SureFly Saga - IT WORKS!!

pburger

pburger

Pre-takeoff checklist
Joined
May 26, 2007
Messages
489
Location
Houston, TX
Display Name
Paul B.
Home Airfield
TS07
[EDIT - UPDATE (TLDR): After some intake leaks were fixed during my annual the plane didn't want to start. This was diagnosed as a bad impulse coupling. Instead of a standard mag, we put a SureFly ignition module on. The plane still didn't start. The SureFly was removed and a new mag was put on. The plane still didn't want to start. After further investigation, the plane was found to be idling high. After the idle was adjusted, the plane started normally with the mag. So the SureFly was put back on the plane, and it works great! The starting problem appears to have been the high idle all along.]

My 1975 Piper Arrow was having serious starting issues after several months of downtime. Troubleshooting pointed to the impulse coupling. I decided to go with a SureFly electronic ignition module in place of the left mag. My A&P is a certified installer/dealer for them. After the Surefly was installed, the starting issues remained. He worked with SureFly tech support. The A&P had a fresh overhauled mag available (temporarily), and when that was put on, the plane started normally. So, he sent the SureFly back to the manufacturer. They checked it out on the bench and returned it saying nothing was wrong with it. He reinstalled it and was able to get the plane started cold but not hot. I came to get the plane and was unable to start it at all. So, the SureFly is going back and he's going to put on an overhauled mag. I'm disappointed because I was excited about the idea of the electronic ignition, but I don't see any other path forward other than putting on the overhauled mag. My big fear is that the starting issues remain after the mag replacement -- hopefully not. We'll see soon enough.

My engineer mind can't let go of this. I see three possibilities as to why the plane won't start with the Surefly:
  1. Something is wrong with the plane.
  2. Something is wrong with the Surefly.
  3. Something is wrong with the installation.
None of these possibilities seem very likely based on the facts:
  1. PLANE -- The plane was very hard to start, but it ran normally when I got it started with the original mag (all plugs firing, good mag check). The only problem was starting. This would imply that the plugs and harnesses are okay, and that the problem was probably the impulse coupling. Furthermore, when the A&P temporarily installed a freshly overhauled mag, the plane started normally. Based on these observations, I would like to think that the plane is okay.
  2. SUREFLY -- Surefly is a STC'd part subject to FAA-approved quality control. The likelihood of a defective product being shipped should be low. The module was sent back to the manufacturer who checked it out and said it was okay. At this point, it is reasonable to assume that the Surefly is not defective.
  3. INSTALLATION -- This wasn't my A&P's first installation of a Surefly. It's a fairly simple installation that is well-documented in their installation manuals. He spoke with tech support when the plane wouldn't start during the first installation. I can't imagine that the installation was done incorrectly.
If I had to lean one way, I would lean toward some other issue with the plane (ignition switch, P-lead issue, plugs, harness, etc.), but these were all checked initially, and troubleshooting with a fresh mag seemed to eliminate all of that, anyway.

It's a mystery, and I don't like unknowns when it comes to airplane maintenance.

Hopefully the overhauled mag will do the trick. I'll know by the end of next week. I just hope it lasts longer than the 200 hours I have on the current mag.
 
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So many have thought the SureFly e-mag is the way to go and then have lots of issues with them. I haven’t found anyone personally who has had a positive experience that I’m aware of.

To me, they just don’t have the longevity and durability of a conventional magneto. They need further refinement.

Your issue is likely one of a few things -

1. Weak impulse coupling
2. Ignition switch fault
3. Fuel delivery issues
 
Fuel, air, spark (unless the engine is mechanically unsound).

