entire estate of Mom and Dad so the kids don't get any inheritance but I don't believe they can collect beyond someone's assets.
 
cowman said:
I believe they can usually take up to the entire estate of Mom and Dad so the kids don't get any inheritance but I don't believe they can collect beyond someone's assets.
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See the article and the link to State statutes. In 30 States that's wrong nowadays, and the number is growing. Many States are passing laws to make people pay for mom and dad's medical bills and/or other specific things. And they're being challenged in court, and people are losing.
 
Debt does not pass from the decedent to descendant.

Tell pop to get a life policy in excess of the debt ...

Don't die in OK without a will. The corrupt local courts and State .gov will take it all.
 
Laws requiring support of living parents and laws requiring the children pay debts is not the same thing.
 
It depends on the state. We just through this prep with my grandmother. The term is filial responsibility. Some states have it, some states don't. Some have it on certain types of debt, and not on others. The states with filial responsibility laws are:

Alaska, Arkansas, California, Connecticut, Delaware, Georgia, Idaho, Indiana, Iowa, Kentucky, Louisiana, Maryland, Massachusetts, Mississippi, Montana, Nevada, New Hampshire, New Jersey, North Carolina, North Dakota, Ohio, Oregon, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, South Dakota, Tennessee, Utah, Vermont, Virginia, West Virginia.
 
OK, sounds like the answer is maybe.

Suppose children get Mom and Pop declared not competent now and try to save home that will soon be auctioned for non-payment of taxes? And children try to get some handle on finances? Will children be liable for all debts once Mom and Dad are gone?
 
AuntPeggy said:
OK, sounds like the answer is maybe.

Suppose children get Mom and Pop declared not competent now and try to save home that will soon be auctioned for non-payment of taxes? And children try to get some handle on finances? Will children be liable for all debts once Mom and Dad are gone?
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See my previous post.
 
EdFred said:
It depends on the state. We just through this prep with my grandmother. The term is filial responsibility. Some states have it, some states don't. Some have it on certain types of debt, and not on others. The states with filial responsibility laws are:

Alaska, Arkansas, California, Connecticut, Delaware, Georgia, Idaho, Indiana, Iowa, Kentucky, Louisiana, Maryland, Massachusetts, Mississippi, Montana, Nevada, New Hampshire, New Jersey, North Carolina, North Dakota, Ohio, Oregon, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, South Dakota, Tennessee, Utah, Vermont, Virginia, West Virginia.
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I Assume that those laws only apply to in-state children, if the child lives out of state, nothing they can do if the child does not live in or have any property in state.
 
teejayevans said:
I Assume that those laws only apply to in-state children, if the child lives out of state, nothing they can do if the child does not live in or have any property in state.
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That would be my assumption as well, but as my parents and still living grandparents live in the same state so we didn't bother to look into interstate responsibility.
 
Yes 30 states, but there seems to be confusion on what the term "filial responspibility" means. In this context, it's saying an adult child with the means to do so must take care of their elderly parents. An interesting trivia fact, this command actually comes from the Bible, yet another example of Christian tradition being made into law.

The question becomes - does that mean you are responsible for your parent's debt after they die. Generally, no, you are not. However if those debts are incurred as part of your responsibility to take care of them, then you might be forced to pay for them. The key here is dividing what is your responsibility and what is not.

Something like a nursing home is clearly your responsibility; you could have had them stay with you at home. Something like a credit card debt probably is not. Somewhere in between is the line.

Of course each state law is different and each state court will have it's own opinions on the dividing lines. I expect some progressive states will lean toward every debt being inherited while others will stop at direct daily care. You need to know law for your state.

In NC, the responsibility is to care for your elderly parents if they do not have the money to do so themselves but failure to do so is a class 1 or class 2 misdemeanor...a criminal offense. If they do have the means, then you're legally off the hook, although morally you're a schmuck if you don't at least visit.
 
AuntPeggy said:
OK, sounds like the answer is maybe.

Suppose children get Mom and Pop declared not competent now and try to save home that will soon be auctioned for non-payment of taxes? And children try to get some handle on finances? Will children be liable for all debts once Mom and Dad are gone?
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You are now getting a complex enough situation you really need to contact an attorney. Filial laws are really convoluted, and the government is acting to protect the financial industry, not you. If you're going to do this, you need exacting information and customized advice.
 
