Sport Pilot CFI and BFR

Discussion in 'Pilot Training' started by Dana, Jan 8, 2019.

  1. Half Fast

    Half Fast En-Route

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    Yep.

    Silly, ain’t it? Get a BFR in a hot air balloon and you’re legal to fly a multi engine jet for the next two years assuming at some point in your life you received the rating. But God help you if you ever in your life had a prescription for a week’s worth of Xanax.
     
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  2. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Final Approach

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    See your post #35 for what the Chief Counsel’s office says it’s implying.

    think of it this way...a Sport Pilot instructor can give a “flight review” or “an operating privilege for a sport pilot”.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2020
  3. Craigd31

    Craigd31 Pre-Flight

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    Since you read my post, you know that I agreed that a sport CFI can (or at least should) be able to give a flight review to a PPT since they can give a flight review that satisfies FAR 61.56, according to the data.

    For the sake of debate....what's kinda throwing me off is the the way it's written as "(6) A flight review or operating privilege for a sport pilot;". Is it implying "A flight review for a sport pilot" vs a “flight review” or “an operating privilege for a sport pilot”, as you indicated? I'm probably reading too much into it.

    The previous posting that referenced the AOPA article was from 2008 https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2008/may/flight-training-magazine/easing-the-pain

    From what I can find, the 2008 proposed rule separated out the two:
    https://webcache.googleusercontent....cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-b-1-d

    (5) A flight review;

    (6) An operating privilege or recency-of-experience requirement of this part for a person exercising the privileges of a sport pilot;
     
  4. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Final Approach

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    The reg, like many, is poorly written...it made perfect sense to the tech writer who separated “flight review” and “operating privilege for a Sport Pilot”. Unfortunately it’s not as clearly written to someone who doesn’t know what it says before they read it, but that’s the intent.
     
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  5. Half Fast

    Half Fast En-Route

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    It would be silly that a SP CFI can give instruction toward a PPL but not be able to review the same skills he teaches.

    Not that the FAA doesn’t do silly things....
     
  6. Clip4

    Clip4 Final Approach

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    I agree, but a student pilot seeking a private certificate must complete the 61.107 training from an authorized instructor. A sport pilot instructor is not authorized to give any training for a private. So when someone says “Almost all of my instruction for my PPL was in an LSA from a Sport CFI” I would shut up because his training wasn’t legal.


    Authorized instructor means—

    (i) A person who holds a ground instructor certificate issued under part 61 of this chapter and is in compliance with §61.217, when conducting ground training in accordance with the privileges and limitations of his or her ground instructor certificate;

    (ii) A person who holds a flight instructor certificate issued under part 61 of this chapter and is in compliance with §61.197, when conducting ground training or flight training in accordance with the privileges and limitations of his or her flight instructor certificate; or

    (iii) A person authorized by the Administrator to provide ground training or flight training under part 61, 121, 135, or 142 of this chapter when conducting ground training or flight training in accordance with that authority

    §61.413 What are the privileges of my flight instructor certificate with a sport pilot rating?
    (a) If you hold a flight instructor certificate with a sport pilot rating, you are authorized, within the limits of your certificate and rating, to provide training and endorsements that are required for, and relate to—

    (1) A student pilot seeking a sport pilot certificate;


    61.107 Flight proficiency.

    (a) General. A person who applies for a private pilot certificate must receive and log ground and flight training from an authorized instructor on the areas of operation of this section that apply to the aircraft category and class rating sought.


    61.109 Aeronautical experience.
    (a) For an airplane single-engine rating. Except as provided in paragraph (k) of this section, a person who applies for a private pilot certificate with an airplane category and single-engine class rating must log at least 40 hours of flight time that includes at least 20 hours of flight training from an authorized instructor and 10 hours of solo flight training in the areas of operation listed in §61.107(b)(1) of this part, and the training must include at least—
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2020
  7. Half Fast

    Half Fast En-Route

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    Wrong. The FAA changed that rule in 2018.
    https://rodmachado.com/blogs/learning-to-fly/recent-changes-to-part-61-and-why-they-are-fantastic

    https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/FR-2018-06-27/pdf/2018-12800.pdf

    Try to keep up.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2020
  8. Clip4

    Clip4 Final Approach

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    I said “ a student pilot seeking a private certificate must complete the 61.107 training from an authorized instructor”. That has not changed and is still true today. Read this from first link you posted.