If you guys think you’ve ruled out spark by your mag works, time to look at the fuel system now.
 
pburger said:
It's a mystery, and I don't like unknowns when it comes to airplane maintenance.
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Was any other troubleshooting performed on the electrical system due to the SureFly didn't start? Based on what you wrote seems only the mags were swapped? And given one mag does not require electrical power to run and the other one does, you could easily have two separate reasons: bad impulse couple on original mag since the 2nd one worked and maybe a ground issue or voltage drop behind why the Surefly did start since it passed the bench check?
 
pburger said:
My engineer mind can't let go of this.
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As a kid, I fell in love with computers because if I got the wrong answer, it meant I didn't RTFM or didn't understand something. An explanation existed, but it was up to me to find it.

Planes have been scratching the same itch.

pburger said:
INSTALLATION -- This wasn't my A&P's first installation of a Surefly. It's a fairly simple installation that is well-documented in their installation manuals. He spoke with tech support when the plane wouldn't start during the first installation.
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None of these implies that your A&P knows how to install a Surefly correctly.
 
I have 4 flight school aircraft running the surefly system and they have been absolutely rock solid! Zero issues and nothing but proven reliability for me. My highest time unit is around 2100 hours right now.

Once we tried one for about 6 months, I outfitted the rest!
 
Skymac said:
I have 4 flight school aircraft running the surefly system and they have been absolutely rock solid! Zero issues and nothing but proven reliability for me. My highest time unit is around 2100 hours right now.

Once we tried one for about 6 months, I outfitted the rest!
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Any maintenance on the 2100 hour surefly?
 
My A&P is going to give it one more close look on Monday before pulling the trigger on the mag overhaul.
 
Did you ring out the p-leads to ensure the left from switch does in fact go to the left and right to the right? Typically in this setup there is a bridging plate installed to the right p-lead terminal at the switch which grounds out the right mag during starting (since it's not an impulse mag). If the p-leads got swapped at some point, it might be grounding out the left mag (once your impulse, now your surefly mag) and trying to start on the right, non-impulse magneto. You mention various troubleshooting, but not that explicitly, so worth a check. Doesn't really explain why it started normally with the temp mag, but perhaps he didn't install the p-lead for his test (odd, but I've seen stranger things done).
 
GeorgeC said:
None of these implies that your A&P knows how to install a Surefly correctly.
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I had an issue recently that supports your point. My home shop is authorized to work on avionics, is a dealer for all sorts of brands, they work on all sorts of airplanes, are constantly busy, give you confidence that they can handle anything. I was shocked at all the stuff they got wrong after they reinstalled the engine on my Turbo Lance. Ditto with other systems they had installation experience with or were dealers for.
 
I’ve had a SureFly on the right non-impulsed mag. No issues what so ever. A lot of Grumman planes flying with the SureFly on the left for starting. Are you sure you bought the correct SureFly for the left impulsed mag replacement. The left and right Surefly is not interchangeable.
 
Ryan Klems said:
Did you ring out the p-leads to ensure the left from switch does in fact go to the left and right to the right? Typically in this setup there is a bridging plate installed to the right p-lead terminal at the switch which grounds out the right mag during starting (since it's not an impulse mag). If the p-leads got swapped at some point, it might be grounding out the left mag (once your impulse, now your surefly mag) and trying to start on the right, non-impulse magneto. You mention various troubleshooting, but not that explicitly, so worth a check. Doesn't really explain why it started normally with the temp mag, but perhaps he didn't install the p-lead for his test (odd, but I've seen stranger things done).
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The p-leads were rung out when the starting problem first arose. Since the right mag was not removed or replaced, and nothing should have been touched at the ignition switch, there should be 0 chance that the p-leads got swapped. That doesn't mean there's not an intermittent ground somewhere on the left P-lead, or that there is a problem with the ignition switch, but I doubt it.

I wasn't there for the start on the temp mag, so I don't have first-hand knowledge of how it performed.
 
4RNB said:
This strikes me as premature and poor taste in complaining about surefly.

Ask, question, query, discuss, try to learn, sure that is fine.

I’d want another set of eyes on this.
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Quote me one word where I complained about SureFly. You can't, because I didn't.

