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Ross Herman

Filing Flight Plan
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Hey guys, New here and also new to forums in general. I Am pursuing a piloting career and starting from scratch at age 31. I am heavily leaning towards UND flight school as I am from MN and would get in state tuition. with that said...
I dont have a good source of income and would rely mostly on federal student loans for school, flight training, and living.
I am really worried about loans covering the flight training costs. Can someone let me know how much I need to cover on my own if I go to a big flight school like UND?

... I know it is not the cheapest route but I want to get it done in a structured environment without high interest 3rd party loans.
 
The high interest 3rd party loans are unsecured loans. Most student loans are unsecured as well, but with the caveat that you cannot have the loan burden discharged through bankruptcy.

The best source of information is UND's financial aid office. All colleges have an entire staff dedicated to all things financial aid. As a perspective student, their services are "free" to you and they can provide the most accurate information.
 
Cici said:
The high interest 3rd party loans are unsecured loans. Most student loans are unsecured as well, but with the caveat that you cannot have the loan burden discharged through bankruptcy.

The best source of information is UND's financial aid office. All colleges have an entire staff dedicated to all things financial aid. As a perspective student, their services are "free" to you and they can provide the most accurate information.
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Appreciate the response, I am calling UND tomorrow.
 
There was a recent article in Flight training from AOPA that featured the program you are planning on going to.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
There are other programs that give you a more rounded education for less money.
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Got a couple programs you strongly recommend? ...keep in mind I'm starting late and do not have money... I have mentally prepared myself to go up to my eyeballs in debt.
 
Well, any 141 program will work for you. The degree is irrelevant as long as it is from an accredited school. My suggestion is to find the cheapest school offering a 141 program and get a degree in anything that interests you and get your ratings with electives.

Look into University of Central Missouri’s program. There are others.

UND is pretty expensive for what you get.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Well, any 141 program will work for you. The degree is irrelevant as long as it is from an accredited school. My suggestion is to find the cheapest school offering a 141 program and get a degree in anything that interests you and get your ratings with electives.

Look into University of Central Missouri’s program. There are others.

UND is pretty expensive for what you get.
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I have heard that before to get it done the cheapest route... I always thought there was value coming out of highly rated universities though, like from the stand point of getting solid regional airline jobs that could propel ones career quicker. Do you think there is truth to that or its just a fancier piece of paper with more debt?
 
My opinion, worth exactly what you paid for it. If the so called pilot shortage comes to fruition this time (and there are indications that it has started) it doesn’t matter where the piece of paper came from.

Think of it like this. If, for some reason you got all the ratings and spent all the money you could not get a flying job, would you rather be $50,000 in debt or $100,000 plus in debt?

Others may chime in with other opinions.
 
The in-state status only affects your University tuition. It doesn't affect the dominant cost of flight training.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Think of it like this. If, for some reason you got all the ratings and spent all the money you could not get a flying job, would you rather be $50,000 in debt or $100,000 plus in debt?
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In the 2008/2012 timeframe, there was a good supply of Applebee's wait staff in Fargo that had a UND degree and a CFI/CFII/MEI behind their name.
 
Why not do the route of getting the CFI rating and then just live ultra frugally on the CFI paycheck while you bank the hours? Work as many hours as possible at Dominos or what not to pay for the $50,000 or for your PPL, Instrument, Commercial, and CFI ratings? Think of it of a short term 5 years of living ultra frugally. No different than college, or a doctor in residency, etc. (You can probably tell that my advice is to avoid debt, and especially student loan debt at all costs.)
 
Do you have a college degree already? If so, you might just consider using the money to buy yourself a decent 152, use it to get started on your ratings and your hours, then sell it off once you no longer need it.
 
Don't forget about the possibility of scholarships! There are a good amount out there for anyone, don't think scholarships are just a thing for fresh high school grads. Search through AOPA, I know they offer some good ones.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Think of it like this. If, for some reason you got all the ratings and spent all the money you could not get a flying job, would you rather be $50,000 in debt or $100,000 plus in debt?
.
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As someone in this latter category, I can't strongly enough recommend, if you are going the student loan route, to NOT go to UND on the basis that the name recognition will mean anything later on. This is like the old adage about med students and letter grades, "what do you call a med school graduate that just barely scraped by with a D? Doctor." It doesn't matter where you get your ratings, as long as your certificate says FAA on it, you're good. So unless there is something else drawing you to a program like UND (and don't get me wrong, this isn't a knock on the UND/ERAUs of the world for their training programs, just their costs), go the cheaper route and save yourself a ton of pain in the bank account later on.
 