AuntPeggy said:
OK, sounds like the answer is maybe.

Suppose children get Mom and Pop declared not competent now and try to save home that will soon be auctioned for non-payment of taxes? And children try to get some handle on finances? Will children be liable for all debts once Mom and Dad are gone?
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If the parents are declared incompetent, the court would appoint a trustee to oversee their finances. The trustee is not liable to creditors.
 
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AuntPeggy said:
OK, sounds like the answer is maybe.

Suppose children get Mom and Pop declared not competent now and try to save home that will soon be auctioned for non-payment of taxes? And children try to get some handle on finances? Will children be liable for all debts once Mom and Dad are gone?
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If you want to live in Hell, just try to impose a guardianship on a conscious unconsenting adult.

Besides your attorney, there will be a court case worker, an attorney ad-litum, and a guardian ad-litum appointed by the court. You will be paying fee's, and so will the estate of the ward if guardianship is granted.

YOU will be the one who's crazy after a while.... :crazy:
 
txflyer said:
If you want to live in Hell, just try to impose a guardianship on a conscious unconsenting adult.

Besides your attorney, there will be a court case worker, an attorney ad-litum, and a guardian ad-litum appointed by the court. You will be paying fee's, and so will the estate of the ward if guardianship is granted.

YOU will be the one who's crazy after a while.... :crazy:
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Yep, unless there a considerable fortune at stake, this is really not a viable, or in my opinion moral, solution. Fiscal abandon is not insanity.

BTW, I don't know about the laws in his locality, but many places people, especially old people, cannot 'lose their house' due to non payment of taxes. The estate loses the house, but they can't throw you out, they have to wait for you to die.
 
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The bottom line is, although filial responsibility as a concept has existed for centuries, the modern legal version is relatively new and non-uniform. In the absence of a filial responsibility statute, the general answer is no, with exceptions involving, among other things, contractual obligations the child may have assumed and property transfers in order to avoid debt payment.

If this is an academic question there is no good uniform answer. If it involves a real situation, whether because a death has already occurred or one is doing some advance planning just in case, sitting down with an attorney to determine what rules may be applicable and what strategies may be viable is the only sensible way to go.
 
midlifeflyer said:
The bottom line is, although filial responsibility as a concept has existed for centuries, the modern legal version is relatively new and non-uniform. In the absence of a filial responsibility statute, the general answer is no, with exceptions involving, among other things, contractual obligations the child may have assumed and property transfers in order to avoid debt payment.

If this is an academic question there is no good uniform answer. If it involves a real situation, whether because a death has already occurred or one is doing some advance planning just in case, sitting down with an attorney to determine what rules may be applicable and what strategies may be viable is the only sensible way to go.
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Yep, this will not be simple if you want to pursue it, it will likely cost $100k if it turns into a ****ing match, and even then you aren't assured to win.

You can however pay the property tax without, in most places, exposing yourself, plus you secure an independent interest in the property.
 
midlifeflyer said:
The bottom line is, although filial responsibility as a concept has existed for centuries, the modern legal version is relatively new and non-uniform. In the absence of a filial responsibility statute, the general answer is no, with exceptions involving, among other things, contractual obligations the child may have assumed and property transfers in order to avoid debt payment.

If this is an academic question there is no good uniform answer. If it involves a real situation, whether because a death has already occurred or one is doing some advance planning just in case, sitting down with an attorney to determine what rules may be applicable and what strategies may be viable is the only sensible way to go.
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:yeahthat:
Further, that attorney has to know the laws of the state where the parents are, not where the kids are, so you may have to find one where Mom and Pop live if that's not where you live (although an attorney where you are should be able to provide a good referral).
 
Much of this stuff got tightened up when people figired out how to 'downspend' their parents money in order to dump them on medicaid for nursing home care.
 
weilke said:
Much of this stuff got tightened up when people figired out how to 'downspend' their parents money in order to dump them on medicaid for nursing home care.
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The sad thing is, there is a large gap in the middle class where this becomes necessary because in order to provide high levels of supervision and care is outside of their financial means, so the only option to get them the care is to get them to levels that qualify.

I'm not even going to get into Aged Care as a racket.
 
An hour or so consult with a Trust and Estate Planning lawyer in your state would be a well spent couple of hundred dollars!