    Finally we come to the BIGGEST and the BEST change of all. The FAA now allows all flight training time received from a sport pilot instructor to apply toward meeting the flight time requirements for the recreational or private pilot certificate. NOTE: The only catch is (and I'm eating crow here because I didn't catch this when I originally wrote this post) the applicant applying that flight time to the private pilot certificate must already have a sport pilot certificate. Said another way, you can apply sport pilot flight time to a private pilot certificate only if you've first earned a sport pilot certificate.

     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2020
  9. Half Fast

    Half Fast En-Route

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    You wrote:

    So when someone says “Almost all of my instruction for my PPL was in an LSA from a Sport CFI” I would shut up because his training wasn’t legal.
    That implies my training wasn’t legal. You’re wrong.

    I completed my SP ticket a few years ago. When I upgraded to Private, I only needed a few hours from a full CFI in addition to the training I received from a SP CFI.

    Refer to 61.109(l).
     
  10. Half Fast

    Half Fast En-Route

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    From 61.109(l):

    (l) Permitted credit for flight training received from a flight instructor with a sport pilot rating. The holder of a sport pilot certificate may credit flight training received from a flight instructor with a sport pilot rating toward the aeronautical experiencerequirements of this section if the following conditions are met:

    (1) The flight training was accomplished in the same category and class of aircraft for which the rating is sought;
    .
    .
    .
     
  11. Clip4

    Clip4 Final Approach

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    I agree, your sport pilot training counted, except none of your training for the private was from a sport CFI. You were an up grade.

    Had you decided 1/2 way thru your sport training with an SP CFI, you wanted a private instead, you start at zero instructional hours. All the hours for a student to private must from a full CFI.
    Also all hours from a SP to private must be from a full CFI.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2020
  12. Half Fast

    Half Fast En-Route

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    Agreed. Which is a pretty stupid rule, when you think about it.

    Imagine me and another student both taking the same lessons from a Sport CFI. We both decide to do Private. I take and pass a SP checkride from a Sport DPE, and now my training counts toward Private. He doesn’t do a checkride, and he has to start over from scratch, even though his training is identical to mine.

    I don’t know how the FAA comes up with this stuff.
     
  13. Clip4

    Clip4 Final Approach

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    That what I said when FAA allowed the SP CFI certificate.
     
  14. Half Fast

    Half Fast En-Route

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    I can’t see that the SP CFI cert has caused any problems. Seems to be working pretty well as far as I can tell.
     
  15. Daniel Gervae

    Daniel Gervae Filing Flight Plan

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    I still think it’s funny that I have to do the same exact CFI refresher as a CFII every two years...the exact same one. I’m a Private Pilot who just thought it would be fun to study my butt off, take a bunch of flight training, 2 written tests, and a check ride with a DPE to get this CFI -SP so I could teach some friends to fly. I’ve been a Private Pilot for 35 years, thousands of hours flying my cub and my Taylorcraft on wheels, floats, and skis...I hope my ability to give a BFR in a Cub is as legit as a 20 yr old CFII giving one in a 150.....I accept the limitation of aircraft...I should only be able to instruct under that limitation...but if a ATP wants a bfr in my J3...he has the right to get it in the J3... and I’m certainly qualified to give it...that’s why the FAA interprets it the way they do. It’s legit. Hopefully it stays that way. Make no mistake, the training to get a CFI Sp is very thorough and you come away a real instructor....
     
  16. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Final Approach

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    And quite frankly, the average CFI-SP is probably better for VFR training in some ways than the CFI-A, and especially the average CFI-I.
     
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  17. Clip4

    Clip4 Final Approach

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    Your training may have been very thorough, not all CFI training is. That includes both full and SP CFIs.
     
  18. GREGG LUDWIG

    GREGG LUDWIG Filing Flight Plan

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    “Also all hours from SP to private must be from a full CFI”
    That comment is incorrect. See 61.109I as previously posted.

    (l) Permitted credit for flight training received from a flight instructor with a sport pilot rating. The holder of a sport pilot certificate may credit flight training received from a flight instructor with a sport pilot rating toward the aeronautical experience requirements of this section if the following conditions are met:

    (1) The flight training was accomplished in the same category and class of aircraft for which the rating is sought;

    (2) The flight instructor with a sport pilot rating was authorized to provide the flight training; and

    (3) The flight training included either—

    (i) Training on areas of operation that are required for both a sport pilot certificate and a private pilot certificate; or

    (ii) For airplanes with a VH greater than 87 knots CAS, training on the control and maneuvering of an airplane solely by reference to the flight instruments, including straight and level flight, turns, descents, climbs, use of radio aids, and ATC directives, provided the training was received from a flight instructor with a sport pilot rating who holds an endorsement required by §61.412(c).
     