I always felt that the best way to go is, if you can't feasibly afford something outright, don't borrow money to pay for it. I am reiterating my suggestion of seeking out a possible scholarship opportunity, and also agreeing with others' opinions of doing what you can about flight training with the money you've got.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
My opinion, worth exactly what you paid for it. If the so called pilot shortage comes to fruition this time (and there are indications that it has started) it doesn’t matter where the piece of paper came from.

Think of it like this. If, for some reason you got all the ratings and spent all the money you could not get a flying job, would you rather be $50,000 in debt or $100,000 plus in debt?

Others may chime in with other opinions.
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I think $50k in debt sounds better lol...
Sierra_Hotel said:
As someone in this latter category, I can't strongly enough recommend, if you are going the student loan route, to NOT go to UND on the basis that the name recognition will mean anything later on. This is like the old adage about med students and letter grades, "what do you call a med school graduate that just barely scraped by with a D? Doctor." It doesn't matter where you get your ratings, as long as your certificate says FAA on it, you're good. So unless there is something else drawing you to a program like UND (and don't get me wrong, this isn't a knock on the UND/ERAUs of the world for their training programs, just their costs), go the cheaper route and save yourself a ton of pain in the bank account later on.
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I dont have a problem going to another flight program. I just want a bachelors degree and for the student loans to cover as much as possible. however, I see that the big airlines all have some fast track career programs if you go to the qualifying schools like Jet Blue has a gateway program for students coming out of UND, ERAU, Jacksonville etc... If Jacksonville would be cheaper for School and living I would rather go there.
 
WDD said:
Why not do the route of getting the CFI rating and then just live ultra frugally on the CFI paycheck while you bank the hours? Work as many hours as possible at Dominos or what not to pay for the $50,000 or for your PPL, Instrument, Commercial, and CFI ratings? Think of it of a short term 5 years of living ultra frugally. No different than college, or a doctor in residency, etc. (You can probably tell that my advice is to avoid debt, and especially student loan debt at all costs.)
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Im starting the career out way late and my girlfriend who also wants to follow same path and become a pilot (late as well) just want to get it done cause we would take very long if not in a structured program course... at least I imagine
 
@Ross Herman - Do you have your medical out of the way. If not do not rush into it and if you have any questions especially around question # 18 come back and ask questions.

Regarding UND - its really hard to imagine you will come out with less than $90K of debt if you finance your degree and all the flight training. Maybe more. Would be cheaper if you already have a college degree or at least 2yrs of college done.

What is you day job right now? How much do you earn and what are your expenses?

You also mention your girlfriend wants to become a pilot. If this is serious and you think you two will not break up then keep working your day job, pool up your money and buy a 150/152. Find a hour hungry CFI who will fly for cash. Get you PPL's in that plane. Knock out some of your instrument hours in that same plane (hood time). Rent a 172/Archer for the other part of your IR. Then fly the 150/152 like crazy to build hours. You will come out waaaayyyy farther ahead and probably get through commerical faster than a structured program.

You want to rush through that degree and the flight training with no regard for the extreme debt. Just remember, your first flying job after you do all that will pay about $33K/year. It takes several years to get up to the pay rates you are reading about. And the whole time you'll have $100K of debt and so will she! Dude that is almost a house in many places.
 
The starting pay I've seen advertised (and heard from friends that have gone through them) for the pathway programs is considerably higher than that, but still considerably less than what you'll make with a couple of years experience and time in the regionals.
 
Sinistar said:
@Ross Herman - Do you have your medical out of the way. If not do not rush into it and if you have any questions especially around question # 18 come back and ask questions.

Regarding UND - its really hard to imagine you will come out with less than $90K of debt if you finance your degree and all the flight training. Maybe more. Would be cheaper if you already have a college degree or at least 2yrs of college done.

What is you day job right now? How much do you earn and what are your expenses?

You also mention your girlfriend wants to become a pilot. If this is serious and you think you two will not break up then keep working your day job, pool up your money and buy a 150/152. Find a hour hungry CFI who will fly for cash. Get you PPL's in that plane. Knock out some of your instrument hours in that same plane (hood time). Rent a 172/Archer for the other part of your IR. Then fly the 150/152 like crazy to build hours. You will come out waaaayyyy farther ahead and probably get through commerical faster than a structured program.

