Sport Pilot CFI and BFR

Discussion in 'Pilot Training' started by Dana, Jan 8, 2019.

  1. Dana

    Dana Line Up and Wait

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    I know a Sport Pilot CFI can give a flight review to a Private Pilot. But can he do it in an aircraft that is not an LSA, provided he (the CFI-SP) also has a Private or higher certificate and thus qualified to act as PIC in the aircraft? The obvious answer is "no", but you'd think the same about the first sentence and that one's not "no".
     
  2. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

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    I would not think the answer to the first one is "no." But the second one is "no."

    Look at it this way.

    A "regular" CFI with only a single-engine rating can give a flight review to a pilot with both a single and multi rating, so long as the flight review is in a single. Same thing.

    So long as the trainee has pilot ratings or privileges for both:

    It's not about the instructor's pilot ratings and privileges.

    It is about the instructors' instructor ratings and privileges.
     
  3. DaleB

    DaleB En-Route

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    OK, so a Private Pilot is flying with a CFI to do a flight review.

    Who is PIC? It's not the CFI, right? So why would the SP CFI need to be qualified to act as PIC?

    I'm not 100% certain, but that's my take on it.
     
  4. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Final Approach

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    Just to provide a regulatory reference...
     
  5. pdonahue

    pdonahue Pre-Flight

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    61.413:
    If you hold a flight instructor certificate with a sport pilot rating, you are authorized, within the limits of your certificate and rating, to provide training and endorsements that are required for, and relate to -
    (6) A flight review or operating privilege for a sport pilot;

    Was there a legal interpretation that says that they can give a flight review to a private pilot?
     
  6. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Final Approach

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    Not that I’m aware of, but 61.56 specifically states that a pilot can receive a flight review in any aircraft in which they’re qualified as PIC from an instructor authorized in that aircraft.
     
  7. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

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    Not necessarily. It's generally a choice who is PIC. But there are a number of situations in which the CFI must be the PIC. The simplest? The pilot's last flight review was in December 2016 and the new one takes place January 2019.

    But the question has zero to do with who is PIC.
     
  8. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

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    Actually, I am going to change the first part of my original answer. I don't know the answer. As you point out, the FR regulation calls for

    "a flight review given in an aircraft for which that pilot is rated by an authorized instructor..."

    That's a term of art referring to the privileges and limitations of the instructor and as @pdonahue points out, 61.413 appears to limit flight review authority to "sport pilots."

    It's an interesting question.
     
  9. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Final Approach

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    Since a Private Pilot also has Sport Pilot level privileges, he can be a "sport Pilot" when receiving a flight review. I don't see any issues there.
     
  10. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

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    He's not a "Sport Pilot." He's a "Private Pilot" (that's what's written in his certificate) who happens to fly an SLA.

    I can see it either way.
     
  11. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Final Approach

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    If I’m a commercial or ATP AMEL with Private Pilot privileges for ASES, I can receive a flight review in an ASES (I’m just a Private Pilot for the FR) that still allows me to exercise commercial privileges in AMEL.

    Lacking specific guidance to the contrary, I’d say the same applies to Sport Pilot privileges.
     
  12. Dana

    Dana Line Up and Wait

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    Well, that seems to answer my question with a definite "no".

    As for the first, all I can say is I (as a PP) have received my last three flight reviews from a CFI-SP, and when the FAA reviewed my logbooks after my forced landing a year and a half ago, they didn't question it.

    I did it with the CFI-SP because the local FBO has a J-3 that's flown by their two sport pilot instructors, and none of the full CFIs had tailwheel endorsements. Getting used to a C-172 again for a flight review would be a waste of time when all I want to do is fly little tailwheel biplanes.

    The reason for the question is that now for the first time in many years I own an airplane that has two seats, tailwheel and not LSA, and naturally I'd prefer to do the flight review in my own plane.
     
  13. Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe

    Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    61.101 (c) This subpart applies to applicants for, and holders of, sport pilot certificates. It also applies to holders of recreational pilot certificates and higher, as provided in §61.303
    So if you be flying an ell ess eh?, you can be a sport pilot too!
     
  14. Dana

    Dana Line Up and Wait

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    I believe the way they word it is "private or higher exercising sport pilot privileges," lik a PP with an expired medical flying a LSA, or a PP with a medical (though it's irrelevant) flying a different class or category of LSA with a SP logbook endorsement instead of a checkride and certificate rating.
     
  15. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Final Approach

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    Just to provide more food for thought here, if "Private Pilot" means what's written on the certificate, that would also mean that a commercial or ATP cannot share expenses, be reimbursed for aircraft operating expenses that are directly related to search and location operations, or conduct any of the other operations that "a private pilot may".
     
