SureFly Saga - IT WORKS!!

[brcase]

Your mechanic is clearly missing something not related to the Surefly.

A new mechanic, with a full description of the original hard start problem, but nothing about the Surefly adventure, will be able to research and find the underlying problem (Common to Surefly and Magneto). The Surefly shop has missed that real problem, for whatever reason.

Our flying club had such a series of work done, quite different base problem, but until we had an entirely new mechanic and no prejudice from what the previous mechanic "claimed" to have done, we had no success.

The problem stemmed from a procedure improperly done by the first mechanic. Good luck on this process, and remember, do not take a bad attitude with you to the new mechanic.

This is pretty much my everyday job description... They call me we when they have "done everything"

My solutions usually are...
Do that thing that everyone said they already did.
The part you replaced was bad which is why you still have the problem.
Or read the service manual to them, that no one bothered to read.

 

[Dan Thomas]

My guess is this a PEBSAC problem. Problem Exists Between Seat And Controls. Fuel Injected engines can be finicky to hot start.

You can adjust the idle speed and mixture yourself. But that should not be the issue. Most likely it is your priming and starting procedure.

Next time you try a hot start, open the throttle to approx 1/4 full. If it doesn't fire in 5 seconds, prime for about 2 seconds and try again. Mixture cut off until it fires.

Oh, and not only mix rich for priming. The throttle might need to be well open too. The fuel flow is controlled by both of these. With throttle mostly closed, the fuel flow is so low that the injectors just dribble instead of atomizing the fuel.

 

[Ed Haywood]

Oh, and not only mix rich for priming. The throttle might need to be well open too. The fuel flow is controlled by both of these. With throttle mostly closed, the fuel flow is so low that the injectors just dribble instead of atomizing the fuel.

Yes, that is correct. I have same engine. Priming procedure is mixture cutoff and throttle closed, run boost pump til FP indicates green, mixture rich and full throttle, count seconds of prime, then close both. Then pump off, throttle 1/4 open, mags hot, run starter, mixture rich when it fires and quickly adjust throttle to fast idle.

Lycoming book procedure for hot start is no prime, mixture cutoff, and throttle 1/4 open.

I used to have problems cold starting because I was afraid of over priming the engine. Then I read the manual and realized I was under priming it. I use 5 seconds of prime on cold start. If first attempt to start hot fails to fire, 1-2 seconds of prime is necessary.

 

[pburger]

Yes, that is correct. I have same engine. Priming procedure is mixture cutoff and throttle closed, run boost pump til FP indicates green, mixture rich and full throttle, count seconds of prime, then close both. Then pump off, throttle 1/4 open, mags hot, run starter, mixture rich when it fires and quickly adjust throttle to fast idle.

Lycoming book procedure for hot start is no prime, mixture cutoff, and throttle 1/4 open.

I used to have problems cold starting because I was afraid of over priming the engine. Then I read the manual and realized I was under priming it. I use 5 seconds of prime on cold start. If first attempt to start hot fails to fire, 1-2 seconds of prime is necessary.

**** fire— I’ve owned this plane for 30 years and have known how to start it (hot and cold) for 25 years. This is a NEW problem. Hopefully I’ll have some answers soon.

 

[4RNB]

My wife and I have a running joke when looking for something around the house. We know the thing is there, where it ought to be, but sometimes just can't find it. So we ask for another set of eyes. Often the items is exactly where it is supposed to be but somehow we have been blinded to the location. We don't shame each other over it, just ask for help, then share a good laugh. Without asking for help, the object stays hidden, cloaked from our own eyes.

 

[Eric Pauley]

I haven’t found anyone personally who has had a positive experience that I’m aware of.

Another early positive experience from me. Engine starts in one turn every time, runs smoothly at virtually any mixture setting, has enabled a roughly 1gph reduction in cruise fuel flow, and the increased CHT even with timing advance were perfectly tolerable for my IO-360. Given the cost of IRANing my other mag at the same time I anticipate quickly recouping the install cost on fuel and maintenance, with the capability bonus of fuel weight savings when planning cross-country flights.

 

[pburger]

UPDATE - PROGRESS!!

TLDR - two intake gaskets were replaced during the annual. The idle must've been adjusted in the past to compensate for these intake leaks. Once the leaks were corrected, the idle was too high and this caused the hard starting issues. After a lot of troubleshooting and mag swapping the idle has been adjusted and plane is behaving NORMALLY - next stop, try Surefly one more time.

Additional background:
The plane was starting, idling and running fine at the end of last year before the annual. No serious squawks. The plane sat idle for 5 months due to multiple issues with former A&P who was retiring (that's a long story with some sadness). The new A&P gave the plane a thorough going-over during the annual in May and found intake leaks on two cylinders and replaced those gaskets. When the plane was returned to me, it was very hard to start (using the POH procedure - prime and then crack throttle 1/2" and crank). I've had this plane for 30 years and I know what is normal and what is not. The diagnosis was a bad impulse coupling. I questioned that because the mag was 5 years old with only 200 hours on it. But, the plane had sat idle for 5 months Could sitting idle for 5 months cause the impulse coupling to go bad? Maybe. Overhauled mags are now $1500 each ($750 five years ago), so I asked about "upgrading" to a SureFly and the saga began...

