Should I consider a consult with and/or fully undertake the HIMS process?

[Evel Knievel]

I am not a pilot, but I want to get a class 1 medical and become a student pilot. I doubt I want to attempt to slingshot to ATP as fast as possible, and maybe I'll never try to become an ATP, but I do want to potentially fly for employment.

When I was 12, I briefly took ADHD medication (Focalin, similar to Adderall) for a couple months. I stopped before age 13. When I was age 17, I got some very bad mental health diagnoses. To be clear, I have never been seen for hallucinations, no SI, nor any HI. But, according to the paperwork from age 17, I received a laundry list of almost-as-bad mental health diagnoses. Allegedly, it was likely malpractice, but no court has been involved, and it is now beyond the statute of limitations. I have never taken, nor have I ever been prescribed any medication other than Focalin for ADHD, and that was only at age 12. I have had no mental health treatment or exams in many years, other than to get evals in the military before going to difficult schools, just to document that 'everything is fine, there are no issues'. And when joining the military initially, I had to get sent to a provider to check and see if anything was wrong psychologically. As an adult, I had a visit to a civilian hospital a couple of years ago while traveling, and they coded it as alcohol intoxication and epistaxis (nosebleed). They didn't have to treat me or anything or keep me for observation; I was just bleeding. I was there for an hour or two. I don't drink except on holidays or occasional events with friends, and I've never had any substance-related criminal behavior or other misconduct except being summonsed for having possesion of sealed containers of alcohol, and containers of marijuana as a child, which neither of those are even crimes in that particular jurisdiction, just civil violations. And I do believe the marijuana one was a dismissal, not an adjudication, if that matters. But, for all I know, a reasonable person at the FAA could connect the adult medical episode with a childhood alcohol abuse diagnosis from age 17 and childhood alcohol and marijuana possession civil violations, and claim that it's a huge barrier to flying. I have no way to predict that, I'm just trying to be transparent about any possible thing they could claim is an issue. My only marijuana use is as an 18 year old, and minor, so 'ancient history' we might call it. I have no other illegal or recreational illicit drug use, and no prescription drug abuse. I did recieve conviction as a child for an actual crime, which was driving without a license at age 14. I doubt they would care, but for all I know, they would. Other childhood crimes were charged, but none were felonious, and they did not result in convictions. I don't think further detail is necessary, but I am happy to provide.

I know nobody can say certain things, but would you kind ladies and gentlemen speculate that I need to do HIMS? I do not want to try to initially go to a normal AME, and get slapped with a denial. I have heard appealing a denial is very difficult.
If you say no, i.e., you think I do NOT need to do HIMS, should I still try to do a consultation with a HIMS before I do anything, out of an abundance of caution? I obviously don't want to throw thousands of dollars at something that isn't a problem and won't be a barrier. Likewise, I don't want to throw thousands at something which is definitely a pipe dream and never-going-to-happen.
I would hope that a good HIMS AME would be the first to tell me 'hey dude, HIMS is not necessary for you, there is no reason to spend the money. Just go see a conventional AME.' And, I would hope a good conventional AME would be the first to tell me 'hey dude, don't do this with me, go see a HIMS because I think there is a high likelihood you will receive a denial without HIMS.' LIkewise, I would hope both the HIMS and the conventional AME would both be honest if they think I will never be able to receive a medical, and tell me to just not spend the money or time and pursue something else with my life. But I have seen horror stories on the internet about the AME process, and I have to admit I am very nervous, and I hope you guys can at least take an off-the-cuff crack at what you would try to do if you were me. I know, no promises, no guarantees.

I am currently enlisted in the military in a non-aviation role. I have zero military aviation background. All this medical stuff is in the military medical records, for any of you who might suggest that I try to conceal information from FAA (which even as a civilian, I wouldn't conceal. Not worth it. I will be fully transparent with the FAA and medical personnel). I do have a bachelor's degree.

As far as physical, not mental ailments that I have ever been seen for or diagnosed with at any prior point in history, they include: broken bone, ingrown toenails, pilonidal abscess, resolved penicillin allergy, bladeless LASIK both eyes in 2024 without complications, and asthma that resolved at age 7.

Thank you very much for any advice or tips!!!

 

[murphey]

Do not fill out any MedXpress form on the website.
Find a Senior AME in your area.
Visit the AME for a CONSULTATION.
The AME will then provide direction for you to follow for a Class 1/2/3.
Your other option is to take up sailing.

 

[Daleandee]

I'm not a doc so I don't count but if I was a betting man ... I'm guessing you'll meet/need HIMS pretty quickly and the $$$ will get your attention.

@murphey gave you sound advice ...

 

[Evel Knievel]

Do not fill out any MedXpress form on the website.
Find a Senior AME in your area.
Visit the AME for a CONSULTATION.
The AME will then provide direction for you to follow for a Class 1/2/3.
Your other option is to take up sailing.

Thank you so much! May I ask why you avoided the topic of HIMS? I believe, if I remember correctly, there is a community of people who are just simply not fans of the HIMS program in general.

Sorry to ask so many questions, but clearly this is gonna be a dramatic fight for me, so I guess I should roll up my sleeves and try to get well-read, and prepare for a fight...

When you instruct me to NOT fill out any MedXpress form(s), is that on the FAA's website, or on the website of the specific provider/practice that a given AME is employed at? Actually, I'm embarrased to say, I do not know if AMEs are actual government employees or if they just are licensed and work extensively with the FAA... Will some AMEs, or more specifically, their employees, try to instruct/demand I fill those MedXpress form(s) out? Should I just say, "I'm only doing a consultation to start out with, I can not fill any of those forms out yet, sorry!" Will some people refuse to work with me without filling those out, and I should move on and find a better AME to consult with?

