Stall training during PPL

Did not read every post, so this could have been stated before…
It’s not “stall training@, although that’s what everyone calls it (including me).

It’s really stall recognition, then how to recover from a stall training.
I understand a stall May be necessary to demonstrate, but it’s truly not “stall training”.
 
Same can be said for spin training. You go up there and you purposely, with great physical exuberance and intent, force the airplane into a spin. Aggressive stall and full stop to stop crossed controls. Nothing surprising about the result. A fatal base to final stall/spin incident doesn't happen anything like that.
 
TommyG said:
But CFIs need to go beyond the ACS, throw that plane into a 30 degree bank, pull up and stall that plane. I would say a large majority do not. They teach the straight and level nice and safe stall.
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Exactly where did you get your large majority of CFI data? The 141 programs are training most pilots these days and Jeppesen is the most used private syllabus in the 141 world. It addresses approach, departure, turning, accelerated, cross controlled and trim stalls as do the other syllabus used in 141 schools.
 
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The purpose of practicing stalls is to avoid them.
 
CFIJose said:
The purpose of practicing stalls is to avoid them.
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Well, not exactly, it's also good to have how to recover ingrained and an automatic response. There have been accidents where an incorrect response resulted in death. One that comes to mind is that airliner where one of the pilots held the control full aft from 30k+ to the crash...
 
Silvaire said:
Same can be said for spin training. You go up there and you purposely, with great physical exuberance and intent, force the airplane into a spin. Aggressive stall and full stop to stop crossed controls. Nothing surprising about the result. A fatal base to final stall/spin incident doesn't happen anything like that.
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Agreed. But you have to start somewhere. Spin training shows you the visual picture of an incipient spin. Once you learn to recognize that, you have a chance to take the instant action necessary to survive at 500 AGL.

Spin training also removes the fear factor that may be present with stalls, by turning the unknown into known. Once you are confident you can handle a botched stall, that frees you up mentally to practice stalls from various attitudes and configurations.

I personally think the "classic" base-to-final stall spin is a bit of a myth passed down through generations of pilots. Everyone talks about it like planes are dropping out of the sky. But stats have been provided in other PoA threads that show it is pretty low on the list of actual accidents, and IMO you have to be a pretty incompetent pilot to have that happen to you.

Stall-spins on departure are more common, especially during turn back attempts. IMO that is where you had better be intimately familiar with how your plane feels at the hairy edge.
 
PaulS said:
Well, not exactly, it's also good to have how to recover ingrained and an automatic response. There have been accidents where an incorrect response resulted in death. One that comes to mind is that airliner where one of the pilots held the control full aft from 30k+ to the crash...
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Absolutely! Then after you do all you describe, you want to avoid them at all costs.

When I was training for the Commercial Certificate, it was required that I recovered after the first initial sign. At the Private Pilot stage, I had to practice full stalls.

At the end of the day, the best way to survive the negative effects of stalls gone badly, is to avoid them. If you don't believe me, ask John & Martha King.
 
Dan Thomas said:
It is to get the student to recognize the scenarios that lead to stalls and spins so they will avoid those scenarios.
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Agree 100%. Power off stalls. Power On Stalls. Gliding stalls. Accelerated etc.
 
From the perspective of having taught thousands of stalls to student pilots and demonstrated more than I can count to examiners and proficiency instructors at all levels, I have the opinion that the FAA doesn't really understand the subject very well. If they did, stall accidents would be rare.

It isn't laboriously setting up a simulation of common places stalls have typically occurred and then demonstrating to perfection some rote response that is important, IMO. That method complicates the essence of the matter. I had my students "play" with stalls without any of the setup procedures introduced until after they could actively perform stall tasks I gave them in progressively more difficult increments. Specifically, stalls out of slow flight uncomplicated by the addition of power at the beginning, including how to cause one chosen wing to drop before the other, at my command. Emphasizing maintaining constant outside visual reference to the horizon for accurate bank control and correlation between the sidewise flow of air resulting from slipping and skidding to achieve the selected "wind drop" result. I would gradually work into more complicated configurations and finally spins — all before teaching flight test required stalls. My belief is that by making the purposeful behavior of the aircraft at the stall point the objective, the pilot will automatically avoid doing it at inappropriate places.
 
