STC for adding an additional Seatbelt

SixPapaCharlie

SixPapaCharlie

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When I bought the Comanche, I didn't know we would be adding a new family member.
As of this afternoon, we are fostering a 13 year old girl and at some point down the line, it may be permanent.

So leading up to this, I did some research and found this:
http://hdneubert.com/3rd_Seatbelt_Package.PDF

Can someone look at that and tell me if I can use this paperwork to add a 3rd seatbelt in the back and what the process entails?

I know it is not ideal but if it is doable, it will allow us to all fly the current plane together even the kids will be a little snug in the back.

Let me know if anyone can help me understand how this works.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
Can someone look at that and tell me if I can use this paperwork to add a 3rd seatbelt in the back and what the process entails?
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WHile possible... I would start by contacting Neubart. If that doesn't pan out contact the ACO listed in Neubarts letter. But keep in mind there has been a number of organizational changes at the ACO level since 1997. There are paths to follow but without the previous approved data from 1964 there's no ability to use this data to install the 3rd belt.
 
If the STC has been abandoned, your mechanic may be able to get a field approval for the installation.
 
Bell206 said:
WHile possible... I would start by contacting Neubart. If that doesn't pan out contact the ACO listed in Neubarts letter. But keep in mind there has been a number of organizational changes at the ACO level since 1997. There are paths to follow but without the previous approved data from 1964 there's no ability to use this data to install the 3rd belt.
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Going to be tough to do. Mr. Neubert flew west a month or two ago. Big loss to the Comanche community.
 
STC or not - the FAA’s view on seatbelts is that they’re a safety improvement. As long as you have decent support of the seatbelt’s performance, your mechanic can probably add one as a field mod.

Props for fostering.
 
bflynn said:
STC or not - the FAA’s view on seatbelts is that they’re a safety improvement. As long as you have decent support of the seatbelt’s performance, your mechanic can probably add one as a field mod.

Props for fostering.
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I think that's reaching. Their view on seatbelts is also that each person must have one, with some minor exceptions not relevant to the discussion. So, to conclude that the FAA is happy for you to modify your aircraft with a field approval, because "seatbelts are a safety improvement" is as reaching as saying the "FAA is happy for you to add an autopilot with a field approval" because they improve safety when used properly.

(3) Except as provided in this paragraph, each person on board a U.S.-registered civil aircraft (except a free balloon that incorporates a basket or gondola or an airship type certificated before November 2, 1987) must occupy an approved seat or berth with a safety belt and, if installed, shoulder harness, properly secured about him or her during movement on the surface, takeoff, and landing.
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There are dozens of things I'd like to do to my plane that would improve safety, but without an STC the FAA won't let me.
 
Is the comanche certified for 5? I'm to lazy to look up the tcds. If so I'd think you could do it, if not I suspect it'll take an stc.

The pa32 is certified for 7, and the 7th seat was a factory option, so adding that seat and belt in my plane was done as a minor modification.
 
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Bill said:
Sounds like Bryan needs a PA32, then he can practice his engine outs for reals!
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BM8.jpg
 
Chip Sylverne said:
Mr. Neubert flew west a month or two ago
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In that case, the path to take is to see if anyone in Piper community picked from where he left off or start calling the current ACO the overseas that region.
bflynn said:
As long as you have decent support of the seatbelt’s performance, your mechanic can probably add one as a field mod.
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FYI: adding or removing passenger berths/seat locations became a major change to type certificate, i.e., STC requirement, a number of years ago. All guidance points to this. Best method is to find that original data from '64 and roll with it otherwise it will be an expensive endeavour.
 
Bryan, you're great folk. I knew that already, but my hat's off to you for fostering and potentially adopting, and she's lucky to have you.

I have no input on the seatbelt, but do have input on your integrity as a person. Even if you did fly a Cirrus.
 
Ted said:
Bryan, you're great folk. I knew that already, but my hat's off to you for fostering and potentially adopting, and she's lucky to have you.

I have no input on the seatbelt, but do have input on your integrity as a person. Even if you did fly a Cirrus.
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Concur, your heart is big, man! Hopefully this works well for everyone.
 
I have the 3rd seat belt in my back seat. No STC paperwork or anything in the logbooks. It may have come that way from the factory? They all match, so it doesn't appear one was added later.

The "modification" doesn't exist. The 3rd seatbelt just clips into the center attachment point the other 2 seat belts do. You want the extra seatbelt? I'll give it to you at Kentucky.
 