Is 'Senior AME' an actual bestowed title that certain people are granted, or is it just colloquial for an experienced, not green, conventional AME? Can a singular AME, can that person themselves simultaneously be both a normal AME, a HIMS AME, and/or a Senior AME, all simultaneously, or some combination of the three? Or are the providers/actual-individual-doctors only eligible to themselves be one of those titles at a given time? Perhaps, in reality the nuance is such that a HIMS AME is also by definition a normal AME, but when a client goes to see that doctor, the AME is either working with the client in the HIMS process, OR said doctor is working with the client via the normal process, but said AME sees other clients in the other capacity too...?

Obviously, some brand new people go right from never having had a medical nor PPL before, to immediately getting a class 1 fresh off-the-bat, before even becoming a student pilot. Am I in some sort of strange scenario, where you are suggesting that a good AME and/or good HIMS AME, after successfully doing a consult and determining I have a good chance, they may/would try to get me for class 3, and then only if I successfully am granted class 3, they subsequently try for a class 2, then only if I successfully am granted class 2, they try class 1? Perhaps I am reading way too much into all this and jumping to conclusions and assuming your motivations for this information all wrong. If you are simply suggesting that there is always the possibility a knowledgeable AME may potentially go "hey Evel Kneivel, I think your hopes of ever getting a class 2 are slim, we're just gonna try for class 3 and that will likely be as high as you can ever make it", then apologies for running with it and assuming more.

If the AME believes me to never be capable of being granted a class 2 under the current regulations, at that point, what is stopping me from just avoiding the whole AME process and selecting basic med instead...? Some people seem to think Basic Med is great? If I really do get information that class 1 is probably a pipe dream and unlikely to ever happen under current rules, I may reevaluate the entire plan entirely, or change things, I'm not sure...

May I also ask, is it likely that I could perform this over the phone, or am I going to always need to do consults, exams, and meetings in-person?

My plan was/is to become a military aviator, but I am running into real bureaucracy barriers there too, including military medical people fighting with other military medical people for many, many moons now. I did a FOIA request, and the uniformed military medical people and civilian military medical employees are actually insulting each other professionally in-writing in regards to my medical paperwork. It has been a very bizarre experience.

Thank you!!!

 

[Evel Knievel]

I'm not a doc so I don't count but if I was a betting man ... I'm guessing you'll meet/need HIMS pretty quickly and the $$$ will get your attention.

@murphey gave you sound advice ...

If it's gonna be over fifty dollars then perhaps I should wait until I am rich and famous. I think I may have saw redditors and facebookers complaining about spending in the $15,000 range. I am not thrilled about the potential for that. I hope AMEs accept credit card.

 

[bbchien]

Marijuana.
Alcohol
ADD.

This calls out the full HIMS level evaluations done after after a minimum of six months of random urine negative testing to FAA's std. Why pee in the cup? Because, otherwise the high $$ evaluators merely write, "we recommend sobriety"....which is not a good value.

Even just the ADD evaluation will bring the other two to light; possession of sealed containers will raise judgement issues and provoke the HIMS psychiatrist. If you attempt to guard, the HIMS psychiatrist writes "invalid session".

Some of my peers refer to this as "the trifecta".

I would hope a good conventional AME would be the first to tell me 'hey dude, don't do this with me, go see a HIMS because I think there is a high likelihood you will receive a denial without HIMS

Get a grip, man. no AME, HIMS or otherwise, can issue this in the office. Now you could lie. Seriosuly man, that's a class 4 felony and FAA has been making that stick. It takes a few years but it happens.

 

[Evel Knievel]

Marijuana.
Alcohol
ADD.

This calls out the full HIMS level evaluations done after after a minimum of six months of random urine negative testing to FAA's std. Why pee in the cup? Because, otherwise the high $$ evaluators merely write, "we recommend sobriety"....which is not a good value.

Even just the ADD evaluation will bring the other two to light; possession of sealed containers will raise judgement issues and provoke the HIMS psychiatrist. If you attempt to guard, the HIMS psychiatrist writes "invalid session".

Some of my peers refer to this as "the trifecta".



Get a grip, man. no AME, HIMS or otherwise, can issue this in the office. Now you could lie. Seriosuly man, that's a class 4 felony and FAA has been making that stick. It takes a few years but it happens.

Thank you for editing your comment for clarity and elaborating.

I have zero opposition to peeing in a cup for six months. Obviously, spending that amount of time and money would suck, but the urinalysis is not an issue. Did you not see where I said I am in the military? We pee in cups all the time. We get random surprise breathalyzer analysis. All of us serving in the military have implicitly agreed to be subjected to blood and/or hair follicle analysis, although I have never met or seen anyone who's claimed to have seen anything besides urinalysis or breath-alcohol analysis subjected on a servicemember.

I also have a CDL. A civilian CDL on my civilian driver's license. I have peed in a great many cups for civilian and military employment.

It is a concern where geographically I need to travel to do so, or where, if I am going to be flying or driving very far away weekly or how often at what interval. I.e., how far and how often I am travelling for these appointments... If I have to fly to the other side of the country every week to meet with the right AME to pee in his cup, that could get inconvenient very quickly. Maybe the urinanalysis is regularly conducted at third-party clinics more conveniently located to the client?

Oh, if I am working internationally and/or at sea for months at a time, how often am I going to be expected to pee in a cup? I wonder if they would allow me to remotely do it at sea if they have drug and alcohol testing facilities on the platform and/or on-board the vessel.