You want to rush through that degree and the flight training with no regard for the extreme debt. Just remember, your first flying job after you do all that will pay about $33K/year. It takes several years to get up to the pay rates you are reading about. And the whole time you'll have $100K of debt and so will she! Dude that is almost a house in many places.
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I have not done my medical, I frequently play sports and in shape so not worried about that part although its on my to do list. not sure what you mean about question #18...

I am currently selling contract jobs for mostly storm damage and after selling cars and working for a couple general contractors I am ready to get a real career that excites me. I dont have money saved and dont have much work in the future so income is nothing until I get something on the side.... I am 17 credits away from my Associates degree and my gf has hers already. I figure I will be so buried in 3rd party loans getting the plane, getting my license, storing plane etc... Id need loans for all of it.... so wouldn't consolidating all debt and going into a flight program at a university that has gateway programs for regional carriers be the best route?
 
Ross Herman said:
I have not done my medical, I frequently play sports and in shape so not worried about that part although its on my to do list. not sure what you mean about question #18...
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You can be in the best shape in the world and not be able to pass a medical. There's a reason everyone is advised to get the medical before putting any money into flying.
 
Sazzy said:
Don't forget about the possibility of scholarships! There are a good amount out there for anyone, don't think scholarships are just a thing for fresh high school grads. Search through AOPA, I know they offer some good ones.
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I will definitely look into that.
 
Student loans are the worst form of debt imaginable. I would defer my education before i'd touch them.
 
Ross Herman said:
Got a couple programs you strongly recommend? ...keep in mind I'm starting late and do not have money... I have mentally prepared myself to go up to my eyeballs in debt.
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So you are willing to go up to your eye balls in debt for a very industry directed degree that has a well documented history of boom and bust with your employability dependent on a medical certificate. What could possibly go wrong?
 
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Ross Herman said:
I have not done my medical...
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Question 18 ask “Do you now, or have you ever in your life had...” and the lists a bunch of medical conditions. The gotchas are

Have you ever been diagnosed or treated for ADD/ADHD?
- Ever Use Adderall, Ritalin or similar
Ever have a DUI?
Ever have an issue with drug or alcohol abuse, as defined by the FAA?
Ever been prescribed an SSRI such as Celexa, Cymbalta, Lexapro, Paxil, Zoloft)

Any of these things ever in your life makes the medical certification generally difficult at best.
 
Agree 100% on the medical. Visit Medical Topics and PM Dr. Bruce. You need to be able to pass a 1st class medical exam, but you can train on a 3rd class.

Do whatever the two of you need to do to avoid procreating until you have an airline job. I think I'd go with the get your training on your own: pass your medical first. If you and a CFI can fit into a C-150/152 buy that, and fly as much with a CFI as possible. You'll need fewer hours total if you train 3 times a week, vs. once a week, and more often would be even better. If you can't fit into a 150/152, get a C-172 to train in.

Finish your associates while you are training - they both require study, then enroll in a STEM course to get your bachelors, in anything but aviation. Remember, in aviation, you are one failed medical away from unemployment!

And, get a part-time job. Once you get your CFI, that will be your job, and you can work your studies around that. Just remember the difference between a large pizza and a CFI. - A large pizza can feed a family of four!

Good luck and go for it!
 
If i had a do over i would get a loan. Spreading my training out over 2 years means ive cost myself 18months seniority 18 months at captain pay. And hopefully 18 months at mainline. If i got a 40k loan i could have paid that off just with what i would have made extra as captain. Get cfi grind hours finish degree while your building seniority at an airline.
 
steingar said:
Student loans are the worst form of debt imaginable. I would defer my education before i'd touch them.
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Then you'd never get an education as the cost only continues to increase.

Student loans in and of themselves are not a bad thing, especially federally backed low interest ones. It's when you get into the private student loan market that it gets ugly in a hurry.
 
falconkidding said:
If i had a do over i would get a loan. Spreading my training out over 2 years means ive cost myself 18months seniority 18 months at captain pay. And hopefully 18 months at mainline. If i got a 40k loan i could have paid that off just with what i would have made extra as captain. Get cfi grind hours finish degree while your building seniority at an airline.
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And this is why time to complete training and get to a solid paying job is an issue, especially since the OP is starting later in life. "Deferring education" until you can pay for it without loans is hard enough for someone straight out of high school these days, how's it going to work for a couple later in life with adult bills to pay?
 
