Survivor liability

Sounds like a bunch of deadbeat, poor kids with NO assets.........


Assumes facts not in evidence.

But I will say this: If one of the kids decided to pay the taxes, it's essentially just a delaying action if there's significant debt. The house is going to the creditors eventually.

Bankruptcy might be the correct option for mom and pop. Stops their creditors and keeps the kids from throwing good money after bad.
 
Assumes facts not in evidence.

But I will say this: If one of the kids decided to pay the taxes, it's essentially just a delaying action if there's significant debt. The house is going to the creditors eventually.

Bankruptcy might be the correct option for mom and pop. Stops their creditors and keeps the kids from throwing good money after bad.

I have seen several properties go to auction here in Jackson... Old timers born and raised here,, Property free and clear, Could not afford the taxes and a third party came in and bought the taxes due bill..... After 3 years they hold the auction.. 99% of the time they just file for quit claim deed and take possession....

If the surviving kids cared one bit.. They would NOT let their parents get into that situation.. IMHO...
 
Aren't there some States that allow you to keep your house in certain bankrupty situations?
 
Even if not in proximity. People move around. I'm licensed in three states in not terribly close proximity to each other. And lawyers, just like other businesses, and even like real people (evidence to the contrary notwithstanding) network across state lines.

That's even better. I'm in KC and it surprises me how many attorneys are licensed only in KS or MO when they are right across the street from each other.
 
Aren't there some States that allow you to keep your house in certain bankrupty situations?

I think most states allow you to keep your primary residence in a bankruptcy. It is the main reason to seek bankruptcy protection.
 
I think most states allow you to keep your primary residence in a bankruptcy. It is the main reason to seek bankruptcy protection.


That's why I said bankruptcy is the best option barring a relative who wants to throw good money after bad.

I don't know what state her parents are in.:dunno:


Neither do I. That's why I said "if".

:)
 
I can see it now, filial liability will spur a growth in in the "Deatbed Bankruptcy" business. :lol:
 
OK, sounds like the best advice for a first step is to find a good bankruptcy lawyer. How do you find a good one from one or two thousand miles away?

Someone has to find out where all the debt is. Nobody really knows. And somehow, Pop has got to be kept away from the checkbook and Mom has got to be taught to handle the money to prevent this from happening again. Tall order. Good genes. They could live another 20 years or more.

PS. My own parents and siblings are all long dead.
 
OK, sounds like the best advice for a first step is to find a good bankruptcy lawyer. How do you find a good one from one or two thousand miles away?

Someone has to find out where all the debt is. Nobody really knows. And somehow, Pop has got to be kept away from the checkbook and Mom has got to be taught to handle the money to prevent this from happening again. Tall order. Good genes. They could live another 20 years or more.

PS. My own parents and siblings are all long dead.


Hmmmm..

Must be the "hubby's" side of the family...:rolleyes:
 
Not commenting on AP's case in particular but it seems like the whole filial responsibility idea could be nightmare if parents and children are estranged, especially if the parents are not particularly ethical.
 
Not commenting on AP's case in particular but it seems like the whole filial responsibility idea could be nightmare if parents and children are estranged, especially if the parents are not particularly ethical.

Agreed...

The potential for abuse is huge......
 
Not commenting on AP's case in particular but it seems like the whole filial responsibility idea could be nightmare if parents and children are estranged, especially if the parents are not particularly ethical.


A little goog fu says the parents must be declared indigent first before the filial laws apply in the States that have them.

Our original imposter is in the clear.:D OK doesn't have them.
 
No sweat.

I'm probably more 'lawyerphobic' than most folks because we just ended a bitter guardianship and had the ward restored to get the mess out of court.

It's cheaper to handle a crazy person privately .... :redface:
No problem. I empathize. Family legal issues seem to bring out the worst in people (lawyers and clients).
 
I think most states allow you to keep your primary residence in a bankruptcy. It is the main reason to seek bankruptcy protection.
Only if you pay the mortgage or other non-dischargeable lien.

The purpose of consumer bankruptcy protection is to temporarily stop the foreclosure and reorganize (Chapter 13) or discharge (Chapter 7) debts so that one can continue to pay the mortgage and keep the home.

In many cases, the first step taken by a lender when the mortgagor files bankruptcy is to file a motion to allow them to continue the foreclosure. Sometimes there will be an agreement reached; other times not. If it gets to the judge, different bankruptcy judges have different personal spins they apply, but the basic rules are pretty straightforward and come down to, if there is no realistic prospect of payment catching up and continuing, the foreclosure will continue.
 