  19. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Touchdown! Greaser!

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    The refresher is mostly information which would be valuable instructing in anything. I don't think it's particularly funny to hold any flight instructor, regardless of instructor ratings, to similar standards of knowledge and professionalism. Here's the current course content for the AOPA ASF FIRC:

    1. Navigating in the 21st Century: Pilotage to Global Positioning System (GPS): Technically Advanced Aircraft (TAA) and Automation
    2. Security Related Special Use Airspace: What’s Going on Where and How to Stay Clear
    3. Transportation Security Administration (TSA): What Flight Instructors Have to Know to Stay Out of Trouble
    4. How to Teach Effectively and Build a Culture of Safety in Your Students and Workplace
    5. Safety Trends In GA: How CFIs Can Directly Contribute to Aviation Safety
    6. Pilot Deviations (PD): Their Causes and How to Teach Your Students to Plan Ahead to Avoid Them
    7. How to Make the Best Use of the FAA Safety Team (FAASTeam) and the Pilot Proficiency Program (WINGS) in Your Program of Instruction
    8. Regulatory, Policy, and Publications Changes and Updates
    9. How to Give an Effective and Useful Instrument Proficiency Check (IPC) and Flight Review
    10. Ethics and Professionalism in the Role of the Flight Instructor
    11. Loss of Control (LOC) Accidents​

    Others may not be exactly the same but are very similar. With the exception of the one module dealing with IFR flight, which of those are relevant to instructors in a 152 or a Bonanza that are irrelevant to you?
     
  20. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Final Approach

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    One can also renew by taking a check ride...that should keep things more relevant if one is worried about learning too much.
     
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  21. Clip4

    Clip4 Final Approach

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    I believe you misunderstood my post. Once a sport pilot certificate has been issued, the LS CFI is not authorized to give instruction required for the private certificate.


    61.413 What are the privileges of my flight instructor certificate with a sport pilot rating?
    (a) If you hold a flight instructor certificate with a sport pilot rating, you are authorized, within the limits of your certificate and rating, to provide training and endorsements that are required for, and relate to—

    (1) A student pilot seeking a sport pilot certificate;

    (2) A sport pilot certificate;

    (3) A flight instructor certificate with a sport pilot rating;

    (4) A powered parachute or weight-shift-control aircraft rating;

    (5) Sport pilot privileges;

    (6) A flight review or operating privilege for a sport pilot;

    (7) A practical test for a sport pilot certificate, a private pilot certificate with a powered parachute or weight-shift-control aircraft rating or a flight instructor certificate with a sport pilot rating;

    (8) A knowledge test for a sport pilot certificate, a private pilot certificate with a powered parachute or weight-shift-control aircraft rating or a flight instructor certificate with a sport pilot rating; and

    (9) A proficiency check for an additional category or class privilege for a sport pilot certificate or a flight instructor certificate with a sport pilot rating.

    (b) A person who holds a flight instructor certificate with a sport pilot rating is authorized, in a form and manner acceptable to the Administrator, to:

    (1) Accept an application for a student pilot certificate or, for an applicant who holds a pilot certificate (other than a student pilot certificate) issued under part 61 of this chapter and meets the flight review requirements specified in §61.56, a remote pilot certificate with a small UAS rating;

    (2) Verify the identity of the applicant; and

    (3) Verify that an applicant for a student pilot certificate meets the eligibility requirements in §61.83.
     
  22. Daniel Gervae

    Daniel Gervae Filing Flight Plan

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    I only meant it in the context of this discussion....I take the same refresher and maintain my skills but time training with me only counts if the student first passed the SP check ride...I’m every bit as skilled at flying and training students in a J3 as most “real” CFIs they just have a commercial and instrument rating ....I do not...I am a good cub pilot though and can teach good airmanship....rule are rules though. I’m still glad I went and got the CFI-SP after 30 yrs as a Private Pilot...it got some guys going on aviation that would not have otherwise done it....since I don’t charge if we use their plane.