Square your base to final

eman1200 said:
Let’s assume I was about 8 miles out. You’re saying I turn base there and fly an 8 mile final?
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If that's what the controller instructed you to do, but that far out it won't be the tower. It'd be approach control, who would issue you a heading to fly at that point.
 
eman1200 said:
Let’s assume I was about 8 miles out. You’re saying I turn base there and fly an 8 mile final?
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Ive heard the instruction many times. Never 8 miles out. Always pretty close in. If I heard it that far out, I'd continue on my current heading and then turn base at a reasonable base distance.
 
Dunno about 8 miles out, but I've gotten it from KGYR tower from 6 out, to follow traffic that was still four miles out on a straight-in for runway 3. I just took it to mean fly a right-angle track from my present position to the extended runway centerline.
 
luvflyin said:
Yer gonna have trouble finding a pat answer. How far out
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Part of the issue is "square your..." is typically used (AFAIK) in the traffic pattern to tell pilots to fly a normal pattern leg and not to shortcut - for example, to fly a base leg perpendicular to final as opposed to angling the base leg toward final. A spacing consideration close in.

This example is from outside the pattern. I'm treating it as the same, although I guess it can lead to a bit of confusion in certain contexts (I could be wrong too). Far out, I would expect something more akin to "report 3 mile base" than "square your..." if ATC wanted me to turn left and proceed southbound parallel to the runway in @eman1200's 8 miles out scenario.

Of course, if we are unsure of an instruction, it is both a good idea and a regulatory requirement to ask.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Part of the issue is "square your..." is typically used (AFAIK) in the traffic pattern to tell pilots to fly a normal pattern leg and not to shortcut - for example, to fly a base leg perpendicular to final as opposed to angling the base leg toward final. A spacing consideration close in.

This example is from outside the pattern. I'm treating it as the same, although I guess it can lead to a bit of confusion in certain contexts (I could be wrong too). Far out, I would expect something more akin to "report 3 mile base" than "square your..." if ATC wanted me to turn left and proceed southbound parallel to the runway in @eman1200's 8 miles out scenario.

Of course, if we are unsure of an instruction, it is both a good idea and a regulatory requirement to ask.
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Yeah. If you get it while already in the pattern, like in @eman1200 ’s original post back in 2015 where he was downwind when he got, it means none of that 180 stuff, make two 90’s. In the reincarnation a couple days ago he’s out yonder, not in the pattern yet and getting pattern ‘entry’ instructions. There was just ‘enter left base.’ Without any ‘qualification’ from the Tower like ‘for a 3 mile final’ or something like, proceeding directly to that point where you would have made your base turn had you been downwind is just fine. If they need something different, like they want you to turn to a course perpendicular to final from where you are right then and turn final from there, they gotta say a few more words than just ‘enter left base and make a square turn to final.’ If you’re way out there what that amounts to is just a straight in. ‘Make straight in, report 5 mile final’ is a typical instruction in that case. If some incident happened and the controller says ‘he was way out there and I told him to enter left base so he shoulda turned a 5 mile final’ he’s gonna have some ‘splainin’ to do. Actually he’s gonna have some ‘splainin’ done to him and you may not hear his voice on the radio for a few days.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Part of the issue is "square your..." is typically used (AFAIK) in the traffic pattern to tell pilots to fly a normal pattern leg and not to shortcut - for example, to fly a base leg perpendicular to final as opposed to angling the base leg toward final. A spacing consideration close in.

This example is from outside the pattern. I'm treating it as the same, although I guess it can lead to a bit of confusion in certain contexts (I could be wrong too). Far out, I would expect something more akin to "report 3 mile base" than "square your..." if ATC wanted me to turn left and proceed southbound parallel to the runway in @eman1200's 8 miles out scenario.

Of course, if we are unsure of an instruction, it is both a good idea and a regulatory requirement to ask.
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As a student this is something that concerns me a little. Being given an instruction that I don't understand. So how is the best way to get clarification? My instinct would be "not sure of the meaning, can you clarify the request?"

I would be very nervous continuing without knowing what was being requested.
 
LongRoadBob said:
So how is the best way to get clarification?
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Just ask, and don’t worry excessively about exact terminology. Use plain english if that’s what it takes to get your message across.

My impression is it’s inexperienced pilots who may hesitate to ask for fear of sounding dumb. Higher time pilots are less likely to worry - ATC is there to serve pilots, not the other way around.
 
I have decided to take a more Biblical approach to flying, including pattern work.
The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."
John 3:8

Can you imagine me quoting that to the tower or approach some day?
I wish LiveATC also recorded facial expressions.
 
Shepherd said:
I have decided to take a more Biblical approach to flying, including pattern work.
The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."
John 3:8

Can you imagine me quoting that to the tower or approach some day?
I wish LiveATC also recorded facial expressions.
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To which they reply " 'Romans 13:5 You must obey the authorities. Then you will not be punished. You must also obey them because you know it is right.' Square your base lest we smite you with a phone number."
 