Only if you pay the mortgage or other non-dischargeable lien.

The purpose of consumer bankruptcy protection is to temporarily stop the foreclosure and reorganize (Chapter 13) or discharge (Chapter 7) debts so that one can continue to pay the mortgage and keep the home.

Thats what I meant. You can't get rid of the mortgage itself. The mortgage alone is rarely the problem, it is the payments on the cars, the big-screen TV, and the credit cards and the medical bills that get them. By eliminating most of those, people get back on the feet just long enough to hold them over to their next bankruptcy filing ;) .
 
Thats what I meant. You can't get rid of the mortgage itself. The mortgage alone is rarely the problem, it is the payments on the cars, the big-screen TV, and the credit cards and the medical bills that get them. By eliminating most of those, people get back on the feet just long enough to hold them over to their next bankruptcy filing ;) .
Heck, you are even more cynical than I am and I represented banks in bankruptcy proceedings! :D
 
OK, sounds like the best advice for a first step is to find a good bankruptcy lawyer.
I obviously lost track of this thread because, for the life of me, I can't figure out why a bankruptcy lawyer would be the first step.

Oh well.
 
I obviously lost track of this thread because, for the life of me, I can't figure out why a bankruptcy lawyer would be the first step.



Oh well.


I think it went this way...

I brought up the opinion that the parents were essentially bankrupt and that bankruptcy was probably in their future, and the kids throwing good money after bad (paying the taxes on a house that would keep the parents in it through foreclosure) if they did that, so fiscally that wasn't a good idea.

AP went straight to "bankruptcy attorney".

Personally I'd have started at "gather all bills and make a spreadsheet of the assets and liabilities to figure out where and what it all is".

Mom and dad aren't going to do it, apparently. Sooner or later someone will have to do it. Might as well get on with it. Whether they like it or not.

And then later we got a trickle of further information that some of the siblings (AP perhaps) aren't local to mom and dad, so that makes it harder if the sibling that gives a crap isn't the closest one.

Really the tiny amount of information given is barely adequate to make suggestions about anything, let alone recommendations.

A fiscal pro, even just an accountant, with all the details in front of them, could make the assessment about what needs to be done with mom and pop's finances in about five minutes, once the spreadsheet is built, and build a budget. But so can any sibling with a spreadsheet. Heck, a ledger book and a pencil works too.

(Go old school with the green visor and the quill pen and play Eboneezer Scrooge if the role play makes it more entertaining. Haha. Might as well have fun with the fiscal disaster.)

The hard part is gathering up all of the bills and getting totals to put in the spreadsheet. And that's not THAT hard. Just tedious. And boring.

The other info that trickled out was that the family has "good genes" and both parents are expected to live a while.

Meaning, the original premise of APs post is sound, wondering if the siblings will be responsible for the massive debt, but there's significant work to straighten out mom and pop's finances anyway between then and now. The kid's responsibility to pay is down the road a bit. Right now the kids have to decide if they love mom and pop enough to fight them enough to get them to be responsible adults.

The question is: Will mom and pop allow the kids to help do that work.

Access to the checking account(s) online, if the bank has that feature and writing down where the dollars are going gets a list of creditors started, then seeing if there are unpaid bills lying around from others gets the vast majority of it. Wouldn't even have to be local if one can get online access to look at things and figure them all out.

I do hope this family doesn't play passive aggressive games like my wife's does. There's significant benefits being in a family that can just say, "you're being a dip****... Do you want my help or not?" and everyone will get over pretending to be "offended" and just fix the problem.

We've had to do that with two alcoholics in my family.

Essentially what mom and dad need is the exact same thing -- a financial intervention. "The whole family has decided that you're going to get your **** together before it costs the rest of us a whole lot of money."

Someone hanging tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt over your head, isn't the time to worry about politeness. It's a serious "WTF are you doing?!" moment.

Going to have to find out. No easy way out or around it. The parents, like teenagers, may not need to be legally made incompetent, but they may need to be monitored closely and given a fixed allowance. Heh. Life's a circle.
 
By the way AP. I feel for ya.

Karen's folks did some really dumb stuff, as her dad started suffering from dimentia, and her mom was the quintessential "oh he takes care of that stuff" wives and got caught not knowing what was really going on, until he had a stroke.

Fortunately one of Karen's siblings is an accountant who specializes in closing down bad banks. Digging through piles of paper to figure out how bad it is, is what he does for a living. So...

It made the family decision over who should help them figure out their mess, a whole lot easier.