This is exactly why I made this post now, because I knew this process could take a very long time. I do not have the time, or forty grand to start PPL training next week. I knew the medical could take seemingly FOREVER. Obviously, the sooner the better, it's not as though I have unlimited time.

Did you not see the part of my original post where I said I had zero interest in lying? Lying would be incredibly dumb.

Oh, in case anyone asks, I have zero refused or failed drug or alcohol tests, ever.

I hope possession of sealed alcohol at age 18 does not present current judgment issue concerns, lol. But if it does, maybe a long drawn-out HIMS process can clear that up?

In case anyone is just skimming and/or not deep reading, which would be very understandable, I have not done anything in many years, and all my misconduct is as a minor, or 18 year old. I do not have a substance abuse problem, and any diagnoses saying I do are from childhood. I have not used marijuana since a month after my 18th birthday. It sounds like there may be a heavy burden on me to extensively prove I do not have a substance abuse problem. I can't say I'm surprised. Looking forward to proving I don't have one.

I would hope a good conventional AME would be the first to tell me 'hey dude, don't do this with me, go see a HIMS because I think there is a high likelihood you will receive a denial without HIMS

This sentence I wrote isn't clear? That is if I hypothetically went to a normal AME, would he be cool enough to, if he thought I needed it, tell me I would be better suited by a long-drawn out HIMS process instead of going with his conventional process. I have no idea how profit-motivated these AMEs are, and for all I know there could be a policy where they are not allowed to redirect you to help you avoid a denial.

Also, not pertinent, but to be pedantic, Google says Federal felonies are classified Classes A through E. Not numbers. Letters. Let's hope that knowledge never becomes pertinent to any of us

When did I say I had the impression that I could be an easy in-out one day brief session to get a medical? I knew there would be extensive drama... I'd like to iterate that I know literally nothing about this whole process. I am being extremely cautious, and researching upfront. Like I said, I am worried about a denial. I have done extensive reading but I clearly have misconceptions about the basic functions of an FAA medical and a normal AME visit.

Some people on reddit are giving me the impression that you can't go to a HIMS until the FAA writes you a letter instructing you to use a HIMS?

Thanks so much. I do appreciate you generously commenting and sharing this information

 

[Evel Knievel]

Do not fill out any MedXpress form on the website.
Find a Senior AME in your area.
Visit the AME for a CONSULTATION.
The AME will then provide direction for you to follow for a Class 1/2/3.
Your other option is to take up sailing.

Oh, does the Senior AME and/or normal AME have to get some feedback and only then subsequently refer me to a HIMS AME? Is that the intended mechanisms? Perhaps, just make certain that the initial Senior AME and/or normal AME visit is a consultation, because if it's not a consultation, they may insist on forcing me into a denial before having an opportunity to go to a HIMS, which would thus be an appeal, instead of a consult fast track to a HIMS from the get-go?
Thank you

Apologies if it's strange, I wrote the initial replies hours ago, but the admins are understandably busy and since I am a new user they have to manually approve each response I make

 

[Evel Knievel]

Do not fill out any MedXpress form on the website.
Find a Senior AME in your area.
Visit the AME for a CONSULTATION.
The AME will then provide direction for you to follow for a Class 1/2/3.
Your other option is to take up sailing.

Is 'Senior AME' an actual bestowed title that certain people are granted, or is it just colloquial for an experienced, not green, conventional AME? Can a singular AME, can that person themselves simultaneously be both a normal AME, a HIMS AME, and/or a Senior AME, all simultaneously, or some combination of the three? Or are the providers/actual-individual-doctors only eligible to themselves be one of those titles at a given time? Perhaps, in reality the nuance is such that a HIMS AME is also by definition a normal AME, but when a client goes to see that doctor, the AME is either working with the client in the HIMS process, OR said doctor is working with the client via the normal process, but said AME sees other clients in the other capacity too...?

It took 3+ hours, but I was able to answer my own question before the admin approved my replies (not being fresh, just trying to explain the odd sudden-post-spam that will happen).

From Dr. Bruce Chien's Linkedin profile:
"Have all 3 Advanced AME ratings:
Senior
Advanced
HIMS"

 

[Evel Knievel]

I also had a very minor concussion that required no subsequent treatment when I was age 17 or age 18. Just once. I guess the FAA may care a ton about that too

I'm also very concerned about this, which I just lifted directly from a Reddit post: "They wanted medical records, prescription history, current prognosis, etc and gave me 60 days to send it back (I received the letter after 25 days had already elapsed..)"

I know someone will say "HeY mAn, JuSt GeT yOuR mEdIcAl ReCoRdS rEaDy FiRsT" Well I have, at least I have a lot. Have I fully? I think so? Prescription history? Do I lift that from Infonet or something? Is there a government prescription history database? I have no idea what exactly I need. I do not want to **** of Dr. Chien or the local HIMS doctor because I didn't have my ducks in a row

 

[wellknow]

oh. boy

 

[AvNavCom]

I have no idea what exactly I need.

1. Schedule a CONSULTATION with a senior AME and do NOT fill out any MedXpress application. This keeps it unofficial and no clocks start ticking.
2. For that consultation, bring along a concise, factual summary of the conditions/events you posted above, without any of the editorializing. If you can send that in advance, it will help the AME better prepare for the discussion.
3. Come prepared to the consultation ready to write down what items will be required for next steps. Understand that you are in RECEIVE mode. There is no debating or negotiating with the FAA or AMEs. They don't care what you think makes sense and the AME has a duty to the FAA and the general public, not you.
4. Do not get medical advice on the internet and stop posting medical information in public forums. Sure as hell don't get advice from the festering pit of misinformation that is Reddit.