I titled my post "Unsure of SureFly" not "SureFly is crap". I thought I was clear that I didn't think the SureFly was the problem, and I said why. I'm not sure of what the problem is, that was the point. I shared my concerns with the A&P, and he shares my concerns. He plans to take another look on Monday.
 
Ed Haywood said:
Alternatively:

Plane won’t start.
We changed a part.
Plane will start.

Hmmm, maybe it was the part?
Click to expand...
Unless something ancillary was inadvertently corrected during the change procedure (BTDT).
 
RyanB said:
I haven’t found anyone personally who has had a positive experience that I’m aware of.
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There’s a few qualifiers in your statement, eh?

Installed SureFly early on… ~6 years ago, sent it back for inspection after a prop strike, they upgraded me to the latest revision level.

My instances of high-altitude LOP misfire have entirely gone away. What a delight!

Also… single mag op on a magneto used to slow me down ~4 knots. Single mag on the SureFly is ~1 knot slower. Good deal!

Paul
 
I’m on my 2nd plane that surefly has been installed on. The folks that put them in never claimed to be certified. But I see one of them was.
No problems that I know of.

LYCOMING EIS

www.lycoming.com www.lycoming.com
www.surefly.net

INSTALLATION | SureFly

A SureFly Ignition Module (SIM) installation is split into 2 parts. Follow instructions for both Engine and Airframe. Start with Engine installation and continue with Airframe.
www.surefly.net www.surefly.net
 
https://community.cardinalflyers.com/u/Garrie.Moore

On a recent trip from KDTS Destin Florida back home to KGTU Georgetown Texas in my 73RG my better half and I stopped in at 5R8 DeQuincy Louisiana on a Saturday afternoon for a quick fuel/bathroom stop and could not restart my non D IO-360. At first I thought I was having hot start problems, so I tried every hot start procedures under the sun. Of course this drew the attention of several other pilots on the field, even with their hot start methods it would not start. A local AP/IA who was on the field was called upon and after much trouble shooting it was determined that the left mag was not firing. The left mag is a recently installed new Surefly SIM4P. It was installed back in November 2024 during annual as the Slick 4372 was nearing it’s 500 hour inspection. Being over 300 miles from home on a late Saturday afternoon I was wondering what was I to do now. A couple of pilots based on the field called the airport manager and the local crew car was offered up for us to use. So we loaded up our luggage to drive home to Georgetown Texas where I could retrieve my Slick Mag and return on Sunday. After 5 hours of driving a few hours of sleep and another 5 hours of driving back the Slick mag was installed on the IO-360 and she roared to life. I called Surefly on Monday morning and described the symptoms of the no start and the trouble shooting we had done. The fuse had been checked, there was 12.6 volts at the Surefly coming from the battery. We attempted to start with the P lead disconnected to eliminate the ignition switch. The Surefly was removed and reinstalled per instructions and still no start. The Surefly technician had asked about testing the ground strap and also how many times the led had flashed when the P lead was disconnected. I was not the one that removed the P led, the AP/IA had and he did not mention seeing any flashing led. It was a very bright day on the ramp and even when we reinstalled the Surefly during our trouble shooting the led was hard to see. As far as the ground strap the engine was grounded well enough for the starter to work as the starter is grounded to the airframe via the same ground strap. I mailed the Surefly off for a bench test. I received a call from Surefly yesterday informing me that the Mag failed the bench test and would be remanufactured under warranty and shipped back at no cost. The technician could not pinpoint the failure and was going to send it off to R and D for evaluation. I can not thank the local pilots and the airport manager that helped me and my wife get home enough. I highly recommend 5R8 as a quick (not so in my case) fuel stop. They have a nice clean little Pilot lounge well stocked with snacks and great price on the fuel. The crew car is a nice clean newer model Chevy Traverse lower mileage vehicle ( well except for the 600 miles I put on it). I am expecting the remanufactured Surefly in next week. Deciding if I should reinstall it and give it another chance. The engine was running so smooth and started so well with it, until it didn’t. So if I do decide to reinstall the Surefly. The Slick will be traveling with me in the baggage compartment.
Edit:

Surefly was received and reinstalled so far so good after several test flights
 
RyanB said:
So many have thought the SureFly e-mag is the way to go and then have lots of issues with them. I haven’t found anyone personally who has had a positive experience that I’m aware of.