My dad had to jump into my grandparent's stuff after my grandmother died, too. Grandpa hadn't ever done any of it and had no idea what was what. I know for a fact that scared my dad enough to straighten it all out in his own stuff so he wouldn't dump that same problem on me, which was nice of him.

But doing this fiscal intervention of older parents is a common story amongst a lot of people. Sorry if it's you (or husband) that have fire up the pencil and do it. PITA.
 
No problem. I empathize. Family legal issues seem to bring out the worst in people (lawyers and clients).

Truer words were never spoken! I am amazed at the way siblings treat each other when one or both parents pass away.:mad2: Luckily both my parents are in good health and my sister and I get along pretty well, BUT things change quickly when money gets involved! I've seen friends and employees go through hell to try to keep their siblings from stealing everything! One guy's dad died and he and his wife had made out wills at the same time, basically giving their assets to the surviving spouse with some stuff to their respective kids. Well this guy's father told him where his UPDATED will was hidden before he died, which basically screwed his wife out of here own house! :eek: The kids repo'd the stepmom's car because it was in dad's name, they made her buy her house back, that she owned free and clear when they married! It was a mess, and I lost all respect for my employee and his evil sisters for treating their stepmom like that! :nono:
 
I think it went this way...

I brought up the opinion that the parents were essentially bankrupt and that bankruptcy was probably in their future, and the kids throwing good money after bad (paying the taxes on a house that would keep the parents in it through foreclosure) if they did that, so fiscally that wasn't a good idea.

AP went straight to "bankruptcy attorney".

.
Well I certainly can't compete with the quality :mad2: of the legal advice AP has received in this thread from pilots.

So, just to be on the safe side:

Disclaimer: My failure to comment on someone else's post does not mean I agree with the contents. Comments I make are for informational purposes only, are general in nature, may not reflect current law in any particular state, cannot be relied on to apply to any specific set of facts or circumstances, and cannot be used as specific legal advice in any way, shape or form. The only advice I give is to consult a qualified, licensed professional.
 
Well I certainly can't compete with the quality :mad2: of the legal advice AP has received in this thread from pilots.



So, just to be on the safe side:



Disclaimer: My failure to comment on someone else's post does not mean I agree with the contents. Comments I make are for informational purposes only, are general in nature, may not reflect current law in any particular state, cannot be relied on to apply to any specific set of facts or circumstances, and cannot be used as specific legal advice in any way, shape or form. The only advice I give is to consult a qualified, licensed professional.


Spoken like an attorney. LOL! (Nothing wrong with that.)

Realize that the initial question wasn't possible to answer without a location, and it all goes downhill from there.

There's a reason you usually want to ask lawyers about legal questions and not aviation forums. ;)

The first thing my attorney would have said would have been, "Why do you ask?" (Spike also asked me that question once. Heh.)

Once the full story is on the table, action items can be written down and either done or not done. The action items for "two adults I know are overspending and going broke" are a different set of items than "mom and dad died and left big debts".

And there are a bunch of "choose your own adventure" options in the in between states on that timeline. Fill in the blank, then turn to page 7 to see what happens next! ;)

Nobody here but AP has the full story (we don't even know if this is her family or she's attempting to help someone else) and the question has been answered the best it can given the question.

Pretty common really. Ask the wrong question, get the wrong answer. (To wit: That's why I always ask any attorney representing me, if I'm even asking the right questions in the first place.)

There's no lack of professionals who've helped folks through tough times financially that are a whole lot worse than, "mom and pop won't stop spending". They're the right people to talk to.

No big deal. Nobody is ever going to get good advice on legal matters from a chat board. Even if they do, they're going to have to pay an attorney to make sure...
 
Spoken like an attorney. LOL! (Nothing wrong with that.)
:D

Thinking back, this is maybe only the 3rd or 4th time I've actually thrown in a stated "disclaimer" in the 20 years or so I've participated in online forums and newsgroups. Gives you an idea of my concerns about the thread.
 
:D



Thinking back, this is maybe only the 3rd or 4th time I've actually thrown in a stated "disclaimer" in the 20 years or so I've participated in online forums and newsgroups. Gives you an idea of my concerns about the thread.


The thread or the question posed? ;)
 
The thread. It's quite normal for one to pose questions to people whose opinions they trust. Whether or not they are in a position to really help.


True. The old adage that the advice is worth exactly what they paid for it, still tends to apply, too.
 
I think it went this way...

I brought up the opinion that the parents were essentially bankrupt and that bankruptcy was probably in their future, and the kids throwing good money after bad (paying the taxes on a house that would keep the parents in it through foreclosure) if they did that, so fiscally that wasn't a good idea.

