Single Engine down in Nashville - KJWN

In their case, they seemed to be constantly descending from 10.5, and as soon as they leveled off airspeed started dropping.
 
Peter Anderson said:
And the navy being the navy still uses paper charts? Because I certainly don’t lol


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No, not that I am aware of. That does not invalidate their findings nor the applicability to cockpit night lighting.
 
donjohnston said:
Not just Canada's recommendation. Also the US Air Force. Their study showed dimmable white lights are superior to red. Unless you're making a ground attack run or dogfighting on a moonless night.
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Yeap.

Red light needs to be at a higher intensity to see and then it is no better.

A-10 had white cockpit lighting.
 
Jim K said:
yep...
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So my fuel management strategy has always been a 30-min timer set on my 530 that prompts me to switch tanks. However, I've always had the habit of not switching between initial taxi and climbout or if I'm already approaching my destination airport. My sort of vague reasoning was that if something was wrong with that 'side' of the fuel system it was a bad time to find out and there really wasn't any advantage to switching tanks at those times anyway as I'm always carrying excess fuel. This possibility is probably a more solid reason for continuing this practice.
 
Crap. Something so simple to check and verify.

What might explain why the fuel lines to 1,3,5 had fuel but not 2,4,6?
 
Maybe because of the aircraft/engine damage left side vs right?
 
3393RP said:
The frustration with the apparent fuel mismanagement and the sorrow felt because of the loss of a family produce dichotomous feelings that can't be easily digested.

What a sad event.
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If you heard the radio calls, he sounds resigned.

Really sad if the issue is panic or resignation resulting in failure to conduct the engine out flow.
 
SebIp said:
If you heard the radio calls, he sounds resigned.

Really sad if the issue is panic or resignation resulting in failure to conduct the engine out flow.
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Bit of a spate of fatal accidents lately where pilots failed to handle what should have been manageable situations.

A Mooney crashed in St Augustine yesterday, killing both occupants. The door popped open after takeoff and they were returning to land.

I don't want to take the lazy and self-satisfying "kids these days" tack. But I do wonder if increased technology in the cockpit is absorbing training time that used to be spent on stick-and-rudder skills and mechanical systems.
 
SebIp said:
If you heard the radio calls, he sounds resigned.

Really sad if the issue is panic or resignation resulting in failure to conduct the engine out flow.
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Though I've flown the PA32R series, its been awhile. I can't recall how well lit the fuel selector is at night. There is no indication, nor will we probably ever know with certainty, if the lever was not touched during the last portion of the flight or if it was operated prior to landing, operated just prior to landing, while maneuvering over the airport, or after the power began to fail. Nor, if that selector position was directly related to the power loss. I have my suspicions which of those it may be, but that's it.

Maybe some A&P's can chime in and shed some light as to how precise the fuel selector is when the selector is not exactly in the ON (or BOTH, L, or R) position, but just partially away from it. Several witnesses said they heard popping and sputtering sounds as it went overhead, which indicates it may have been operating to some degree, very poorly, but wasn't completely stopped. I know the thoughts about witnesses, but that's all we have from the ground.
 
Here's a similar accident from a PA 32RT a few years ago, thankfully not fatal: https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/221203

"The on-scene examination noted that the fuel selector lever was found in an intermediate position between the left and right tank detents, about 1 to 2 inches past center, more toward the right tank position."

"When the fuel system was configured to mimic fuel available in the left tank and no fuel in the right tank, engine roughness and a partial loss of engine power was duplicated through placement of the fuel selector lever to the approximate position as found at the accident scene. The engine roughness can likely be attributed to a mixture of fuel and air in the fuel system. "
 
Well the report also says the valve and handle were damaged from both impact and fire. Current position may not be 100% reliable indicator.

If it were indeed in that position it seems to me if it was favoring the left wing more than OFF, some flow should occur. Maybe enough flow to run at a low power setting. Left wing had the juice, per the fire.

Either way, it would have been prudent to keep a tight pattern if that airport was indeed the destination.

IMG_3873.jpeg
 
Very sad. An entire family gone from what sounds like a preventable accident. RIP
 
That is so unfortunate.
I used to switch tanks whenever the timer ran out - now I am a lot more careful and ensure that I have a good landing spot before I touch the fuel selector.
And I don't mess with it before landing, either - if it's been ok for the past 30-40 minutes or so and there's enough fuel in the tank, that's the landing tank.
 
I always give the selector a good wiggle to make sure it's actually in the detent. And that's a 5 position selector. Breaking the chain, you wonder if he chooses to overfly if it's daytime. And if the fuel selector was in the correct position overflying doesn't matter.