If the only kind of flying you're interested in is professional, paid flying, then get your medical stuff sorted out before you spend any money on lessons.

If you know you want to be a pilot, even if it turns out that you can only fly recreationally and can't be a paid pilot, then I suggest you look into Sport Pilot, which you can start today with no medical requirement. With the passage of MOSAIC, Sport Pilot is a great choice for recreational flying that you can easily upgrade into higher tiers once your medical is sorted out. Be aware that Sport Pilot ceases to be an option if your medical is denied (which can only occur if you submit a physical in MedXpress; hence the consultation advice).

 

[KE5BM]

Evel, AvNavCom's post is the single best piece of advice you're going to get before you go see an AME.

Get off of Reddit. Seriously. I had to discharge a service member under other than honorable conditions a few years ago because he was getting "advice" from the Reddit idiots. (Reddidiots?) Stop going down that road. Halt. They are NOT in your chain of command.

Stop trying to explain away poor decisions (especially in a public forum...do the cool kids still say TMI?). We've all made them. There are consequences. To repeat above, you are in RECEIVE mode now.

Best of luck to you in your pilot endeavors, and more especially for going down the military road. I'm about to call it quits after 27 years. It has its frustrating moments, but it's time well served.

 

[Evel Knievel]

If it's gonna be over fifty dollars then perhaps I should wait until I am rich and famous. I think I may have saw redditors and facebookers complaining about spending in the $15,000 range. I am not thrilled about the potential for that. I hope AMEs accept credit card.

I meant to say fifty thousand dollars, not a mere fifty. Excuse me

 

[Evel Knievel]

1. Schedule a CONSULTATION with a senior AME and do NOT fill out any MedXpress application. This keeps it unofficial and no clocks start ticking.
2. For that consultation, bring along a concise, factual summary of the conditions/events you posted above, without any of the editorializing. If you can send that in advance, it will help the AME better prepare for the discussion.
3. Come prepared to the consultation ready to write down what items will be required for next steps. Understand that you are in RECEIVE mode. There is no debating or negotiating with the FAA or AMEs. They don't care what you think makes sense and the AME has a duty to the FAA and the general public, not you.
4. Do not get medical advice on the internet and stop posting medical information in public forums. Sure as hell don't get advice from the festering pit of misinformation that is Reddit.

If the only kind of flying you're interested in is professional, paid flying, then get your medical stuff sorted out before you spend any money on lessons.

If you know you want to be a pilot, even if it turns out that you can only fly recreationally and can't be a paid pilot, then I suggest you look into Sport Pilot, which you can start today with no medical requirement. With the passage of MOSAIC, Sport Pilot is a great choice for recreational flying that you can easily upgrade into higher tiers once your medical is sorted out. Be aware that Sport Pilot ceases to be an option if your medical is denied (which can only occur if you submit a physical in MedXpress; hence the consultation advice).

If they tell me they think class 3 or class 2 is doable, there would be little reason to pursue Sport Pilot, correct? It's also always possible that with time and/or regulatory loosenings, my class 3 or 2 of this decade could down the road be upgraded to class 1? (admittedly, regulatory tightenings are always possible). If I get a bunch of hours as Sport Pilot, can some of those Sport-Pilot-hours potentially be leveraged after I eventually someday get a PPL and want to pursue additional ratings?

I still am confused about how AMEs work, but I'm sure if I ask them a couple short questions, I would learn a lot while I'm there in the office.
I can only assume that everyone already knows that if I even have a chance at all, I'm gonna be forced to use HIMS, but no one is allowed to go to HIMS without first seeing a senior, advanced, or normal AME?

I am so happy I posted my substance and medical history here, because if I didn't, I'd be flying blind. Not every AME is good, but I assume most are good? Besides reading reviews on the internet, and talking to fellas at my municipal airport who probably had a way simpler medical history than me, how do I avoid a bad AME? If my AME doesn't follow the steps you listed above, then I will know that something is potentially off. Thank you very much.

My attitude has been such that since this happened when I was a child, I certainly HAD to tell AME/FAA about it, but I didn't think it was going to be treated the same way as adult DUI and other misconduct is. In America, we usually do not incredibly judge and scrutinize people for mistakes they made before the age of majority, because we know people are a product of their environment. I know the military, at least for accession purposes, can slightly care about juvenile mistakes, especially when said applicant is enlisting in their teenage years. It sounds like the FAA will likely not care that this all happened a decade plus ago, from what ya'll are saying, and will treat it with the entry-assumption out of the gate that we have to prove it is not still a problem, as if it was just a recent issue. In other words, guilty until proven innocent. That's not something I am against, I understand why they have to behave that way, I just am trying to get as informed as possible about how this all works.

If the only kind of flying you're interested in is professional, paid flying, then get your medical stuff sorted out before you spend any money on lessons.

I thought that a new PPL-holder had to build a bunch of PPL time before said new pilot could even get a CPL rating. I also thought whether you have a PPL or CPL, with or without a CFI or CFII, a new pilot needed a ton of hours before realistically anyone would ever dream of hiring them ever, not to mention, having enough hours to ever dream of insuring your own personally owned aircraft. So I'm a little confused on the logic here. If your intended argument was only that if it sounds like a pipe dream to ever get a class 1 or class 2, it may not make sense for me to pursue any flight training, then I know you are certainly correct, and I will reevaluate the whole problem if that arises and go do additional research and/or try to get a second opinion, and ask more 'internet experts'.

Thank you!

 

[Evel Knievel]

Evel, AvNavCom's post is the single best piece of advice you're going to get before you go see an AME.