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PaulS said:
Well, not exactly, it's also good to have how to recover ingrained and an automatic response.
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Agreed. I make my students play a song (OK, a very monotone song) with the stall warning horn, using small elevator movements. The idea is that it becomes ingrained in the student that pushing the stick forward shuts off the warning horn and gets us away from an impending stall.

- Martin
 
Martin Pauly said:
Agreed. I make my students play a song (OK, a very monotone song) with the stall warning horn, using small elevator movements. The idea is that it becomes ingrained in the student that pushing the stick forward shuts off the warning horn and gets us away from an impending stall.

- Martin
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Nice Latin beat?
 
PaulS said:
I think you have pilots training in million dollar aircraft where recovery from a spin is to pull the chute. In the skipper, in which spins are approved in the utility category, we did stalls like they were going out of style. I think instructors are more relaxed in a $35,000 trainer, but that's just me.
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I always thought that Tomahawk was a cool and underappreciated plane. For a while you could get them pretty cheap..
 
PaulS said:
Well, not exactly, it's also good to have how to recover ingrained and an automatic response. There have been accidents where an incorrect response resulted in death. One that comes to mind is that airliner where one of the pilots held the control full aft from 30k+ to the crash...
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They never realized they were stalled. I put this on not doing proper stall training in swept wing aircraft. They do NOT behave the same as a straight wing aiplane.

We did full aft stick stalls in the T-38. The nose drops to about on the horizon. The wings rock a bit. And the VVI is pegged at over 6000 FPM down.
 
Tantalum said:
I always thought that Tomahawk was a cool and underappreciated plane. For a while you could get them pretty cheap..
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If you can find one with the original configuration with stalls strips only outboard, they are amazing stall trainers, as they will gladly snap roll into a spin.
 
Tantalum said:
I always thought that Tomahawk was a cool and underappreciated plane. For a while you could get them pretty cheap..
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My first instructor called them "traumahawks". He came to a lesson pretty pale one day, told me a student had just done the base to final spin trick on him, it got to incipient before he was able to save it. But a lot of pilots have been successfully trained in them.
 
CFIJose said:
Absolutely! Then after you do all you describe, you want to avoid them at all costs.

When I was training for the Commercial Certificate, it was required that I recovered after the first initial sign. At the Private Pilot stage, I had to practice full stalls.

At the end of the day, the best way to survive the negative effects of stalls gone badly, is to avoid them. If you don't believe me, ask John & Martha King.
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Agreed, but **** happens and one day you might find yourself stalled. Ingrained stall recovery, good thing. Understanding how to fix being behind the power curve especially low to the ground, good thing. Knowing that, at least in a single engine piston airplane, forcing it down on the runway never results in a good outcome, good thing. Understanding it is not only ok to go around at any time, including after the wheels touch the ground (after a bounce) but may save your bacon, is a good thing. How to recover from a spin, good thing.

I'm seeing instructors that write (not you, or here for that matter) who instruct like avoiding things will keep you safe and don't allow situations to develop. I think these guys are doing a disservice, nobody is perfect, things will and do happen. The best way to not fear something is to live through it. By this I mean stalls, bad approaches, low go arounds, spins, spirals, touch and goes, and whatever else that can happen and be safely taught .
 
Pinecone said:
They never realized they were stalled. I put this on not doing proper stall training in swept wing aircraft. They do NOT behave the same as a straight wing aiplane.

We did full aft stick stalls in the T-38. The nose drops to about on the horizon. The wings rock a bit. And the VVI is pegged at over 6000 FPM down.
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But still, I can't think of any scenario, in pretty much any airplane, where holding the stick full aft for the 5 or so minutes it took that plane to crash, is the correct answer.
 
Gilbert Buettner said:
And if you are still in the stall going through 10,000 feet, EJECT.
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Yeap, the seat was not good enough to overcome a lot of downward vector.

I still remember my favorite WARNING in the Dash 1.

"This aircraft can generate sink rates at traffic pattern altitude to preclude either recovery or safe ejection."

That is, you are at 1500 feet (TPA) and you are dead. You can ride in the airplane, or eject and hit the ground in the seat.

But LOVED flying it.
 
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