TCABM said:
Question 18 ask “Do you now, or have you ever in your life had...” and the lists a bunch of medical conditions. The gotchas are

Have you ever been diagnosed or treated for ADD/ADHD?
- Ever Use Adderall, Ritalin or similar
Ever have a DUI?
Ever have an issue with drug or alcohol abuse, as defined by the FAA?
Ever been prescribed an SSRI such as Celexa, Cymbalta, Lexapro, Paxil, Zoloft)

Any of these things ever in your life makes the medical certification generally difficult at best.
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And 18.n, while not a show-stopper like the others, can be interesting:

>>>
18.n. Substance dependence; or failed a drug test ever; or substance abuse or use of illegal substance in the last 2 years.
<<<

Just because weed is legal in more and more States, doesn't mean it's legal at the Federal level.
 
TCABM said:
Question 18 ask “Do you now, or have you ever in your life had...” and the lists a bunch of medical conditions. The gotchas are

Have you ever been diagnosed or treated for ADD/ADHD?
- Ever Use Adderall, Ritalin or similar
Ever have a DUI?
Ever have an issue with drug or alcohol abuse, as defined by the FAA?
Ever been prescribed an SSRI such as Celexa, Cymbalta, Lexapro, Paxil, Zoloft)

Any of these things ever in your life makes the medical certification generally difficult at best.
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I was prescribed Adderall in middle school days but havent taken it in a long time otherwise no to all the others and I have always been very healthy at all physicals and no history of medical problems... thanks for clarifying.
 
steingar said:
Student loans are the worst form of debt imaginable. I would defer my education before i'd touch them.
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Is that just because I cant file for bankruptcy down the road? Seems like federal student loan interest rates are better than 3rd party and easier to qualify for.
 
^^^

Adderall is prescribed for ADD/ADHD. FAA doesn’t like ADD/ADHD. Most middle schoolers are given it for convenience, but the diagnosis sticks with the kid for a lifetime. The way out is to get re-diagnosed following the protocol in the above post. If the diagnosis says you don’t have it, then you never did. It could show you have a low level and don’t need meds. It’s a big deal and a pretty complex problem to work out.
 
Sierra_Hotel said:
And this is why time to complete training and get to a solid paying job is an issue, especially since the OP is starting later in life. "Deferring education" until you can pay for it without loans is hard enough for someone straight out of high school these days, how's it going to work for a couple later in life with adult bills to pay?
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Sierra_Hotel said:
And this is why time to complete training and get to a solid paying job is an issue, especially since the OP is starting later in life. "Deferring education" until you can pay for it without loans is hard enough for someone straight out of high school these days, how's it going to work for a couple later in life with adult bills to pay?
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I was hoping to get more feedback like yours! lol... I am not sure if everyone freaking me out on this thread understands my position in life, age wise and financially. I know I am taking a risk but, assuming I pass my medical (and gf)... and if I go to a good flight school wont I be setup for success? I want a change in my life, I have never been passionate about anything that would give me a career and piloting has excited me as it is cool fun, and all I hear from everyone how it is such a good time right now to become one. Working and paying as you go along with trying to pay normal bills seems like it would make the mountain I am climbing sooo much longer and honestly dont know if I could pull it off that way. I feel like I am going to be a good pilot, I have always had good motor skills and was told I was naturally good on controls when I had the privilege of flying in a 737 flight simulator with a 30 yr captain at a bigger airline. What are the chances I can be making $80k/yr plus after a couple years after college if I am focused?
 
Matthew said:
^^^

Adderall is prescribed for ADD/ADHD. FAA doesn’t like ADD/ADHD. Most middle schoolers are given it for convenience, but the diagnosis sticks with the kid for a lifetime. The way out is to get re-diagnosed following the protocol in the above post. If the diagnosis says you don’t have it, then you never did. It could show you have a low level and don’t need meds. It’s a big deal and a pretty complex problem to work out.
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I used to not be able to pay attention in school as I had no interest and my grades were horrible to reflect that def had some form of ADD... since I have matured and back in a community college I have easily stayed focused and the last 3 semesters I have got straight A's without medication. really think I have out grown any ADD but I will def keep this in mind so as to not get road blocked.
 
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