Get off of Reddit. Seriously. I had to discharge a service member under other than honorable conditions a few years ago because he was getting "advice" from the Reddit idiots. (Reddidiots?) Stop going down that road. Halt. They are NOT in your chain of command.

Stop trying to explain away poor decisions (especially in a public forum...do the cool kids still say TMI?). We've all made them. There are consequences. To repeat above, you are in RECEIVE mode now.

Best of luck to you in your pilot endeavors, and more especially for going down the military road. I'm about to call it quits after 27 years. It has its frustrating moments, but it's time well served.

Sir, thank you very much for the comment. If I was a military aviator, with no civilian flying experience, but with my real-life-childhood-medical/legal-history, would they still likely make me do HIMS and/or jump through AME drama, or do they just assume that if I, a new military aviator, am currently compliant with NAMI/ACS/DAM, I am good to go, and they just automatically grant a FAA class 1 after being shown evidence of my current compliant Naval or Air Force or Army flight status?

If conversely, I do attempt a civilian FAA medical, and I get a denial from FAA, and then somehow subsequently miraculously convince NAMI or ACS to take me, what happens then, when the last time FAA heard anything from me, I was denied FAA medical, and then suddenly now I am a military aviator, and I want to convert my military aviation experience into FAA ratings? I wonder how often that unique situation is bridged. I am guessing it cannot be easy for active duty enlisted and/or active duty officers to convince their chain of command that they constantly need a couple hours to drive to a FAA AME so that they can get their civilian FAA medical straightened out.

May I ask, with the whispers you have heard and the things you have seen in your long career, do you think me ever flying with DOD/DOW is a pipe dream? I assume you have been to one of three of those things, NAMI, ACS, or DAM. I never even made it that far. MEPS didn't care when I enlisted many years ago, but suddenly for a second trip to a different MEPS location years-later, they are caring immensely, and legal people are getting involved. It may just be that I picked 'the wrong MEPS', but I think it is likely a bellwether that any medical thing I pursue ever will be dramatic for a long time. I think the issue may also be that at some point in prior decades, before things were digitized, allegedly, some civilian provider mistakenly inserted another human's medical records into my records, and they are fighting about how to correct that too. I only hear about it second hand. That is a separate issue from the possible malpractice I alluded to earlier, and I didn't bring up any of those diagnoses from another random human patient. All the diagnoses and legal and substance things from my childhood I alluded to are 100% mine and really happened.

Like I said to AvNavCom, my attitude has been such that since this happened when I was a child, I certainly HAD to tell AME/FAA about it, but I didn't think it was going to be treated the same way as adult DUI and other adult criminal and/or adult misconduct is viewed. In America, we usually do not incredibly judge and scrutinize people for mistakes they made before the age of majority, because we know people are a product of their environment, and children have poor decision-making skills. I know the military, at least for accession purposes, can slightly care about juvenile mistakes, especially when you are enlisting in your teenage years, and it's only recent history. It sounds like the FAA will likely not care that this all happened a decade plus ago, from what ya'll are saying, and will treat it with the entry-assumption out of the gate that we have to prove it is not still a problem, as if it was just a recent issue. In other words, guilty until proven innocent. That's not something I am against; I understand why the FAA has to behave that way in the modern age.

Congratulations on a very long career, and wishing you and your family the best in your retirement.

 

[KE5BM]

Thanks for that, Evel.

To be perfectly clear, I'm not involved in military aviation. I'm a boat driver. I worked as an Aviation Electronics Tech in the Navy from 2000-2004 but made the jump to the Coast Guard to drive rescue boats. Currently in command of a small boat station. So unfortunately, I cannot speak to NAMI, ACS, or DAM in that context. However, one thing I discovered while pursuing my own flying hobby is that military aviators do not hold an FAA medical certificate so there's no applicability into much of what you're asking. As for how an AME looks at a clean, successful career in aviation - maybe the good Doctor can answer that for you.

Is military aviation a pipe dream? Absolutely not. Given that you already have a degree, there is a path for you to become an officer (even if already enlisted) and a pretty basic flight aptitude written exam to screen applicants. Depending on the service you choose will determine how difficult it is to get into a pilot's seat. The Army is arguably the easiest to find a seat so long as you're ok with helicopters and occasionally being shot at.

The reason your experience at MEPS has changed is directly due to much more stringent standards in recruiting and accession in accordance with Secretary of War direction. It has nothing to do with one station over another - they're standardized. Speaking strictly for the military side of the house, though - DO NOT OBSCURE, LIE, CONCEAL, DOWNPLAY, COVER UP, SKIRT, DANCE, OR PASS BY any past medical history. A relative of mine went off to the Marines a couple years ago. He had a minor drug incident while in 7th grade in that a peer of his gave him this cool pill to try - almost killed him. There was a court proceeding and the family was assured that since he was a minor, if he kept flying right it would be removed from his record. Fast forward 10 years or so and the kid is up for a meritorious advancement to E5. A background check was initiated and unfortunately that incident was never removed from his record. Admin discharge due to fraudulent enlistment. Don't let that be you.

 

[murphey]

Incredibly harsh mode turned on

1) Nothing is hidden from the Feds (FAA, etc) regardless what any lawyer told you about pre-18 activities. There's no such thing as "my record is sealed", "my record was expunged", etc.
2) An AME is a physician who is a contractor to the FAA. They answer to the FAA, not to you. There is no such thing as patient-privilege because you are not their patient.
3) Pay attention to Dr Bruce Chien
4) Anything and everything you post here is public and can be used against you.
5) Stop posting anywhere on the Internet unless it's good news.

