Sport Pilot CFI and BFR

Discussion in 'Pilot Training' started by Dana, Jan 8, 2019.

  1. Dana

    Dana Cleared for Takeoff

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    I know a Sport Pilot CFI can give a flight review to a Private Pilot. But can he do it in an aircraft that is not an LSA, provided he (the CFI-SP) also has a Private or higher certificate and thus qualified to act as PIC in the aircraft? The obvious answer is "no", but you'd think the same about the first sentence and that one's not "no".
     
  2. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I would not think the answer to the first one is "no." But the second one is "no."

    Look at it this way.

    A "regular" CFI with only a single-engine rating can give a flight review to a pilot with both a single and multi rating, so long as the flight review is in a single. Same thing.

    So long as the trainee has pilot ratings or privileges for both:

    It's not about the instructor's pilot ratings and privileges.

    It is about the instructors' instructor ratings and privileges.
     
  3. DaleB

    DaleB En-Route

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    OK, so a Private Pilot is flying with a CFI to do a flight review.

    Who is PIC? It's not the CFI, right? So why would the SP CFI need to be qualified to act as PIC?

    I'm not 100% certain, but that's my take on it.
     
  4. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Final Approach

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    Just to provide a regulatory reference...
     
  5. pdonahue

    pdonahue Pre-Flight

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    61.413:
    If you hold a flight instructor certificate with a sport pilot rating, you are authorized, within the limits of your certificate and rating, to provide training and endorsements that are required for, and relate to -
    (6) A flight review or operating privilege for a sport pilot;

    Was there a legal interpretation that says that they can give a flight review to a private pilot?
     
  6. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Final Approach

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    Not that I’m aware of, but 61.56 specifically states that a pilot can receive a flight review in any aircraft in which they’re qualified as PIC from an instructor authorized in that aircraft.
     
  7. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Not necessarily. It's generally a choice who is PIC. But there are a number of situations in which the CFI must be the PIC. The simplest? The pilot's last flight review was in December 2016 and the new one takes place January 2019.

    But the question has zero to do with who is PIC.
     
  8. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Actually, I am going to change the first part of my original answer. I don't know the answer. As you point out, the FR regulation calls for

    "a flight review given in an aircraft for which that pilot is rated by an authorized instructor..."

    That's a term of art referring to the privileges and limitations of the instructor and as @pdonahue points out, 61.413 appears to limit flight review authority to "sport pilots."

    It's an interesting question.
     
  9. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Final Approach

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    Since a Private Pilot also has Sport Pilot level privileges, he can be a "sport Pilot" when receiving a flight review. I don't see any issues there.
     
  10. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Touchdown! Greaser!

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    He's not a "Sport Pilot." He's a "Private Pilot" (that's what's written in his certificate) who happens to fly an SLA.

    I can see it either way.
     
  11. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Final Approach

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    If I’m a commercial or ATP AMEL with Private Pilot privileges for ASES, I can receive a flight review in an ASES (I’m just a Private Pilot for the FR) that still allows me to exercise commercial privileges in AMEL.

    Lacking specific guidance to the contrary, I’d say the same applies to Sport Pilot privileges.
     
  12. Dana

    Dana Cleared for Takeoff

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    Well, that seems to answer my question with a definite "no".

    As for the first, all I can say is I (as a PP) have received my last three flight reviews from a CFI-SP, and when the FAA reviewed my logbooks after my forced landing a year and a half ago, they didn't question it.

    I did it with the CFI-SP because the local FBO has a J-3 that's flown by their two sport pilot instructors, and none of the full CFIs had tailwheel endorsements. Getting used to a C-172 again for a flight review would be a waste of time when all I want to do is fly little tailwheel biplanes.

    The reason for the question is that now for the first time in many years I own an airplane that has two seats, tailwheel and not LSA, and naturally I'd prefer to do the flight review in my own plane.
     
  13. Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe

    Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe Touchdown! Greaser!

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    61.101 (c) This subpart applies to applicants for, and holders of, sport pilot certificates. It also applies to holders of recreational pilot certificates and higher, as provided in §61.303
    So if you be flying an ell ess eh?, you can be a sport pilot too!
     
