Solo XC CFI Requirements

[ripnet]

Hello,

My CFI and I are having a disagreement about the regs, and I thought I'd run this by the experienced members here.

I'm a student, ready for my XC solo. My CFI insists that, according to regulation, he must fly the route with me, and that I receive training at each of the airports along the way. In the FAR, I've found that for the "less than 25" and "between 25-50" solos, that is true. But I don't see anything about him having to pre-fly the "long XC" with me in either 61.93 or 61.87.

It looks to me that he only needs to: approve of my planning, approve of the weather, determine that I'm a competent pilot to do the solo, and make sure I have the appropriate endorsements. 61.93(d)

Now, if he wants to fly the route with me, great; I'm always up for more learning. Am I missing something in the regs?

 

[MAKG1]

It seems conventional to pre-fly the first solo cross country as dual, but not the "long" one. No, the regs do not require it. The flight school might.

Your instructor might need that to determine that you're competent to solo. That is, observe you finding the airport, handling flight following, and all the other stuff that goes with it.

 

[TommyG]

You are right, he is wrong.

 

[AggieMike88]

Your instructor might need that to determine that you're competent to solo. That is, observe you finding the airport, handling flight following, and all the other stuff that goes with it.

I find this a reasonable practice.

For my solo XC's it helped to have him along at first to point out various landmarks and confirm my pilotage plan was spot on.

Then when I did the flight solo, I was more comfortable and enjoyed the experience more.

 

[frfly172]

Not a good thing when you disagree with you CFI ,it might be he thinks you are over confident about your planning and flying skills. It is his ticket on the line when he signs you off. Good luck.

 

[jordane93]

Nothing in the regs says he has to fly the route. All he has to do is review your planning. It's probably a good idea that he accompany you on at least the first one

 

[ripnet]

Thanks all. As I said I'm super willing to have him accompany me on the first one, this was just an exercise in regulation reading.

He's also a new CFI (I was his first solo), so I'm happy to do these exercises with him; I learn a lot too. Not to mention, I would love to be a CFI someday, and these are some of the things I'll need to learn.

 

[DGlaeser]

My process is the first solo XC is the same route as a (typically the first) dual XC. As noted already, it is a low risk confidence builder.
After that I want students to go to airports they have NOT been to yet! Going to places you've already been doesn't prove much

 

[mscard88]

After an initial dual XC (more if needed of course) and solo XC sign off, the student does the remaining XC solo. Part 61 spells it out. Again, unless your CFI feels you need more dual you're on your own. It's a confidence builder too. I have NEVER done the 'long XC' dual with any of my students.

edit: solo dual

 

[RussR]

I do a dual XC training flight, working with the student through the flight planning, wind correction, how to navigate, checkpoints, all that stuff.

Then they go fly their solo cross country flight, usually at least two, but usually all to airports they've never been to before. Why do I need to have "flown the route" with them? They've already been with me to other "new" airports, so they know how to determine runways in use and all that stuff. There's a lot of "XC" value in normal training flights that might only go to an airport 10 nm away (and therefore not count as actual XC).

If the student gets lost, well, that's part of learning, right? They have to figure it out, get unlost, and then proceed on. Yes, I give them the tools to do this before they go.

The XC requirements for Private Pilot are laughably inadequate IMO. Before 1997, there was a lot more emphasis placed on this most important skill that is fundamental to one of the main reasons to get a PP is the first place - to travel. It was 10 hours of solo XC (instead of just 5), with at least one 300nm XC in there. I would support a return to that requirement.

After an initial solo dual XC (more if needed of course) and solo XC sign off, the student does the remaining XC solo. Part 61 spells it out. Again, unless our CFI feels you need more dual you're on your own. It's a confidence builder too. I have NEVER done the 'long XC' dual with any of my students.

What do you mean by "solo dual"? Or was that a typo?

 

[mscard88]

I do a dual XC training flight, working with the student through the flight planning, wind correction, how to navigate, checkpoints, all that stuff.