Harsh mode temporarily turned off

Here's a quote from my Legal Issues in Software course:

“I mean, what kind of a narcissistic society is it that people want to put out there, This is my life, and this is what I did yesterday?
I mean … good grief. Doesn’t that strike you as strange? I think it’s strange.” –

Justice Antonin Scalia

 

[Evel Knievel]

Thanks for that, Evel.

To be perfectly clear, I'm not involved in military aviation. I'm a boat driver. I worked as an Aviation Electronics Tech in the Navy from 2000-2004 but made the jump to the Coast Guard to drive rescue boats. Currently in command of a small boat station. So unfortunately, I cannot speak to NAMI, ACS, or DAM in that context. However, one thing I discovered while pursuing my own flying hobby is that military aviators do not hold an FAA medical certificate so there's no applicability into much of what you're asking. As for how an AME looks at a clean, successful career in aviation - maybe the good Doctor can answer that for you.

Is military aviation a pipe dream? Absolutely not. Given that you already have a degree, there is a path for you to become an officer (even if already enlisted) and a pretty basic flight aptitude written exam to screen applicants. Depending on the service you choose will determine how difficult it is to get into a pilot's seat. The Army is arguably the easiest to find a seat so long as you're ok with helicopters and occasionally being shot at.

The reason your experience at MEPS has changed is directly due to much more stringent standards in recruiting and accession in accordance with Secretary of War direction. It has nothing to do with one station over another - they're standardized. Speaking strictly for the military side of the house, though - DO NOT OBSCURE, LIE, CONCEAL, DOWNPLAY, COVER UP, SKIRT, DANCE, OR PASS BY any past medical history. A relative of mine went off to the Marines a couple years ago. He had a minor drug incident while in 7th grade in that a peer of his gave him this cool pill to try - almost killed him. There was a court proceeding and the family was assured that since he was a minor, if he kept flying right it would be removed from his record. Fast forward 10 years or so and the kid is up for a meritorious advancement to E5. A background check was initiated and unfortunately that incident was never removed from his record. Admin discharge due to fraudulent enlistment. Don't let that be you.

I also have a Merchant Mariner Credential. Have you started that process? That can be a real pain in the ass. Hopefully they could grant you like a Master's Near Coastal 500t with oceans endorsement?

Correct, military aviators do not hold a FAA medical certification by virtue of being in a flight status in the military. At least, uniformed military aviators do not. I have no idea about GS civilian military aviators, although I suspect GS military aviators are not common, and I have zero reason to learn about them. But, many uniformed military aviators ask the FAA to grant them ratings while they are still serving on active duty, and if they, during their leave and liberty, or if they are guardsmen and/or reservists, during their off-orders periods, they want to fly any civilian aviation, they need FAA ratings, I believe. Do these currently-serving-uniformed-military-aviators who want to fly civilian aircraft have to get an FAA medical certificate too? I can only assume the answer is YES, although who knows if so, how difficult or boilerplate that process is. I apologize for assuming you were a military aviator.

I spent over a year trying to become a military officer and pilot. I ran into a lot of roadblocks and I am still working and hoping it may work out. It might be a pipe dream. I didn't even get to the pilot part at all. I got hung up just with MEPS. Meaning, that particular MEPS station wouldn't even let me become an officer or enlisted man at all. Luckily, I am already enlisted due to a separate MEPS visit many years before and have been serving ever since. I already passed the pilot exams for the particular branch of service I was trying to fly/commission with.

I sent a package to MEPS when Biden was president. I suspect I may know more about the current state of DOD/DOW accession and recruiting. I am not trying to be arrogant or rude, and I certainly am no expert. Starting on the first day of the third quarter of Fiscal Year 2022, that's April 1st 2022, supposedly all MEPS in the country began using new software to screen new applicants for the military that automatically checks all civilian medical databases at all major hospital networks in the country. We could colliqually call the pre-April-1st-2022 era the 'honor system'.

Various recruiters and some attorneys have said it is one officer who works at MEPCOM that is holding me up, and some commissioned officers have recommended putting an IG complaint on him, but I don't know anything firsthand. I have never met the guy, I have never even stepped foot into the building or its curtilage. I have only read and heard things. I will not at all claim this is someone's fault, and I have no certainty of any wrongdoing of any kind from any person.

Admin discharge due to fraudulent enlistment with an OTH or general under honorable is a whole lot better than an actual criminal proceeding for fraudulent enlistment and a court martial conviction and a dishonorable or bad conduct. Proving the actual criminal UCMJ charge of fraudulent enlistment to a military jury is usually very difficult, you have to prove that someone knowingly and wittingly intentionally conspired to defraud the military and you have to bring the charge inside the statue of limitations. It's a very high bar to prove and short of actual audio recordings or written communications of someone conspiring, it's usually very hard to prove and seldom is the charge brought. Hopefully that fact is not leveraged by any people lacking in the scruples but it's good because sometimes people who don't fraudulently enlist, but are the victims of issues with recruiting, accession, court docket errors, medical malpractice, medical paperwork errors, or other issues and have in reality done nothing wrong, end up having have those charges or claims of fraud brought against them. Luckily, I was honest and forthright with everyone when I was young, so I don't have to worry about that. But back under the 'honor system', recruiters often encouraged their applicants to lie, and it likely still happens today. For people who are ad-sepped, it is not a jury, but there is a three-service-member panel and two of them have to decide the service member should be separated, if I remember correctly.

Thank you so much, and happy flying!

 

[Evel Knievel]

Incredibly harsh mode turned on

1) Nothing is hidden from the Feds (FAA, etc) regardless what any lawyer told you about pre-18 activities. There's no such thing as "my record is sealed", "my record was expunged", etc.
2) An AME is a physician who is a contractor to the FAA. They answer to the FAA, not to you. There is no such thing as patient-privilege because you are not their patient.
3) Pay attention to Dr Bruce Chien
4) Anything and everything you post here is public and can be used against you.
5) Stop posting anywhere on the Internet unless it's good news.