  14. Dana

    Dana Cleared for Takeoff

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    I believe the way they word it is "private or higher exercising sport pilot privileges," lik a PP with an expired medical flying a LSA, or a PP with a medical (though it's irrelevant) flying a different class or category of LSA with a SP logbook endorsement instead of a checkride and certificate rating.
     
  15. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Final Approach

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    Just to provide more food for thought here, if "Private Pilot" means what's written on the certificate, that would also mean that a commercial or ATP cannot share expenses, be reimbursed for aircraft operating expenses that are directly related to search and location operations, or conduct any of the other operations that "a private pilot may".
     
  16. Clip4

    Clip4 Final Approach

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    The answer is 61.413 (a))6), an SP CFI only authorized to provide “A flight review or operating privilege for a sport pilot;”
     
  17. Salty

    Salty Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    As a holder of a PPL can I not fly an LSA without my medical onboard? When doing so am I not a sport pilot? If so, can I not get a CFIS to give me a flight review as a sport pilot?
     
  18. Clip4

    Clip4 Final Approach

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    No, you have a private pilot certificate. A medical certificate is not a requirement of a flight review. A light sport CFI is only authorized to give pilots with a light sport certificate a flight review. You opting not to get a medical and flying LS doesn’t modify the regulation.

    Also nothing would stop you from getting a medical and exercising you full PP privedges.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2019
  19. Salty

    Salty Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    I can fly an lsa without my medical onboard as a private pilot as I am flying under sport pilot rules. That makes me a sport pilot. That means a CFIS can give me a flight review in that LSA.

    Note that I didn’t say my medical is expired. My point is that I can still fly an LSA without the medical on board because it is not required to exercise sport pilot privledges. I can’t fly above 10,000, or at night, without the medical onboard, but I can take a flight review from a CFIS, and he can perform it.
     
  20. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Final Approach

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    So you’re also saying that an ATP cannot share expenses, because the reg only allows Private Pilots to do so?

    Nothing in either of these regs says “certificate”.
     
  21. Clip4

    Clip4 Final Approach

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    No, the LS CFI is not authorized to give you a flight review.
     
  22. Salty

    Salty Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    Show the reg that says so.
     
  23. Clip4

    Clip4 Final Approach

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    Anyone can fly with priveldges below their certification, but because you are allowed to do that does not allow a LSCFI privileges beyond their certification. Under your beliefs an ATP flying a corporate jet can get a flight review from a LSCFI in a cub. That not how it works.
     
  24. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Final Approach

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    No, my belief (As clearly stated in the reg) is that an ATP flying a corporate jet doesn’t need a flight review. But if that ATP is flying a corporate King Air that doesn’t require a type rating, yes, he can get that flight review in a LSA from a LSCFI, provided the ATP is rated to act as PIC in the LSA being used.

    So you’re saying a “regular” CFI with only ASE privileges cannot give a FR to someone who has both ASE and AME privileges, because it’s beyond the CFI’s certification?
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2019
  25. Clip4

    Clip4 Final Approach

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    What I am saying is this, if you pull out your pilot certificate and it does not say sport pilot and a sport pilot CFI endorses you for a flight review and FAA investigates for any reason, your flight review is invalid because the light sport CFI was not authorized to give you a flight review. You and the LS CFI will subject to FAA enforcement. But you do as you want.
     
  26. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Final Approach

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    What about an ATP with only SP privileges at the ASE level?

    And what do you see as the difference between a FR for a Sport Pilot in a J-3 vs an ATP in a J-3?

    Obviously it wasn’t an issue in the example given where the FAA reviewed Dana’s logbooks. In fact, AC 61.98c states, “In such case, the pilot may take a flight review in any one of the aircraft for which he or she holds a rating or operating privilege and they will have met the regulatory requirement for all aircraft for which they hold a certificate and or rating.” The ATP holds Sport Pilot operating privileges in those categories/classes for which he is rated, so he can take a flight review at the Sport Pilot level and be good to go.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2019
  27. SkyDog58

    SkyDog58 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Best thing to do would be to call your FSDO and ask to speak to an ops inspector. It just might take awhile before they answer the phone.
     
