Spin training during primary?

Mike Smith

Mike Smith

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What is the collective thoughts on spin training. Can my CFI demonstrate spins if I ask him to? I know it isn't in the PTS, but in my newbie exuberance I think I want to know how to recovery from a spin.
 
mikeinbama said:
What is the collective thoughts on spin training. Can my CFI demonstrate spins if I ask him to? I know it isn't in the PTS, but in my newbie exuberance I think I want to know how to recovery from a spin.
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Depends on the airplane. I did lots of them.
 
Find an instructor who is comfortable teaching spins,also make sure the airplane is rated for spin training. You might want to get your ppl ,then take a course in upset and spin recovery.
 
mikeinbama said:
What is the collective thoughts on spin training. Can my CFI demonstrate spins if I ask him to? I know it isn't in the PTS, but in my newbie exuberance I think I want to know how to recovery from a spin.
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CFIs have had about as much spin training as you. Little to none. Wait till you get your PP, then get it from a M-CFI-A... http://tinyurl.com/ov5g6vp
 
timwinters said:
That's a broad brush.
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Absolutely!..however, it is a fair warning. Probably, most younger CFIs have not done things outside of the "box" which is the PTS.
...however, keep trying,..you will find someone who is eager to get outta the box and join the fun...
 
nosehair said:
Absolutely!..however, it is a fair warning. Probably, most younger CFIs have not done things outside of the "box" which is the PTS.
...however, keep trying,..you will find someone who is eager to get outta the box and join the fun...
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Agree somewhat, don't let the AGE of the CFI make your decision for you.
A 27 year old CFI that has only taught for two years, may have done more spins than the 50 year old guy that has taught for years.
See the reaction when you ask about it.
IMHO, the cfi that says LETS GO, impresses me more than the guy that has "that look" on their face about it.
 
mikeinbama said:
What is the collective thoughts on spin training. Can my CFI demonstrate spins if I ask him to? I know it isn't in the PTS, but in my newbie exuberance I think I want to know how to recovery from a spin.
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Yes, you should do two turns to a heading each way. It won't take long to master it, it's like skydiving, the first shock is a biggie, but after that you get used to the acceleration and the reality is it's pretty easy to do. Three tries you'll have it fine. Then you never have to worry about a spin again because you will recognize and recover it confidently at the inception with nearly no loss. It's the wing tuck shock factor of the first time that will kill you if the first time you get it is down low. Once you know to recover with rudder, the tuck never develops to a spin.
 
Yeah go for it, I had my spin endorsement (that one that allows me to teach spins) before I had my PPL.

Find an instructor that's proficient in spins. Recommend you look at aerobatic schools. Then make sure the airplane is certified for aerobatics. If the airplane is certified, yet is old (80s and earlier), you may not want to use it for spins because of the higher stress loads when pulling out...don't want to rip your wings off.
 
Henning said:
...you get used to the acceleration.
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If you want to delay getting used to the acceleration hold the yoke (?) all the way back in the spin and watch the airspeed indicator as you spin. In small Cessnas it won't change no matter how many turns you do. Was plenty surprised when a CFI showed me this. But you have to let go and push to get out of the spin so don't get too comfortable!
 
My instructor said something like this right before I soloed...

CFI: OK, you've learned how to get the airplane down without killing yourself. Great. Now I want to show you what happens when you get into a cross-controlled stall.

Me: A spin happens.

CFI: Right. The FAA says we're not supposed to do intentional spins. So we're going to go do an unintentional spin.

Me: oh #$%*... OK

We went up and did a one turn spin. I said "that was amazing!" He said "wanna do another one?" I said no. :D

So we did unusual attitudes under the hood instead and then an engine-out drill descending into the west TX heat. That was the only time I almost hurled during my training.

Anyway, it was a C152 Aerobat and it was really hard to make it spin. I recall he had to change direction and use a little aileron. Those things are stable, man.

Anyway, no harm in it if your instructor is proficient.
 
Thanks for the input everyone. I have every confidence in my instructor, he is highly thought of in the local aviation community as the go-to instructor for most everything flying. IR, COMM, tailwheel, he even has a seaplane rating. He is a retired military pilot and has flown pretty much everything. I trust him completely. I will have to see if the plane I'm flying is certified, it's a PA28-151, 76 model I believe. I am gonna ask him about it. I only have about 8 hours now, I assume later in training would be better?
 
mikeinbama said:
Thanks for the input everyone. I have every confidence in my instructor, he is highly thought of in the local aviation community as the go-to instructor for most everything flying. IR, COMM, tailwheel, he even has a seaplane rating. He is a retired military pilot and has flown pretty much everything. I trust him completely. I will have to see if the plane I'm flying is certified, it's a PA28-151, 76 model I believe. I am gonna ask him about it. I only have about 8 hours now, I assume later in training would be better?
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You have a great attitude. You're gonna have fun!
Keep it up.:yes:
 
mikeinbama said:
What is the collective thoughts on spin training. Can my CFI demonstrate spins if I ask him to? I know it isn't in the PTS, but in my newbie exuberance I think I want to know how to recovery from a spin.
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I usually teach them before solo if the student so desires and the plane is certified for them. They're fun!
 
petrolero said:
My instructor said something like this right before I soloed...