Any other advice from POA will probably cost you a heck a lot more than that if you follow it!
 
Shawn said:
An hour or so consult with a Trust and Estate Planning lawyer in your state would be a well spent couple of hundred dollars!

Any other advice from POA will probably cost you a heck a lot more than that if you follow it!
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Nah, lawyers will just pump you up or confuse you and suck you in.

Stay away from bankrupt mom and pop, and stay out of court. That's all you need to know.

If you're going to fight over something, make SURE there's enough there worth fighting for so that EVERYONE get's paid. Otherwise, when you go to court, you've already lost. Even if you win. :nono:
 
Mom and pop perhaps don't know about the law changes and think their debt will die with them.

Show them what you'll owe in your State and see if they change behavior once they know they're hurting the kids and grandkids, if you're unlucky enough to be in one of the 30 States and growing that have decided you're responsible for some of dear old mom and pop's bills.
 
denverpilot said:
I wouldn't call linking to it, "ripping from". Anyone who can read a URL in their browser can see where it came from. I know that's hard for some...
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The URL just links the table. It doesn't give you a pointer to the article as a whole.
 
A lot of variables to this equation: State of residence, how are things titled, the value of the estate, who gets what depending on which parent dies first, ...

The advice already given about consulting an attorney is the best. Depending on the proximity of the States the parents live in to the State(s) the rest of the family live in, it might be possible to find an attorney licensed in all of them.
 
txflyer said:
Who said that? OP was talking about starting the action ....

Have you read the thread?

Not. :nonod:
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I did read the thread. I was looking at the original question about the children's potential liability. I thought the sub-thread about seeking to have mom and dad incompetent (the only situation in which "staring the action" even makes sense) was already raised and tossed aside.

I probably also misread your comment as saying, "No, don't get professional advice about this." Sorry for my error.
 
Matthew said:
The advice already given about consulting an attorney is the best. Depending on the proximity of the States the parents live in to the State(s) the rest of the family live in, it might be possible to find an attorney licensed in all of them.
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Even if not in proximity. People move around. I'm licensed in three states in not terribly close proximity to each other. And lawyers, just like other businesses, and even like real people (evidence to the contrary notwithstanding) network across state lines.
 
denverpilot said:
Mom and pop perhaps don't know about the law changes and think their debt will die with them.

Show them what you'll owe in your State and see if they change behavior once they know they're hurting the kids and grandkids, if you're unlucky enough to be in one of the 30 States and growing that have decided you're responsible for some of dear old mom and pop's bills.
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Have we established filial responsibility exists here?:dunno:
 
midlifeflyer said:
I did read the thread. I was looking at the original question about the children's potential liability. I thought the sub-thread about seeking to have mom and dad incompetent (the only situation in which "staring the action" even makes sense) was already raised and tossed aside.

I probably also misread your comment as saying, "No, don't get professional advice about this." Sorry for my error.
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No sweat.

I'm probably more 'lawyerphobic' than most folks because we just ended a bitter guardianship and had the ward restored to get the mess out of court.

It's cheaper to handle a crazy person privately .... :redface:
 
txflyer said:
No sweat.

I'm probably more 'lawyerphobic' than most folks because we just ended a bitter guardianship and had the ward restored to get the mess out of court.

It's cheaper to handle a crazy person privately .... :redface:
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You bet, committal with a private shrink is like a divorce, expensive but worth it..:lol:
 
AuntPeggy said:
OK, sounds like the answer is maybe.

Suppose children get Mom and Pop declared not competent now and try to save home that will soon be auctioned for non-payment of taxes? And children try to get some handle on finances? Will children be liable for all debts once Mom and Dad are gone?
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Pay the back taxes so mom and pop don't get thrown out on the street... Unless someone else has already paid the tax lein... I guess that is who is foreclosing and auctioning the house....:dunno::dunno:
 
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Henning said:
Have we established filial responsibility exists here?:dunno:
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Mom and Pop and one of the children live in the same state with filial responsibility. One child lives in another state with filial responsibility. Balance live in state without filial responsibility.
 
AuntPeggy said:
Mom and Pop and one of the children live in the same state with filial responsibility. One child lives in another state with filial responsibility. Balance live in state without filial responsibility.
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Sounds like a bunch of deadbeat, poor kids with NO assets.........
 
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