To me, they just don’t have the longevity and durability of a conventional magneto. They need further refinement.

Your issue is likely one of a few things -

1. Weak impulse coupling
2. Ignition switch fault
3. Fuel delivery issues
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well now you do, surefly on my mooney has been working perfectly for 3 or 4 years, no issues. TBH, out of the 5 or 6 people i actually know personally that have surefly's, none have issues.
 
My PA-28-181 has a SureFly e-mag on the left side . Close to 400 hrs. No problems at all. One of the best improvements is how easy it starts.
 
Assuming Lycoming IO-360 engine could this be the infamous morning sickness? Have you performed a wobble test?

Service Bulletin No. 388 C

Supersedes Service Bulletin No. 388B and Supplement No. 1 to Service Bulletin No. 388B November 22, 2004 TIME OF COMPLIANCE Helicopter Engines – 300 hour intervals or earlier if valve sticking suspected. All Other Engines – 400 hour intervals or earlier if valve sticking suspected until exhaust...
www.lycoming.com www.lycoming.com
 
FPK1 said:
Assuming Lycoming IO-360 engine could this be the infamous morning sickness? Have you performed a wobble test?

Service Bulletin No. 388 C

Supersedes Service Bulletin No. 388B and Supplement No. 1 to Service Bulletin No. 388B November 22, 2004 TIME OF COMPLIANCE Helicopter Engines – 300 hour intervals or earlier if valve sticking suspected. All Other Engines – 400 hour intervals or earlier if valve sticking suspected until exhaust...
www.lycoming.com www.lycoming.com
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I don't think so. When it does start it runs normally, not rough like a stuck valve.
 
pburger said:
I don't think so. When it does start it runs normally, not rough like a stuck valve.
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My IO-390 had morning sickness and once it finally started it ran well. There was a time or two where EGT 2 dropped off briefly and came back almost unnoticeable, so quickly I never saw a change in CHT 2. This happened over a 50 hour period. I'd get it checked, could be a sticky valve! Not stuck yet...
 
4RNB said:
Any update?
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UPDATE:
A&P decided to try a few things prior to giving up on the Surefly. Intake was smoked, tight - no leaks. Injectors were flowed - no issues. Still didn't want to start with the Surefly or at least not easily. He put a fresh conventional mag on and said it was working normally (I wasn't there to witness. Based on my later experience, I think there are different ideas of what is normal.). Then the Surefly folks wanted him to try to power the Surefly from an external source to eliminate any power issues from the plane. He did that with no improvement. At that point the conventional mag went back on and we're going down the road. One of his guys started the plane, he started the plane, they started the plane 4 more times just to make sure. After hearing this I was disappointed about the SureFly, but optimistic that I'd have my plane back operating as good as ever.

I went to get the plane after work on Tuesday. It didn't want to start but finally did after about 10 seconds of cranking. I let it warm up and all temps looked good, mag check was good. Flew it the 8 mins to my house. Shut down and tried to restart. Could not get it started! I pushed it in the hangar and that was that for the evening.

Last night I decided to give it another try. Apparently time doesn't heal all wounds. It did not start easily. First crank went 8-10 seconds and I stopped. I don't remember if I gave it any more prime. I cranked again and it fired after 8-10 seconds. This long cranking isn't normal for this plane. I warmed it up and did a mag check, all good. I ran it up and leaned it a bit to bring the EGTs up. Then I shut it down and tried to restart without priming. No joy. I then primed it, and it started after a long crank period. I tried the same thing again with the same results. I let it warm up again, did another mag check, then brought it to idle. It was idling at 910 rpm. That's TOO HIGH. (Piper says 550-600, which is where it used to idle). I then moved the mixture lever from full rich to ICO and got no rpm increase before it tried to shut down. There should be a 50 rpm increase. That indicates that the idle mixture is set too lean. I ran it up again to clear the plugs, did a mag check, and tried to idle again. This time it idled at 860 - still way too high. Still no rpm increase when moving the mixture control to ICO.