CFI: OK, you've learned how to get the airplane down without killing yourself. Great. Now I want to show you what happens when you get into a cross-controlled stall.

Me: A spin happens.

CFI: Right. The FAA says we're not supposed to do intentional spins. So we're going to go do an unintentional spin.

Me: oh #$%*... OK

We went up and did a one turn spin. I said "that was amazing!" He said "wanna do another one?" I said no. :D

So we did unusual attitudes under the hood instead and then an engine-out drill descending into the west TX heat. That was the only time I almost hurled during my training.

Anyway, it was a C152 Aerobat and it was really hard to make it spin. I recall he had to change direction and use a little aileron. Those things are stable, man.

Anyway, no harm in it if your instructor is proficient.
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I was introduced on my second flight when I didn't hold right rudder into a departure stall lol. "Now lets talk about spins, we just got in one..." Lol we did a few more, it was good.
 
My instructor just talked about spin awareness. I'm excited about getting my spin endorsement when I start the CFI training!
 
Yes, you can spin. The question is, can you get OUT of a spin?

I did them in a Cessna 150. My instructor liked doing them. I really didn't know. I think the FBO I went to encouraged them.

It depends on the instructor, plane etc.
 
The other one to do is Falling Leaf stalls because what that basically is is stopping spins just as they are trying to break as you ride a stall down. You balance the plane by catching the wing with the rudder just as it starts dropping and hold the ailerons level. This is a great practice skill if you want to learn the rudder, much more effective than Tailwheel training. Once you master a Falling Leaf and can hold the stall for 3000', flying tail wheels will be no worries.
 
Spin training used to be mandatory for a ppl. Disappeared over the years and today are looked upon as a big deal. Most of this comes from the fact that most CFI's today are uncomfortable doing them ( scared) or never have done one, or did one and won't do another. It they are done correctly it puts NO stress on the airplane either while doing it or pulling out at the bottom. Neither does a loop.
 
Henning said:
The other one to do is Falling Leaf stalls because what that basically is is stopping spins just as they are trying to break as you ride a stall down. You balance the plane by catching the wing with the rudder just as it starts dropping and hold the ailerons level. This is a great practice skill if you want to learn the rudder, much more effective than Tailwheel training. Once you master a Falling Leaf and can hold the stall for 3000', flying tail wheels will be no worries.
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:yeahthat:
 
I offer my students a spin ride in an 8KCAB as an optional sortie. For all my students, I make them do a no-rudder power on stall and I take the airplane just as the wing-over happens.
 
hook_dupin said:
I offer my students a spin ride in an 8KCAB as an optional sortie. For all my students, I make them do a no-rudder power on stall and I take the airplane just as the wing-over happens.
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That really doesn't get it. One used to have to recover from the spin , recovering on a point, or do it again. This was in an 85 champ. It puts little or no stress on the plane as you are STALLED. Looking thru the windshield, straight down at the ground makes a big impression to avoid it near the ground. Nothin like doin it!
 
The first endorsement I got was a precision spin endorsement within my first 5hrs. I would highly recommend finding a comfortable CFI (not a kid with all his time in 172's who's never cranked a plane around) and getting that endorsement. So many fatalities are from incipient spins on a base to final turn it's extremely valuable to know what onset feels like in the seat of your pants, how to recover quickly and ultimately how to avoid that low altitude spin entry that kills so many in-experienced pilots. If you can find someone with a Champ, Cub or Citabria jump on it! Taildraggers are the best for that kind of training in my opinion.

Besides spins are fun when practiced safely in a certified plane.


Greetings one and all forum newb here:cheerswine::cheerswine:
 
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Doesn't matter, anything that allows spins in the POH is good if you load for it correctly. Spins are not tough on airplanes, Falling Leaf stalls are not tough on airplanes. You can do both in most 172s.
 
Jimmy cooper said:
That really doesn't get it. One used to have to recover from the spin , recovering on a point, or do it again. This was in an 85 champ. It puts little or no stress on the plane as you are STALLED. Looking thru the windshield, straight down at the ground makes a big impression to avoid it near the ground. Nothin like doin it!
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Henning said:
Doesn't matter, anything that allows spins in the POH is good if you load for it correctly. Spins are not tough on airplanes, Falling Leaf stalls are not tough on airplanes. You can do both in most 172s.
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Spins aren't tough on planes, pulling out of a spin can be tough.
 