Harsh mode temporarily turned off

Here's a quote from my Legal Issues in Software course:

“I mean, what kind of a narcissistic society is it that people want to put out there, This is my life, and this is what I did yesterday?
I mean … good grief. Doesn’t that strike you as strange? I think it’s strange.” –

Justice Antonin Scalia

I didn't think this was very harsh. This seems gentle.

The nuances and complications of expungement and/or sealing at various different states and jurisdictions is very complicated. You will often hear military accession leadership, recruiters, or various other officials say that nothing is hidden. This could not be further from the truth. Oftentimes, when a young man or woman is trying to join the military, the recruiter has the young man or woman go to the local county courthouse to request their record to be "unsealed" so they can show the military. What shows up in the FBI's Interstate Identification Index and what does not show up is very nuanced and complicated. And there are often issues where the different databases do not talk to each other. Understandably, you will not hear these same officials tout or say the reality of the situation out loud very often. I will never advise anyone lie to the government, unless a high-quality attorney has advised them to. For the purposes of FAA medical examiners, I as a non-expert assume everyone should always be truthful with them every time, always, and I will adhere to this. I would not be surprised if those rare niche exception reasons exist. I don't need to go exploring and/or looking for those reasons. I'm sure that there are investigators who go in to AMEs posing as patients. Obviously they are lying when they are investigating. The "experts" will be the first to tout not to omit anything to the FAA, but then the same powers will say "don't tell the FAA anything extra or anything they don't need to know." For my particular history, I will be totally truthful about anything and everything with the AME. I would hope the AME would advocate for me, although I do not know if they are formally in my corner the same way a traditional medical provider is supposedly formally in my corner. Obviously, every AME, like every human is primarily concerned with self preservation and their career and license and reputation is their primary concern, not to mention, $$$. Such is life.

I hope nobody lacking in the scruples uses my decent but small amount of likely-correct legal knowledge to leverage fraud. That seldom works out for people. Not worth it.

For the record, some US states interpret the Constitution and/or its amendments to say there is no such thing as expungement or sealing. It depends on the state if they even have a mechanism to seal juvenile records. Or whether it is automatically sealed or you have to request it to be sealed. And, whether it can be temporarily unsealed or whether it's permanent. Not to mention pardons. If a person wants to become an expert on how all that works, they should probably go get a Juris Doctorate.

Everyone seems to keep hitting the don't lie horse over and over again. In my initial comment, I unequivocally made clear I will not be lying. I will not be. Does lying work for some people? The sad reality is that some will slip through. Many will subsequently pay the price. I have zero interest in that. I consider myself a person of strong integrity. Didn't Antonio Montana once say, but what does a man have, but his word? Actually, I think he may have put it less politely than that. My integrity goes both ways, though, as you can see. I simply do not lie, or omit facts, even if it's 'for a good cause.' Something that has at time been to the chargin of others.

When people successfully lie to the AME, that's what ultimately probably creates more red tape and drama for everyone else going forward. Pretty soon, all the extra regulations just ruin the whole noble vocation of flying. I'm guessing.

With my military background, I'm not sure how any bozo could even allege it would benefit someone like me to lie. The FAA has burned other veterans before for omitting things from their FAA medical that were present in their military medical records. This is very easily visible on Google.

I also do not get much legal advice or put stock in Reddit, or anything else. I consider everything carefully. Most of what I just told you is from speaking with Field Grade Officers who happen to seem to like me, (some of whom are attorneys, some of whom are recruiters, some of whom are medical doctors), some of whom are good, some of whom are bad; And talking to attorneys, both military and civilian, some of whom are Assistant District Attorneys, some of whom are good, and some of whom are bad. I'm also very passionate about the law, and I try to be the best barracks lawyer I can be, because the junior enlisted don't have a lot of help, and mistakes are frequently made.

Thank you all.

There is no such thing as patient-privilege because you are not their patient.

Can this be really true? You must just sign that they can tell the FAA anything and everything? And even then, they can't tell anyone at the FAA, they can only tell the FAA doctors and/or FAA people with the right up-to-date HIPAA certifications? And there must still be patient privledge regardless? The AME cannot tell anyone else, I hope? They can't tell their kids or their neighbors or the local private detective or police man who comes up, depending to see your AME medical records without a subpoena or warrant? So, I hope and assume there is such a thing as patient privilege.

Perhaps, the reality is the AME is a normal-ish doctor, until you do MedXpress, and then from then on, anything you have told them during the consult and/or before HAS to be reported to the medical people at FAA?

 

[Ed Haywood]

Don't try to noodle through this yourself. It is a very specialized set of rules by an omnipotent bureaucracy that will not make sense to anyone not trained in the intricacies of it.

Go find a HIMS and pay for a consultation. Proceed from there.

Consider getting your sport pilot license. Find out whether you really like flying and have the aptitude before going down the Class 1-2-3 magical mystery tour.

Important: do not do anything stupid to get booted from the military. Honorable service will be lifetime proof that you grew out of your youthful rambunctiousness. Consider becoming a non-drinker for a few years. A DUI will get you a criminal record AND an OTH, which will hang around your neck for life.

 

[HardNope]

Been there done that, though for a no damage traffic ticket that cast me into the hell of “HIMS”, you want to avoid that by all means.

If you don’t even know if you want to really do this for work, just start training now under the new sport pilot (MOSAIC) rules, use your drivers license as a medical for now. These days you can fly most of the same fleet you would be flying at this point in your journey anyways.