New test
My last update noted that the plane was idling high (~900rpm), and that the idle mixture appeared to be too lean (no rpm rise when moving mixture control to ICO). I said in my last update that the idle rpm and idle mixture were set during the annual. I was WRONG - they were not touched. At this point my theory was that if the idle setting is at 900 rpm, then when I crack the throttle 1/2" to start I'm giving too much air which results in the difficult starting. To test that theory, I pulled the throttle lever all the way back and tried to start. 2 blades! bam-a-lam! What a difference! This isn't the solution, because this is not the normal starting procedure, but it is a data point.

Idle Adjustment
I discussed the situation with my A&P and the idle was adjusted in small increments. It took 10 total adjustments, but in the end we ended up with the plane idling around 600 rpm with a 50 rpm increase when pulling the mixture control from rich to ICO. And the plane starts NORMALLY, with the throttle cracked 1/2".

Conclusion
My conclusion is that the induction leaks were present for some time, and my prior A&P didn't find them and must've adjusted the idle rpm and idle mixture to compensate for those leaks (i.e. - it's idling low, let's turn the screw...) I don't know that, but it seems to fit the theory. So, when the intake leaks were fixed, the idle became way too high, and the plane became very hard to start. I also bet my original mag was fine. I was able to get the plane started with that mag right after the annual - but with a great degree of difficulty. If I had just pulled the throttle lever back to idle and then cranked I bet it would've fired right off. So, now that the plane is back to normal, we're going to give the SureFly one more shot. I'm optimistic.

 

[4RNB]

UPDATE - PROGRESS!!

TLDR - two intake gaskets were replaced during the annual. The idle must've been adjusted in the past to compensate for these intake leaks. Once the leaks were corrected, the idle was too high and this caused the hard starting issues. After a lot of troubleshooting and mag swapping the idle has been adjusted and plane is behaving NORMALLY - next stop, try Surefly one more time.

Additional background:
The plane was starting, idling and running fine at the end of last year before the annual. No serious squawks. The plane sat idle for 5 months due to multiple issues with former A&P who was retiring (that's a long story with some sadness). The new A&P gave the plane a thorough going-over during the annual in May and found intake leaks on two cylinders and replaced those gaskets. When the plane was returned to me, it was very hard to start (using the POH procedure - prime and then crack throttle 1/2" and crank). I've had this plane for 30 years and I know what is normal and what is not. The diagnosis was a bad impulse coupling. I questioned that because the mag was 5 years old with only 200 hours on it. But, the plane had sat idle for 5 months Could sitting idle for 5 months cause the impulse coupling to go bad? Maybe. Overhauled mags are now $1500 each ($750 five years ago), so I asked about "upgrading" to a SureFly and the saga began...

New test
My last update noted that the plane was idling high (~900rpm), and that the idle mixture appeared to be too lean (no rpm rise when moving mixture control to ICO). I said in my last update that the idle rpm and idle mixture were set during the annual. I was WRONG - they were not touched. At this point my theory was that if the idle setting is at 900 rpm, then when I crack the throttle 1/2" to start I'm giving too much air which results in the difficult starting. To test that theory, I pulled the throttle lever all the way back and tried to start. 2 blades! bam-a-lam! What a difference! This isn't the solution, because this is not the normal starting procedure, but it is a data point.

Idle Adjustment
I discussed the situation with my A&P and the idle was adjusted in small increments. It took 10 total adjustments, but in the end we ended up with the plane idling around 600 rpm with a 50 rpm increase when pulling the mixture control from rich to ICO. And the plane starts NORMALLY, with the throttle cracked 1/2".

Conclusion
My conclusion is that the induction leaks were present for some time, and my prior A&P didn't find them and must've adjusted the idle rpm and idle mixture to compensate for those leaks (i.e. - it's idling low, let's turn the screw...) I don't know that, but it seems to fit the theory. So, when the intake leaks were fixed, the idle became way too high, and the plane became very hard to start. I also bet my original mag was fine. I was able to get the plane started with that mag right after the annual - but with a great degree of difficulty. If I had just pulled the throttle lever back to idle and then cranked I bet it would've fired right off. So, now that the plane is back to normal, we're going to give the SureFly one more shot. I'm optimistic.

Thanks for this for several reasons
1. Too many people online don't come back and inform the masses once the problem is solved.
2. Surefly not to blame so in my mind it took eating a bit of crow to say so.

Good form!

 

[pburger]

Thanks for this for several reasons
1. Too many people online don't come back and inform the masses once the problem is solved.
2. Surefly not to blame so in my mind it took eating a bit of crow to say so.

Good form!

Eating crow? I said in the original post that it was a mystery and that I was leaning toward a problem with the airplane. I’m just glad the mystery is solved. If the SureFly works, which I think it will, I’ll post a follow-up.