Then they go fly their solo cross country flight, usually at least two, but usually all to airports they've never been to before. Why do I need to have "flown the route" with them? They've already been with me to other "new" airports, so they know how to determine runways in use and all that stuff. There's a lot of "XC" value in normal training flights that might only go to an airport 10 nm away (and therefore not count as actual XC).

If the student gets lost, well, that's part of learning, right? They have to figure it out, get unlost, and then proceed on. Yes, I give them the tools to do this before they go.

The XC requirements for Private Pilot are laughably inadequate IMO. Before 1997, there was a lot more emphasis placed on this most important skill that is fundamental to one of the main reasons to get a PP is the first place - to travel. It was 10 hours of solo XC (instead of just 5), with at least one 300nm XC in there. I would support a return to that requirement.



What do you mean by "solo dual"? Or was that a typo?

Typo, and I too agree the 300NM XC should be returned.

 

[James331]

I've always preflown the XCs with student PPL pilots, works for the hours required and just a good idea.

 

[dmspilot]

Sorry for the thread hijack, but it is well known how difficult CFI checkrides are, so why are there so many instructors confused about such topics? Sometimes it seems the current system is a failure.

 

[jordane93]

Sorry for the thread hijack, but it is well known how difficult CFI checkrides are, so why are there so many instructors confused about such topics? Sometimes it seems the current system is a failure.

Instructors are humans too. We make mistakes and certainly do not know everything. Not even close to everything.

 

[mscard88]

Instructors are humans too. We make mistakes and certainly do not know everything. Not even close to everything.

Completely agree, and I've been a CFI since '78.

 

[dmspilot]

Instructors are humans too. We make mistakes and certainly do not know everything. Not even close to everything.

Of course. But solo XC requirements seem pretty basic.

 

[Captain]

Especially when the student raises the question why wouldn't the CFI go back to the book and see that he's wrong? Super especially since he's new?

I can see him saying in the discussion about it, "the regs don't require it but I'd feel better..." But that didn't happen here.

 

[RussR]

I've always preflown the XCs with student PPL pilots, works for the hours required and just a good idea.

I'm just not understanding this (from you and others) - why is dry running the first solo XC such a good idea?

 

[MAKG1]

I'm just not understanding this (from you and others) - why is dry running the first solo XC such a good idea?

Because he's never done it before. It gives the instructor a chance to evaluate what would have happened if that cross country had been solo.

I think it could be done almost as well to a different airport, but both airports and routes have personalities and there is some value to using the same one.

For the short XC only. For the long one, he really does need to be on his own.

 

[ja_user]

Sorry for the thread hijack, but it is well known how difficult CFI checkrides are, so why are there so many instructors confused about such topics? Sometimes it seems the current system is a failure.

There are a lot of regs and ratings a CFI could be teaching, it is easy to get confused occasionally. Better to look things up. Now this one, I can't see myself getting confused on.

But there is a requirement for the CFI to provide instruction on airports that the student is allowed to go to, including instruction at each.. Doesn't pertain to the Long XC< but it could have been a source of confusion, or simply how the CFI's instructor did it????

 

[James331]

Because he's never done it before. It gives the instructor a chance to evaluate what would have happened if that cross country had been solo.

I think it could be done almost as well to a different airport, but both airports and routes have personalities and there is some value to using the same one.

For the short XC only. For the long one, he really does need to be on his own.

Exactly, I'd rather see how they handle it under controlled conditions first, my ticket my prerogative.

Plus I'll toss in some diversions and distractions on the way back, normally a simulated engine failure too.
I haven't received any complaints and haven't had anyone majorly screw up on their solo XCs.

Sorry for the thread hijack, but it is well known how difficult CFI checkrides are, so why are there so many instructors confused about such topics? Sometimes it seems the current system is a failure.

Compared to all the other systems, our actually works very well without being too overbearing.

 

[dmspilot]

I'm just not understanding this (from you and others) - why is dry running the first solo XC such a good idea?

You haven't been a CFI, have you? The dry run is helpful, but different students are different. Some might not need it, others will need to do it multiple times.

 

[dmspilot]

Compared to all the other systems, our actually works very well without being too overbearing.