  16. Clip4

    Clip4 En-Route

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    The answer is 61.413 (a))6), an SP CFI only authorized to provide “A flight review or operating privilege for a sport pilot;”
     
  17. Salty

    Salty En-Route PoA Supporter

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    As a holder of a PPL can I not fly an LSA without my medical onboard? When doing so am I not a sport pilot? If so, can I not get a CFIS to give me a flight review as a sport pilot?
     
  18. Clip4

    Clip4 En-Route

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    No, you have a private pilot certificate. A medical certificate is not a requirement of a flight review. A light sport CFI is only authorized to give pilots with a light sport certificate a flight review. You opting not to get a medical and flying LS doesn’t modify the regulation.

    Also nothing would stop you from getting a medical and exercising you full PP privedges.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2019
  19. Salty

    Salty En-Route PoA Supporter

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    I can fly an lsa without my medical onboard as a private pilot as I am flying under sport pilot rules. That makes me a sport pilot. That means a CFIS can give me a flight review in that LSA.

    Note that I didn’t say my medical is expired. My point is that I can still fly an LSA without the medical on board because it is not required to exercise sport pilot privledges. I can’t fly above 10,000, or at night, without the medical onboard, but I can take a flight review from a CFIS, and he can perform it.
     
  20. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Final Approach

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    So you’re also saying that an ATP cannot share expenses, because the reg only allows Private Pilots to do so?

    Nothing in either of these regs says “certificate”.
     
  21. Clip4

    Clip4 En-Route

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    No, the LS CFI is not authorized to give you a flight review.
     
  22. Salty

    Salty En-Route PoA Supporter

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    Show the reg that says so.
     
  23. Clip4

    Clip4 En-Route

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    Anyone can fly with priveldges below their certification, but because you are allowed to do that does not allow a LSCFI privileges beyond their certification. Under your beliefs an ATP flying a corporate jet can get a flight review from a LSCFI in a cub. That not how it works.
     
  24. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Final Approach

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    No, my belief (As clearly stated in the reg) is that an ATP flying a corporate jet doesn’t need a flight review. But if that ATP is flying a corporate King Air that doesn’t require a type rating, yes, he can get that flight review in a LSA from a LSCFI, provided the ATP is rated to act as PIC in the LSA being used.

    So you’re saying a “regular” CFI with only ASE privileges cannot give a FR to someone who has both ASE and AME privileges, because it’s beyond the CFI’s certification?
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2019
  25. Clip4

    Clip4 En-Route

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    What I am saying is this, if you pull out your pilot certificate and it does not say sport pilot and a sport pilot CFI endorses you for a flight review and FAA investigates for any reason, your flight review is invalid because the light sport CFI was not authorized to give you a flight review. You and the LS CFI will subject to FAA enforcement. But you do as you want.
     
  26. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Final Approach

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    What about an ATP with only SP privileges at the ASE level?

    And what do you see as the difference between a FR for a Sport Pilot in a J-3 vs an ATP in a J-3?

    Obviously it wasn’t an issue in the example given where the FAA reviewed Dana’s logbooks. In fact, AC 61.98c states, “In such case, the pilot may take a flight review in any one of the aircraft for which he or she holds a rating or operating privilege and they will have met the regulatory requirement for all aircraft for which they hold a certificate and or rating.” The ATP holds Sport Pilot operating privileges in those categories/classes for which he is rated, so he can take a flight review at the Sport Pilot level and be good to go.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2019
  27. SkyDog58

    SkyDog58 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Best thing to do would be to call your FSDO and ask to speak to an ops inspector. It just might take awhile before they answer the phone.
     
  28. Dana

    Dana Line Up and Wait

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    Well, at the time of my incident, I was flying a LSA-compliant aircraft without a medical, so I was "a PP exercising the privileges of a SP".

    But does 61.413 (a)(6) mean "(a flight review) or (operating privilege for a sport pilot)" or "(a flight review or operating privilege) for a sport pilot"?
     
  29. Clip4

    Clip4 En-Route

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    • According to AOPA, I am incorrect.
    • Flight review. Sport instructors are authorized to provide a flight review and logbook endorsements for a sport pilot. However, this is not a limitation and does not mean that the sport instructor cannot provide a flight review for other pilots in the LSA. Sport instructors may also conduct training in the FAA Pilot Proficiency Program (WINGS). Generally, it's agreed that the sport instructor can conduct most any instruction within the limits of his/her certificate so long as it is done in an LSA.
     
  30. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Final Approach

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    Well, if AOPA says that, you must’ve been right all along! o_O