Shepherd said:
I have decided to take a more Biblical approach to flying, including pattern work.
The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."
John 3:8

Can you imagine me quoting that to the tower or approach some day?
I wish LiveATC also recorded facial expressions.
Click to expand...

That would be too much fun. But don’t stop at ‘facial’
 
Just a datapoint -- This necro thread has now had 36 posts since revival. It only had 26 in it's first incarnation. [Although some were Henning which makes them far more poignant]
 
Shepherd said:
I have decided to take a more Biblical approach to flying, including pattern work.
The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."
John 3:8

Can you imagine me quoting that to the tower or approach some day?
I wish LiveATC also recorded facial expressions.
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What??!! You have a radio in the hand-propped Cub?? :eek:
Sacrilege.
What next? TKS and an IFR GPS? :p
 
Do I have to fly a 900nm pattern like my CFI taught me? Waste of time and gas
 
LongRoadBob said:
As a student this is something that concerns me a little. Being given an instruction that I don't understand. So how is the best way to get clarification? My instinct would be "not sure of the meaning, can you clarify the request?"

I would be very nervous continuing without knowing what was being requested.
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I agree completely with @FastEddieB. The biggest remnant of "mike fright" seems to be hesitation in challenging/refusing/clarifying ATC instructions. There's no reason for it. Much, much, MUCH better to get a controller annoyed by having to repeat an instruction than to get it wrong and cause a problem.

My typical request for clarification is to ask confirmation of what I think it meant instead of parroting the instruction. So, for example, in the 8 miles out scenario, if I thought ATC wanted me to turn left and proceed due south and then make a right turn to join left base, I might respond with, "Confirm due south to join an extended left base." Of course, if you don't know what the heck ATC meant, just say so.

We had something like this happen some years back at my old home base. ATC give this really weird instruction. If you want to picture it (using different numbers), pilot was coming in from the west. ATC wanted the pilot to join an extended right downwind for runway 36 3 miles south of the airport. Strange instruction to begin with but it was also phrased in a way which was not clear. Pilot simply did what he thought was right - joined a normal right downwind midfield. Got yelled at. Fortunately, Tower and the flight schools had an excellent relationship and it was the beginning of a series of ATC visits to flight school meetings.
 
LongRoadBob said:
As a student this is something that concerns me a little. Being given an instruction that I don't understand. So how is the best way to get clarification? My instinct would be "not sure of the meaning, can you clarify the request?"

I would be very nervous continuing without knowing what was being requested.
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Sometimes Bob, you just have to be yourself. Sitting in the cockpit on the radio if you're just so used to sitting upright with squared shoulders, staring at your tailnumber taped to the dash getting ready to call tower to use a mechanized version of 'official' words of 'tower this is Nxxxx looking to taxi to runway x, departure to the NE with information echo'... It can be terrifying to students that are new. They've heard their instructors do it multiple times so 'officially'.... now it's their turn.

Yikes! The whole world of aviation is going to hear me! What if I make a mistake talking?!!! They are gonna laugh at me. NO WAY that will happen. Radio operations is a critical part of aviation but it isn't un-forgivable. We all started in your shoes and the very fact that you are trying, is awesome.

Any time and I mean ANY TIME, the official commo screws with your mind, just TELL them - Tower this is Nxxxx I'm a STUDENT pilot and I'm having a problem understanding your request, can you please explain - THEY WILL!, it's their job. (Other pilots hearing you will be thanking God that you actually asked for clarification! There's nothing 'official' of making sense).

Like @FastEddieB just said, they are their for us, not the other way around. It takes a bit of time but you will eventually become one of those that can do 'faa speak' in milliseconds off the cuff. Be patient with yourself and your growing skillset. All the other pilots in the pattern will fully understand and if they heard you and met you at the ramp, would happily offer their assistance and advice. Even jet pilots are real humans. Not machines.

Cheers, and best of luck!
 
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D. Ryan is right @LongRoadBob - asking the question in plain English is the better than "sounding official"

The license to learn is not only in our wallets when we get a PPL certificate... the controllers are learning every day as well. We often have rookies at our local tower and they are not immune to flubs. Sometimes they get used to handing out "Report left downwind 36" like breath mints, and I'll have to reply "Bug Destroyer 666 is 6 SOUTH" and they say say, "Oh, expect straight in 36, report abeam downtown."

The first time that happened to me I had an instructor next to me doing transition training to the Cardinal and probably my third arrival at that airport. I drew it out in my head and asked him why they wanted me to do go [finger drawing in the sky]. He said something to the effect of "What?" and I repeated the instruction they had given and I had read back. He said "That's not right, ask them again."

Morals of the story - 1) When in doubt, ASK. 2) Everyone flubs up occasionally, even SGOTI :)
 
Ravioli said:
Just a datapoint -- This necro thread has now had 36 posts since revival. It only had 26 in it's first incarnation. [Although some were Henning which makes them far more poignant]
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So you’re saying we’re half an order of magnitude better than last time? :)
 
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