The idle speed and idle mixture were set during the recent annual, but I can only assume they were not set correctly. I'm not sure if this could be the cause of my starting issues. If the idle stop is set to give 900 rpm, then when I was cracking the throttle 1/2" for starting, I was actually opening it more than I thought I was. I suppose I could try starting with the throttle lever fully back. I don't think the lean idle mixture will affect starting because at ICO there should be no fuel flow, right? In any event, I need to get the idle rpm and mixture set correctly because it should be right, and to eliminate these settings as possible reasons for the difficult starting.

And so it goes...
 
Your mechanic is clearly missing something not related to the Surefly.

A new mechanic, with a full description of the original hard start problem, but nothing about the Surefly adventure, will be able to research and find the underlying problem (Common to Surefly and Magneto). The Surefly shop has missed that real problem, for whatever reason.

Our flying club had such a series of work done, quite different base problem, but until we had an entirely new mechanic and no prejudice from what the previous mechanic "claimed" to have done, we had no success.

The problem stemmed from a procedure improperly done by the first mechanic. Good luck on this process, and remember, do not take a bad attitude with you to the new mechanic.
 
I'm not giving up on my mechanic. But I can't help but wonder if my original mag wasn't just fine, after all. I was able to start the plane with it, just not easily. I have a new mag now and I can start the plane, just not easily.

I've got a few more things to look at (idle rpm and mixture, and a careful check of harnesses, p-leads, etc.). The plane is back in my hangar so I can put my own eyes on everything this weekend. I'm not an A&P, so there are limits to what I can do, but I can at least take a good hard look at things.
 
Not sure on airplane engines, but another total “guess” at this point would be a vacuum leak through the throttle shaft? Spraying stuff at the shaft while running might rule that out.
 
Never tried starting something with 1/2" throttle opening:oops:!

Depending on the setup of the throttle cable, the carb throttle plate opening could be so great that there is little cranking intake manifold pressure drop on cranking to flash any prime fuel. Liquid fuel won't ignite. It has to be a vapor, which won't happen until the manifold pressure drops during cranking - especially with 100LL low vapor pressure fuel.

You apparently also have an unusually high idle speed setting, which means you can't get that throttle plate closed no matter what you do while cranking.

Not an A&P but a MechEngr. My technique over 50 years is be sure the throttle linkage is set for finest resolution when closed. Crank with near minimum throttle, preferably nearly closed. And no throttle pumping.

Later - Thinking this was a carbureted 180 hp O-360. Now realize its the injected 200 hp IO-360, a totally different animal. Many thoughts above don't apply.
 
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pburger said:
I can't imagine that the installation was done incorrectly.
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I can. After having corrected many installations of various sorts (never a Surefly) I know that there are too many ways to get stuff wrong.
pburger said:
I'm not giving up on my mechanic. But I can't help but wonder if my original mag wasn't just fine, after all. I was able to start the plane with it, just not easily. I have a new mag now and I can start the plane, just not easily.
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You are priming using the boost pump, right? And you have the mixture set full rich while doing so, then pulling to ICO for start? If the mix is set at ICO, priming does nothing.
 
My guess is this a PEBSAC problem. Problem Exists Between Seat And Controls. Fuel Injected engines can be finicky to hot start.

You can adjust the idle speed and mixture yourself. But that should not be the issue. Most likely it is your priming and starting procedure.

Next time you try a hot start, open the throttle to approx 1/4 full. If it doesn't fire in 5 seconds, prime for about 2 seconds and try again. Mixture cut off until it fires.
 
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