What other systems? I'm talking about the method we train and test CFIs, nothing more.

 

[NJP_MAN]

, or simply how the CFI's instructor did it????

I think this is at play quite a bit of the time. Maybe the instructor trained at a place that required this as an SOP but took it as regulatory.

 

[RussR]

You haven't been a CFI, have you? The dry run is helpful, but different students are different. Some might not need it, others will need to do it multiple times.

Hah! Nice. I think it's pretty clear from my other posts in this thread that I am a CFI. Am active and have been for several years.

I liked your pre-edit comment about your students getting lost in the traffic pattern better.

 

[dmspilot]

Hah! Nice. I think it's pretty clear from my other posts in this thread that I am a CFI. Am active and have been for several years.

I liked your pre-edit comment about your students getting lost in the traffic pattern better.

My bad.

So you never do dry runs with your students? Inquiring minds want to know.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Not a good thing when you disagree with you CFI ,it might be he thinks you are over confident about your planning and flying skills. It is his ticket on the line when he signs you off. Good luck.

Even a worse thing for a CFI to claim a rule exists when it doesn't.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I'm just not understanding this (from you and others) - why is dry running the first solo XC such a good idea?

The primary reason is that it installs an additional layer of confidence in both instructor and student. That's not limited to student pilots. Haven't you noticed that familiar routes are less taxing than unfamiliar ones? I know I flew the Denver to Santa Fe ~250 NM flight so often VFR that I considered it a local flight.

Nothing more complicated than that.

My own first solo xc included one leg from my dual (which I ended up not flying due to a radio failure). And I have given my students the option of doing something similar as a variation on the theme.

 

[RussR]

It's interesting as I read this thread that there seem to be two general schools of thought on the solo cross countries:

1. The solo cross countries are a maneuver, like steep turns, that should be drilled on until the student gets it correct. Just as a steep turn will be repeated with a CFI many times until the student is proficient, a cross country from AAA-BBB-CCC-AAA may need to be repeated with a CFI until the student is proficient enough to do it on their own.

2. The solo cross countries are a culmination of everything the student has learned before. They are more of a "test" involving skills the student has already gained, the successful completion of which is indicated by their successfully having made it back to the home airport.

Obviously I'm in the second camp.

By the time I'm getting to the XC part of a student's training, they have already been with me to multiple other airports nearby. They will even have been signed off to fly to several, and having been doing so themselves for at least a few flights. So the whole "getting from one airport to another" concepts are not new. They know how to find the airport, when to switch frequencies, get weather, enter the pattern, all that stuff that doesn't depend on how long the flight is, XC or not.

When we start the XC phase, I will have them plan a dual XC, working with them on it. So we fly from AAA-BBB-AAA. If that doesn't go well, we might do another one - but not to the same airport: AAA-CCC-AAA. Once they're ready, I'll have them plan a different flight. AAA-DDD-AAA. If it's going to be the "three point XC" (I have trouble calling 150nm the "long" XC), I may let them use one of the airports they've been to already, but maybe not, so AAA-BBB-EEE-AAA is an option - or maybe the reverse, so they're coming at BBB from a different direction than they did with me.

Often I will let them pick what airports they want to go to (obviously with my approval) - this forces them to evaluate why or why not a given airport may be suitable, rather than me just telling them.

Yes, I have done complete "dry runs" in the past - but I didn't like it and don't do it any more. I find that doing things this way is MORE of a confidence builder. They already have the skills to navigate, I've made sure of that, why not let them go spread their wings? That's what they are getting the training for anyway.

I had one of my students last week fly his "long" solo XC. I asked him where he wanted to go. He picked a route that was a total of 342 nm, since it was somewhere he was likely to fly often after his checkride. I told him, no problem, just show me your plan. He did, I signed him off, and he flew it. Took about 4 hours and involved Class C and D airspace, flight following with Center, pilotage, VOR and GPS navigation, and more - he even stopped and got fuel just to be safe. Tell me THAT wasn't a great confidence builder for him!

I figure the greater the number of airports a student has been to by himself, the better they will be prepared both for the checkride and flying after that. So I try to maximize that in the limited number of flights available ("realistically" available without holding them back, I mean).