I must admit that I'm a flying chicken...

I had a conversation with my first instructor that I needed to know the "envelop" that the aircraft we were flying flew - a DA 20 (Diamond Katana). My instructor didn't say much but did an interesting and thorough preflight without saying too much. After being given the "squawk VFR, frequency change approved" by departure, my instructor said "take me up to 8000'". So I did. Then he said "My airplane". We slowed down.

The next thing I remember is looking "up" to see the little town of Carlisle Arkansas! (One wing stalled and we were spinning..)

That day really helped me understand that if you fly the airplane according to the POH, the wings will remain attached to the aircraft. That was in 2005/6 (don't remember the exact day). Very appreciative.

Early this year, I was in the same place with flying. I have a very nice Vintage Bonanza, but I didm't trust it much. The aircraft is 66 years old and known as the "forked tail doctor killer". Just saying I wasn't a doctor just wasn't doing it. I finally found a BPPP (Beech instructor) to work with. His wife had me pegged from the get-go (also a BPPP instructor). The best thing he did for me was lazy 8s, Chandelles and accelerated stalls. It took two times to let my head settle a little in with the reality that those old wings were not coming off the aircraft..

So what next? IFR training is BORING! I SO want to learn how to do lazy 8's and the rest of the approved maneuvers in the Bonanza... (But I'm getting close on the IR rating and really need to complete..)

I'm not sure I will be the guy to do a lot of acro, but knowing what your aircraft will do when you have family on board is pretty important.

Signed: Flying chicken.
 
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CTLSi said:
CFIs have had about as much spin training as you. Little to none. Wait till you get your PP, then get it from a M-CFI-A... http://tinyurl.com/ov5g6vp
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There is nothing in the Master CFI standards requiring any spin training beyond that required for initial basic CFI-Airplane certification, so there's no reason to think any MCFI is better than any non-Master CFI at giving spin training.
 
Presuming plane and CFI are up to it GREAT IDEA :yes:

My instructor did spins pre-solo, really takes the fear out and replaces it with knowledge.


If you can't get spins in, a good deep falling leaf stall is a close second
 
MachFly said:
Spins aren't tough on planes, pulling out of a spin can be tough.
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Unless a pilot has had some aerobatic training, my experience is they won't pull over 2G before they start ****ting their britches, you can't get most of them to pull for a 60° steep turn. I doubt they're gonna pull 3.8 or anywhere near it.:lol:
 
Henning said:
Unless a pilot has had some aerobatic training, my experience is they won't pull over 2G before they start ****ting their britches, you can't get most of them to pull for a 60° steep turn. I doubt they're gonna pull 3.8 or anywhere near it.:lol:
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You have a point.
My concern is an older plane will no longer be able to pull the same 3.8Gs due to fatigue and maybe corrosion, so I'd be very careful doing 2Gs on an old plane. Especially a plane who's history I'm not familiar with.
 
MachFly said:
You have a point.
My concern is an older plane will no longer be able to pull the same 3.8Gs due to fatigue and maybe corrosion, so I'd be very careful doing 2Gs on an old plane. Especially a plane who's history I'm not familiar with.
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Even when they mess up, if the power is off and there is more than 1500' beneath the plane, there is no real scenario where I see much more than 1.8. You're at stall speed, during recovery you need to accelerate just to get to flying speed. If a plane that is rated for spins passes my preflight, I'm not afraid to spin it. If it breaks it was my turn.;)
 
Henning said:
Even when they mess up, if the power is off and there is more than 1500' beneath the plane, there is no real scenario where I see much more than 1.8. You're at stall speed, during recovery you need to accelerate just to get to flying speed. If a plane that is rated for spins passes my preflight, I'm not afraid to spin it. If it breaks it was my turn.;)
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You have to realize that during the initial flight training it's very possible for the student to pull a lot more Gs then needed, by accident or whatever. Yes it's unlikely that the student will just pull really hard and casually endure 6Gs, what is possible is for the student to keep the power in or take too much altitude to recover for you to need to pull extra Gs. What I'm saying is that you want to have some room for error, and a good wing spar is one of those things.

You can't inspect the wing spar in the preflight, so the preflight really shouldn't tell you much.
 
MachFly said:
You have a point.
My concern is an older plane will no longer be able to pull the same 3.8Gs due to fatigue and maybe corrosion, so I'd be very careful doing 2Gs on an old plane. Especially a plane who's history I'm not familiar with.
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While you have a valid point generally, 3.8 g's is the Normal limit, and I don't think there are any planes certified for intentional spins in the Normal category. I think they would all be at least in Utility category with a positive g limit of 4.4.
 
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