 

[geezer]

Fixing the REAL problem can be hard to do, when there is an APARENT cause right in front of us.

That has been at the center of my career of solving equipment failures. Step back, get all the data, and hope that it is ALL THE DATA. Usually, it is not. Sometimes that meant reading 20 feet of high speed line printer data, to sort out the 4 or 5 lines related to my equipment, that instituted the overall trip of the 500,000,000 watt generator. Then, one card was removed from a 12 card rack, one small resistor was replaced, and the generator went back on line. But I needed every one of those lines related to my equipment.

You and your A/P did not start with all the data, but thought you did. A very common problem. That is why I suggested a new set of eyes, with no initial bias to mag problems.

Very glad you and your mechanic found the root cause.

And especially for posting the real cause here.

 

[Lon Stratton]

My wife and I have a running joke when looking for something around the house. We know the thing is there, where it ought to be, but sometimes just can't find it. So we ask for another set of eyes. Often the items is exactly where it is supposed to be but somehow we have been blinded to the location. We don't shame each other over it, just ask for help, then share a good laugh. Without asking for help, the object stays hidden, cloaked from our own eyes.

I used to tell my kids, "You're not looking for it, you're just wondering where it is". I now apply that to myself when necessary.

 

[pburger]

FINAL RESULTS:

My A&P put the SureFly back on, and the plane starts and runs great. Hopefully this saga is over.

 

[Steamflyer]

Read this thread only because have run a SureFly for several years and several hundred hours with no issues. Never knew there was such a thing as a "certified installer" as it's dirt simple to install. Will be putting another SureFly on another aircraft when its left mag becomes due for the next 500 hour inspection.

Glad your aircraft is working well now. I read your "red text" update and it says that a swap to a new mag did not start the aircraft originally, whereas the original text of the first post says that the new may did start the engine. So that's a bit confusing and probably led the POA choir to implicate the SureFly unnecessarily, which as you noted as an engineer, is surely QC'd before shipping.

Suggest you do a good read of how the Continental continuous fuel injection system works - in my experience an incorrect "idle" (speed? mixture?) will not affect its "startability." Also, how was the defective impulse coupling detected by your A&P? They are also fairly robust.

 

[xander75]

I had the _exact_ same sitiuation months ago... (original) configuration IO360, electroAIR EIS and (non IC) mag, start on EIS only.
Problem starting appear out of nowhere with hard starting (forget about trying with a non IC mag btw).
We replaced battery (EarthX Li ion one), engine heat applied, etc etc. hit or miss.
In the end put an IC mag back on and now on that she starts on that only, like an angel. consistently.
I never figured out what the EIS situation was and ElectroAir and others could not figure it out either. It was said the voltage and RPM first. But that got fixed with the new Li+ battery (recommend that one btw). That first worked like a charm until the same problem reappeared.

In the end an IC mag fixed all my stuff.

ps make sure you do in-flght mag checks and see the rpm drop (and EGT rise). IC mag needs to be timed correctly.

xander

 

[pburger]

Read this thread only because have run a SureFly for several years and several hundred hours with no issues. Never knew there was such a thing as a "certified installer" as it's dirt simple to install. Will be putting another SureFly on another aircraft when its left mag becomes due for the next 500 hour inspection.

Glad your aircraft is working well now. I read your "red text" update and it says that a swap to a new mag did not start the aircraft originally, whereas the original text of the first post says that the new may did start the engine. So that's a bit confusing and probably led the POA choir to implicate the SureFly unnecessarily, which as you noted as an engineer, is surely QC'd before shipping.

Suggest you do a good read of how the Continental continuous fuel injection system works - in my experience an incorrect "idle" (speed? mixture?) will not affect its "startability." Also, how was the defective impulse coupling detected by your A&P? They are also fairly robust.

Yes, the original report from the A&P was that he tried a freshly overhauled mag and it started fine. I did not witness that, and now surmise that he was able to start it by leaving the throttle lever all the way back or maybe doing a flooded start. I'm confident that if I went over there and tried to start it per the POH it wouldn't have started. The defective impulse coupling wasn't "detected" it was "deduced" -- and incorrectly I presume. I believe my original mag was fine all along. I believe the only issue was the incorrect idle setting. The idle should have been checked and adjusted during the annual. Nobody's perfect -- I'm just glad that the problem was identified, demonstrated, and then corrected.

The idle RPM adjustment simply adjusts a stop on the throttle lever. This affects the AIR to the engine. If the stop is set too high, then when you open the throttle to the specified starting position, that throttle setting may be biased enough such that you have too much air, and the fuel/air mixture won't ignite.

As I understand it, the idle MIXTURE setting should have no affect on starting. During a start, the mixture control is at ICO (idle cutoff), so as I understand it there should be no continuous fuel flow. As I understand it, when the system is primed the fuel lines to the cylinders are filled with fuel, but since the mixture control is set to ICO, there is not a continuous flow. That is why you need to advance the mixture control fairly quickly after the engine fires to prevent it from starving and dying.