AP went straight to "bankruptcy attorney".

Personally I'd have started at "gather all bills and make a spreadsheet of the assets and liabilities to figure out where and what it all is".

Mom and dad aren't going to do it, apparently. Sooner or later someone will have to do it. Might as well get on with it. Whether they like it or not.

And then later we got a trickle of further information that some of the siblings (AP perhaps) aren't local to mom and dad, so that makes it harder if the sibling that gives a crap isn't the closest one.

Really the tiny amount of information given is barely adequate to make suggestions about anything, let alone recommendations.

A fiscal pro, even just an accountant, with all the details in front of them, could make the assessment about what needs to be done with mom and pop's finances in about five minutes, once the spreadsheet is built, and build a budget. But so can any sibling with a spreadsheet. Heck, a ledger book and a pencil works too.

(Go old school with the green visor and the quill pen and play Eboneezer Scrooge if the role play makes it more entertaining. Haha. Might as well have fun with the fiscal disaster.)

The hard part is gathering up all of the bills and getting totals to put in the spreadsheet. And that's not THAT hard. Just tedious. And boring.

The other info that trickled out was that the family has "good genes" and both parents are expected to live a while.

Meaning, the original premise of APs post is sound, wondering if the siblings will be responsible for the massive debt, but there's significant work to straighten out mom and pop's finances anyway between then and now. The kid's responsibility to pay is down the road a bit. Right now the kids have to decide if they love mom and pop enough to fight them enough to get them to be responsible adults.

The question is: Will mom and pop allow the kids to help do that work.

Access to the checking account(s) online, if the bank has that feature and writing down where the dollars are going gets a list of creditors started, then seeing if there are unpaid bills lying around from others gets the vast majority of it. Wouldn't even have to be local if one can get online access to look at things and figure them all out.

I do hope this family doesn't play passive aggressive games like my wife's does. There's significant benefits being in a family that can just say, "you're being a dip****... Do you want my help or not?" and everyone will get over pretending to be "offended" and just fix the problem.

We've had to do that with two alcoholics in my family.

Essentially what mom and dad need is the exact same thing -- a financial intervention. "The whole family has decided that you're going to get your **** together before it costs the rest of us a whole lot of money."

Someone hanging tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt over your head, isn't the time to worry about politeness. It's a serious "WTF are you doing?!" moment.

Going to have to find out. No easy way out or around it. The parents, like teenagers, may not need to be legally made incompetent, but they may need to be monitored closely and given a fixed allowance. Heh. Life's a circle.

Thanks. This is a good summary. It helped me get my thinking straight -- and priorities. Also, I'm learning more each day about the truth of the problems. Looks like they've already lost the house, but are renting it now. The property they are losing is a vacation cottage. Siblings might pay the taxes so they can sell it. Pop has done a great job of hiding financials over many years. Turns out everything is done in cash, not bank. (He doesn't trust the government or banks.) The siblings are not playing passive-aggressive games. One is going over every possible day to get Pop to get it together. Another will fly in next month to add support and help. They will do the groundwork to get me accepted by Mom and Pop as part of the solution. Then, the following month, I'll fly in and do the green shades thing. As a former programmer for Chase Manhattan Bank, I'm the "go-to expert":rolleyes2: in things financial. Anyway, siblings do not want to, cannot afford to, pay off Pop's debts. Still afraid of the consequences of intervention to their own financial welfare.
 
Thanks. This is a good summary. It helped me get my thinking straight -- and priorities. Also, I'm learning more each day about the truth of the problems. Looks like they've already lost the house, but are renting it now. The property they are losing is a vacation cottage. Siblings might pay the taxes so they can sell it. Pop has done a great job of hiding financials over many years. Turns out everything is done in cash, not bank. (He doesn't trust the government or banks.) The siblings are not playing passive-aggressive games. One is going over every possible day to get Pop to get it together. Another will fly in next month to add support and help. They will do the groundwork to get me accepted by Mom and Pop as part of the solution. Then, the following month, I'll fly in and do the green shades thing. As a former programmer for Chase Manhattan Bank, I'm the "go-to expert":rolleyes2: in things financial. Anyway, siblings do not want to, cannot afford to, pay off Pop's debts. Still afraid of the consequences of intervention to their own financial welfare.


I wouldn't let them worry about it much. No real liability on them for the parent's debt (yet). Or at least tell them it'll be nothing but worse later on if not taken care of now.

I'm sure Pop is proud he provided for all those years, and will be annoyed at needing help, but in the end everyone feels better with a plan vs no plan.

Sounds like you'll get it all sorted.
 
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