  28. Dana

    Dana Cleared for Takeoff

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    Well, at the time of my incident, I was flying a LSA-compliant aircraft without a medical, so I was "a PP exercising the privileges of a SP".

    But does 61.413 (a)(6) mean "(a flight review) or (operating privilege for a sport pilot)" or "(a flight review or operating privilege) for a sport pilot"?
     
  29. Clip4

    Clip4 Final Approach

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    • According to AOPA, I am incorrect.
    • Flight review. Sport instructors are authorized to provide a flight review and logbook endorsements for a sport pilot. However, this is not a limitation and does not mean that the sport instructor cannot provide a flight review for other pilots in the LSA. Sport instructors may also conduct training in the FAA Pilot Proficiency Program (WINGS). Generally, it's agreed that the sport instructor can conduct most any instruction within the limits of his/her certificate so long as it is done in an LSA.
     
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  30. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Final Approach

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    Well, if AOPA says that, you must’ve been right all along! o_O
     
  31. Dana

    Dana Cleared for Takeoff

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    I was discussing it with the aforementioned SP-CFI this weekend. He said he had a confirmation from the local FSDO that he may indeed give a flight review (or tailwheel endorsement, another thing he does) for a higher rated pilot, as long as it's in a LSA.
     
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  32. Daniel Gervae

    Daniel Gervae Filing Flight Plan

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    This is an interesting discussion....I am a Private Pilot with a CFI-SP. I have to take the same refresher as any other CFI every 2 years. I have given BFR to a fellow Private Pilot in an LSA compliant aircraft....I've done a few tailwheel endorsements and seaplane ratings for people.....another interesting question would be can I give seaplane instruction to a Private Pilot in my LSA and sign him off for a checkride for a full blown SES...the LSA seaplane rating is done differently. For that, one instructor gives the training and another CFI does the checkride.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2020
  33. Half Fast

    Half Fast En-Route

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    Baloney.

    Since SP instruction from a SP CFI can be used toward a PPL, it would make zero sense that a Sport CFI couldn’t give a PPL a flight review.

    Almost all of my instruction for my PPL was in an LSA from a Sport CFI.
     
  34. Daniel Gervae

    Daniel Gervae Filing Flight Plan

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    If the new proposed rule change takes shape increasing the gross weight for LSA category to 3600 lbs (or whatever it ends up being) as announced recently....It will really open this issue up......I would be able to give instruction, BFRs and endorsements in much larger aircraft....172's, cherokees, 182s....the list goes on. As long as I'm qualified to operate those....which I already am since i am a Private Pilot...I just chose to get the CFI-SP so I could teach friends and family to fly for free......I wanted have company in my chosen hobby:) The only real difference between my CFI training vs. a "Regular" CFI is I didn't need an Instrument and Commercial to get it....the checkride was thorough (If not rather difficult) and the written included both the FOI (Fundamentals of Instruction) and the CFI written exam itself (2 separate tests). Minus the instrument portion. Hopefully this ends up being a good thing for aviation.
     
  35. Craigd31

    Craigd31 Pre-Flight

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    What is pasted below seems to indicate that a flight review or proficiency check by a light sport CFI counts for the required biennial flight review under 61.56. The limitation appears to be that the light sport CFI can do the BFR, but only in a light sport aircraft. The pilot can do the BFR in any aircraft category/class for which the pilot is rated.

    https://www.faa.gov/licenses_certif...tion/sport_pilot/media/FAA-AFS800_Palmer1.pdf

    Does the proficiency check required by§ 61.321(b) for a Sport Pilot or higher certificated pilot also meet the proficiency check or practical test requirement for the§ 61.56(d) flight review exemption requirement?

    An airman who has passed the pilot proficiency check required by Title 14 of the Code of Federal Regulations (14 CFR) § 61.321(b) need not accomplish a flight review within the preceding twenty four calendar months, as prescribed in§ 61.56(d)(l).