EdFred said:
I have the 3rd seat belt in my back seat. No STC paperwork or anything in the logbooks. It may have come that way from the factory? They all match, so it doesn't appear one was added later.

The "modification" doesn't exist. The 3rd seatbelt just clips into the center attachment point the other 2 seat belts do. You want the extra seatbelt? I'll give it to you at Kentucky.
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um yes..
 
Looks like you got your hands on info regarding STC SA767WE for the PA-30 Twin Comanche. You need the one for the PA-24 Comanche. I believe that STC is SA4-956. Looking in DRS, both STCs show as current but the company, Bates Aircraft, has been defunct for ages. I’d call the LA ACO at 562-627-5200 to verify the status of the STC. My guess is it is abandoned but the FAA never updated the info in their system. The ACO will or should be able to tell you.

The TCDS only shows 4 seats for all models so it is unlikely any came from the factory with 5. Any planes with the extra seatbelt likely were altered, either with or without paperwork. You will want paperwork. Recall that to be airworthy, if altered, it must be in its properly altered condition.

In the end, you’ll likely need a field approval from your local FSDO, unless your A&P is willing to call it a minor alteration. Do you know anyone at the FSDO? Rumor is that you do.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
it will allow us to all fly the current plane together even the kids will be a little snug in the back.
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You might have the option to have 2 kids share the same seatbelt. There was a previous interpretation of 91.107 that allowed 2 people to share the same seat and belt within certain limits and it was left to the pilot to make that determination. I can't find the original interpretation but did find an update to it that was posted after a PC-12 accident. There was a move to rescind that original LOI but I don't believe it made it through from what I can find. Regardless, this is Part 91 only but it does keep you out of the "adding a seat" alteration issues.
https://www.federalregister.gov/doc...eat-belt-and-seating-requirements-for-general
 
My hat is off to you and your wife for adopting a child. Especially a teenager. It is hard enough to be a teenager and then to get a new family. I really hope it works out for all of you and you get a new family member.

My wife and I thought about adoption. Then she found out I was wanting to adopt that 21 year old Brazilian girl I had my eye on....

But seriously, you guys have my greatest respect and sincerest wishes and prayers.
 
There is this in the TCDS, probably doesn't help, but maybe...

Optional Seating Seat Installation - Fifth and Sixth per Piper Dwg. 25302 and 26602. Eligible only on S/N 24-4247, and 24-4300 through 24-5034. NOTE 2(m) placard required.
(m) On baggage compartment (For Model PA-24-260, S/N 24-4247, and 24-4300 through 24-5034). "Maximum baggage and/or Passenger Weight 250 lb. in Baggage area, including seats. See Weight and Balance."
 
fwiw, tcds for pa-24-250 lists 4 seats only. Item 611 as highlighted in post 21 is only available for the PA-24-260, which are the foldable kiddie seats in the bag compartment of the bucket seat optioned 24-260s (post '66 comanches). Bench seat comanches are not included in that option.

You can't install the kiddie seats without retrofitting the PA-24-250 into non-bench seat, like the 24-260.

ETA: The SR22 comes with 3 seat belts in the rear nowadays.
 
Kudos to you, sir.

But this is no time to be a skinflint. Teach the young lass to fly, buy her a glider, then simply tow her along behind.
 
After @Jim K gets his plane fixed and finally realizes he needs a PC-12 or a Caravan for all them kids, make an offer on his Lance. :)

Kudos to you, Eren and your kids to opening your hearts and home.
 
With that data and the previous STC, probably doable on a field approval. I would take it on.
 
I have seen where guys in Alaska strap stuff to the outside of their planes. Is that an option? :)
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
When I bought the Comanche, I didn't know we would be adding a new family member.
As of this afternoon, we are fostering a 13 year old girl and at some point down the line, it may be permanent.

So leading up to this, I did some research and found this:
http://hdneubert.com/3rd_Seatbelt_Package.PDF

Can someone look at that and tell me if I can use this paperwork to add a 3rd seatbelt in the back and what the process entails?

I know it is not ideal but if it is doable, it will allow us to all fly the current plane together even the kids will be a little snug in the back.

Let me know if anyone can help me understand how this works.
Click to expand...

Hey @SixPapaCharlie ! Just wondering if you've made any further progress on this? I'm in the same boat!
 
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