Very sad. RIP
 
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You definitely can’t see the fuel selector at night. My DPE told me if you ever have an engine problem, fuel air spark. (If you notice, I used a label maker and added that to my old panel). Not sure how practical it is to remember that in a time of crisis. But this would have saved them if they followed that. Very sad. RIP.
 
Piperonca said:
Brain quit before the engine did.
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Sounds like he was behind the airplane the whole time. Probably the combination of night, complicated airspace, and complex high performance aircraft was too much for his experience level. Add his whole family on board and he was too far down the stress - performance curve to function effectively.

I don't have a multi position fuel selector, but if I did, I think I would spend several hours practicing the settings with my eyes closed.
 
Easy to do in the -32. I did it once when I was new to my plane. Switched entering the pattern, missed "left" and went to "off" plane ran fine until short final.

Thankfully my cfi drilled into me "undo the last thing you did". Powerful words that will fix an airplane nine times out of ten.

I fixed the detent that is supposed to prevent that, and now fuel tank selection for landing occurs when I first start descending.
 
Ed Haywood said:
I don't have a multi position fuel selector, but if I did, I think I would spend several hours practicing the settings with my eyes closed.
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Off-left-right. Feel the detents.
 
Ed Haywood said:
Sounds like he was behind the airplane the whole time. Probably the combination of night, complicated airspace, and complex high performance aircraft was too much for his experience level. Add his whole family on board and he was too far down the stress - performance curve to function effectively.

I don't have a multi position fuel selector, but if I did, I think I would spend several hours practicing the settings with my eyes closed.
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Personally I try not to touch it, I think if you moved it a few hundred times that it could increase the chances of breaking. I’m usually somewhat aware of a landing spot when I change tanks and now I don’t change fuel tanks on landing unless I was almost empty on the tank in use. Just my practice after hearing of other issues with the fuel selector.
 
Jim K said:
Easy to do in the -32. I did it once when I was new to my plane. Switched entering the pattern, missed "left" and went to "off" plane ran fine until short final.

Thankfully my cfi drilled into me "undo the last thing you did". Powerful words that will fix an airplane nine times out of ten.

I fixed the detent that is supposed to prevent that, and now fuel tank selection for landing occurs when I first start descending.
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So did it quit and did it start right back up? I want to try this on a 15,000’ runway or something once.
 
mandm said:
So did it quit and did it start right back up? I want to try this on a 15,000’ runway or something once.
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I have a thread about it somewhere. I noticed I was sinking too fast, so I pushed the power up and nothing happened. It took me a couple seconds to process it. There was surprisingly little difference in noise and the RPM stayed the same, so the sink rate was really the only indication. I flipped the selector back to "right" and it came back almost immediately. Probably because I had the boost pump on. I had the throttle nearly wide open and the yaw really surprised me when it came back.
 
Jim K said:
I have a thread about it somewhere. I noticed I was sinking too fast, so I pushed the power up and nothing happened. It took me a couple seconds to process it. There was surprisingly little difference in noise and the RPM stayed the same, so the sink rate was really the only indication. I flipped the selector back to "right" and it came back almost immediately. Probably because I had the boost pump on. I had the throttle nearly wide open and the yaw really surprised me when it came back.
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On the flight back from Dynon upgrade I ran a tank dry in cruise. Got enamored with all the new shiny things. And I had yet to configure the audible alarms to change tanks. First thing was autopilot disconnected. Then the engine surged a bit. That's when I switched tanks. Boost pump on. Order restored. If we lost 300' it was a lot.

Never noticed a change in engine tone until it started surging.
 
Jim K said:
Easy to do in the -32. I did it once when I was new to my plane. Switched entering the pattern, missed "left" and went to "off" plane ran fine until short final.

Thankfully my cfi drilled into me "undo the last thing you did". Powerful words that will fix an airplane nine times out of ten.

I fixed the detent that is supposed to prevent that, and now fuel tank selection for landing occurs when I first start descending.
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Jim, I had that happen to me on the -32 I was flying … well, about to fly… too. I was second in line at the hold short line. Check list commanded switch tanks, and I went from right through the left detent to off.

I remembered the “undo the last thing” mantra and discovered that the metal shroud that covered the valve (and anchored the thumb lock that allegedly protected the Off detent…) was loose and about to fall off.

Nice problem to have on the ground!

-Skip
 
Article from Flying Magazine on this accident. Nothing new, except final point that pilot would have had plenty of emergency landing options in daylight.

www.flyingmag.com

Detent: Pilot’s Tiny Misstep Leads to Tragedy

As a general principle, pilot's tank switches should be gotten out of the way early in the approach sequence.
www.flyingmag.com www.flyingmag.com

I was joking with someone the other day about how most of my XC trips wind up with an hour of unintended night flight at the end, because I am perpetually late departing. In this case the holes in the swiss cheese lined up.
 
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