    61.415 What are the limits of a flight instructor certificate with a sport pilot rating?
    If you hold a flight instructor certificate with a sport pilot rating, you may only provide flight training in a light-sport aircraft and are subject to the following limits:
    (d) You may not endorse a:
    (4) Logbook of a pilot for a flight review, unless you have conducted a review of that pilot in accordance with the requirements of § 61.56.
    61.56
    (c) Except as provided in paragraphs (d), (e), and (g) of this section, no person may act as pilot in command of an aircraft unless, since the beginning of the 24th calendar month before the month in which that pilot acts as pilot in command, that person has—

    (1) Accomplished a flight review given in an aircraft for which that pilot is rated by an authorized instructor and

    61.321 How do I obtain privileges to operate an additional category or class of light-sport aircraft?
    (b) Successfully complete a proficiency check from an authorized instructor other than the instructor who trained you on the aeronautical knowledge areas and areas of operation specified in §§61.309 and 61.311 for the additional light-sport aircraft privilege you seek;
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2020
  36. Clip4

    Clip4 Final Approach

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    §61.413 What are the privileges of my flight instructor certificate with a sport pilot rating?
    (a) If you hold a flight instructor certificate with a sport pilot rating, you are authorized, within the limits of your certificate and rating, to provide training and endorsements that are required for, and relate to—

    (1) A student pilot seeking a sport pilot certificate;


    (2) A sport pilot certificate;

    (3) A flight instructor certificate with a sport pilot rating;

    (4) A powered parachute or weight-shift-control aircraft rating;

    (5) Sport pilot privileges;

    (6) A flight review or operating privilege for a sport pilot;

    (7) A practical test for a sport pilot certificate, a private pilot certificate with a powered parachute or weight-shift-control aircraft rating or a flight instructor certificate with a sport pilot rating;

    (8) A knowledge test for a sport pilot certificate, a private pilot certificate with a powered parachute or weight-shift-control aircraft rating or a flight instructor certificate with a sport pilot rating; and

    (9) A proficiency check for an additional category or class privilege for a sport pilot certificate or a flight instructor certificate with a sport pilot rating.

    (b) A person who holds a flight instructor certificate with a sport pilot rating is authorized, in a form and manner acceptable to the Administrator, to:

    (1) Accept an application for a student pilot certificate or, for an applicant who holds a pilot certificate (other than a student pilot certificate) issued under part 61 of this chapter and meets the flight review requirements specified in §61.56, a remote pilot certificate with a small UAS rating;

    (2) Verify the identity of the applicant; and

    (3) Verify that an applicant for a student pilot certificate meets the eligibility requirements in §61.83.
     
  37. Craigd31

    Craigd31 Pre-Flight

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    Based on #6, in order to accurately answer the original question, might it depend on what type of aircraft the private pilot intends to fly (what operating privileges the pilot wants to exercise)?

    If the private pilot only intends to exercise the operating privileges of a sport pilot (fly LSA with a driver's license), the answer might be yes?

    If that same private pilot then wanted to go fly a non-LSA SEL aircraft, maybe using BasicMed, that pilot would then need to complete another flight review with flight instructor certificated under subpart H of part 61, even if she/he was still within the 2 year window of the sport CFI flight review?
     
  38. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Final Approach

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    It doesn’t matter what certificate or operating privilege the pilot plans to use. A flight review is a flight review, and applies to all privileges held by the pilot regardless of what aircraft was used or what instructor privilege signed it off. #6 simply means he can’t give a flight review in an aircraft not covered by his instructor certificate.
     
  39. Craigd31

    Craigd31 Pre-Flight

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    I'm not sure that's what #6 is implying since the sentence ends with "sport pilot". The aircraft limitation seems to be specified under FAR 61.415.
     
  40. Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe

    Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe Touchdown! Greaser!

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    61.56 no person may act as pilot in command of an aircraft unless, since the beginning of the 24th calendar month before the month in which that pilot acts as pilot in command, that person has—(1) Accomplished a flight review given in an aircraft for which that pilot is rated by an authorized instructor

    If I got a flight review, I got a flight review. No need for separate flight reviews for seaplane vs. land vs. glider vs. sport vs lighter than air vs whatever.