 

[jordane93]

For their first ever X country I'll fly it with my student. Usually it's FRG to POU. After that I give them a choice of where they want to solo, review their planning, and cut them loose.

 

[midlifeflyer]

It's interesting as I read this thread that there seem to be two general schools of thought on the solo cross countries:

1. The solo cross countries are a maneuver, like steep turns, that should be drilled on until the student gets it correct. Just as a steep turn will be repeated with a CFI many times until the student is proficient, a cross country from AAA-BBB-CCC-AAA may need to be repeated with a CFI until the student is proficient enough to do it on their own.

2. The solo cross countries are a culmination of everything the student has learned before. They are more of a "test" involving skills the student has already gained, the successful completion of which is indicated by their successfully having made it back to the home airport.

That's a very nice spin to make your biased opinion seem the only reasonable one and anyone else's ridiculous. But like spin in politics or biased "journalism," it disregards reality. Thought of running for office or starting a newsblog?

 

[James331]

It's interesting as I read this thread that there seem to be two general schools of thought on the solo cross countries:

1. The solo cross countries are a maneuver, like steep turns, that should be drilled on until the student gets it correct. Just as a steep turn will be repeated with a CFI many times until the student is proficient, a cross country from AAA-BBB-CCC-AAA may need to be repeated with a CFI until the student is proficient enough to do it on their own.

2. The solo cross countries are a culmination of everything the student has learned before. They are more of a "test" involving skills the student has already gained, the successful completion of which is indicated by their successfully having made it back to the home airport.

Obviously I'm in the second camp.

Uhh, yeah, you train till you're proficient on EVERYTHING, XCs ain't special, dual to solo to checkride.

The XCs portion is only a culmination of training after they have been trained on it, this obviously involves both the ground and in the air aspect of flying a XC.


Maybe I should just discuss stalls, practice slow flight, set them loose solo and tell them to try a few stalls solo for the first time, culmination of everything and all.

 

[RussR]

That's a very nice spin to make your biased opinion seem the only reasonable one and anyone else's ridiculous. But like spin in politics or biased "journalism," it disregards reality. Thought of running for office or starting a newsblog?

Wow Mark, I really didn't intend it to be biased and confrontational, so if I gave that impression I apologize. I actually was trying to fairly spell out what I thought were the fundamental differences in the approach to XC training. One is "task" based, one is "results" based. I thought that was a pretty fair comparison, and I didn't think I was snarky or anything in my "method 1". I prefer "method 2" but I didn't say that "method 1" is wrong, just it's not what I do. I bet we also don't teach steep turns exactly the same way, or use the same syllabus, and that's okay too.

Uhh, yeah, you train till you're proficient on EVERYTHING, XCs ain't special, dual to solo to checkride.

The XCs portion is only a culmination of training after they have been trained on it, this obviously involves both the ground and in the air aspect of flying a XC.


Maybe I should just discuss stalls, practice slow flight, set them loose solo and tell them to try a few stalls solo for the first time, culmination of everything and all.

Notice, if you read my whole post, that I DO conduct XC training with them - as much as is needed. I don't just "talk" about it then send them on their way - where did you get that idea? I simply don't practice fly the same course with them that they will fly solo. I still make sure they're competent at the broader level of "XC flying", of course, then send them off.

 

[dmspilot]

It's interesting as I read this thread that there seem to be two general schools of thought on the solo cross countries:

1. The solo cross countries are a maneuver, like steep turns, that should be drilled on until the student gets it correct. Just as a steep turn will be repeated with a CFI many times until the student is proficient, a cross country from AAA-BBB-CCC-AAA may need to be repeated with a CFI until the student is proficient enough to do it on their own.

2. The solo cross countries are a culmination of everything the student has learned before. They are more of a "test" involving skills the student has already gained, the successful completion of which is indicated by their successfully having made it back to the home airport.

I really don't think there are "two schools of thought" and don't understand why it's necessary to stratify instructional techniques in such a binary way. I believe this is called the "false dilemma fallacy".