If you need to track pee for the administrative FAA nonsense, you can do that while learning to fly and flying under sport.

Have a good AME under the recommended and under the direction of a good versed FAA lawyer (look up Anthony Ison) send your packet when all the Is are Ts crossed, and should be a smooth transition as your hours count just the same under sport.

Understand this now and it will save you tons, a good deal of professional types who rushed 0-hero don’t even get this, the FAA medical is 10% about your actual health and real modern evidence based medicine and 90% is pure administration for the sake of administration (think the Vogons of hitchhikers guide to the galaxy)

*posted anonymously because I don’t want to air my administrative fopas

 

[Evel Knievel]

Don't try to noodle through this yourself. It is a very specialized set of rules by an omnipotent bureaucracy that will not make sense to anyone not trained in the intricacies of it.

Go find a HIMS and pay for a consultation. Proceed from there.

Consider getting your sport pilot license. Find out whether you really like flying and have the aptitude before going down the Class 1-2-3 magical mystery tour.

Important: do not do anything stupid to get booted from the military. Honorable service will be lifetime proof that you grew out of your youthful rambunctiousness. Consider becoming a non-drinker for a few years. A DUI will get you a criminal record AND an OTH, which will hang around your neck for life.

When you have a CDL and/or merchant mariner credential and/or pilot license and/or are in the military, having even one drink before getting behind the wheel is only worthy of a word I know we are not supposed to say anymore; Retarded

 

[Ed Haywood]

When you have a CDL and/or merchant mariner credential and/or pilot license and/or are in the military, having even one drink before getting behind the wheel is only worthy of a word I know we are not supposed to say anymore; Retarded

At the end of my military career I was in acting command a few times and had to make punishment decisions on a few DUI events. I was merciless. I felt like I had to be that way because I've also seen young troops sent home to their families in a box. Way too easy for things to get out of hand on Saturday night when you are 20 and bulletproof. Knowing the Old Man will come down on you like a ton of bricks is a necessary deterrent.

 

[Evel Knievel]

At the end of my military career I was in acting command a few times and had to make punishment decisions on a few DUI events. I was merciless. I felt like I had to be that way because I've also seen young troops sent home to their families in a box. Way too easy for things to get out of hand on Saturday night when you are 20 and bulletproof. Knowing the Old Man will come down on you like a ton of bricks is a necessary deterrent.

I can see how the super wealthy, like the Tiger Woods and Paul Pelosi's of the world, find themselves drinking often. The behind-the-wheel aspect of it is even less excusable, because they can afford chauffeurs. But anyway, I will never fathom how people who drink nightly or even every weekend have energy to get big things done the next day, and get them accomplished competently. This isn't just against servicemen. How do commercial fishermen, or roofers pound six or twelve beers, then go do their work the next day? I will also never understand how normal middle-class people can happily swipe their card to buy alcoholic beverages regularly at the store, not to mention at brick-and-mortar sit-down businesses, where pricing is truly outrageous. I think it is absolutely the most fiscally nonsensical thing ever, and that is what hurts for me, I don't need any other motivations for not drinking regularly. But maybe I am just too stingy, and too busy. I did a lot more drinking at age 16, 17, 18, and 19 than I have ever done since. Mostly because I thought it was cool and/or thought that was how people derived social credit, and also because when you're a man that young, you feel like you need to 'hang out with friends' regularly, or whatever. How do these SNCOs, with wives and kids and families, have time to drink often, not to mention time to get DUIs? I just don't get it. I do have a lot of big drinkers who are relatives, and I wonder if that is the root of problems for, not me, but the source of the problem for a lot of other people. They get to thinking society expects them to drink regularly? I have no idea. Knock on wood I ever get DUI/DWI, there really is seldom an excuse short of involuntary intoxication, which is incredibly rare.

 

[KE5BM]

The climate of the Coast Guard, at least has changed drastically in 20 years regarding DUIs. When I first started, it was almost a badge of honor...something to laugh about and bust someone's balls over that they couldn't drive on the station anymore due to a DUI. Just last year, however I had a top performer make a very poor decision and got pulled for DUI. It took me several weeks and many, MANY conversations with people I have to call sir and ma'am to fight against an immediate discharge. It is nowadays considered in the same category as murder, SA, and crimes against children.

 

[Evel Knievel]

The climate of the Coast Guard, at least has changed drastically in 20 years regarding DUIs. When I first started, it was almost a badge of honor...something to laugh about and bust someone's balls over that they couldn't drive on the station anymore due to a DUI. Just last year, however I had a top performer make a very poor decision and got pulled for DUI. It took me several weeks and many, MANY conversations with people I have to call sir and ma'am to fight against an immediate discharge. It is nowadays considered in the same category as murder, SA, and crimes against children.

I see too many servicemen assume their career is over, when in reality a high-quality civilian attorney could likely easily defeat a DUI and/or allow them to plead guilty to a lesser charge, such as reckless driving or, as California calls one of their charges, 'Reckless Driving with Alcohol.' Most junior enlisted have the legal navigational skills of an alcoholic Roomba in a court room with no map, and it seems like no SNCOs ever want to jump in and suggest they actually plead not guilty. They just go 'OH. My career is over!', and they bend over for the man and/or completely just go limp and give up. 'Boo hoo me'. Nevertheless, 99.9% of the time, the DUI could've simply been avoided by not driving and/or not drinking, we should keep that in mind. We servicemen immediately following DUI arrest go talk to their chain, they would be better off using their Article 31 and Fifth Amendment rights and not talking to their chain of command about a recent alleged DUI arrest.

I actually think the moral/ethical failings of someone driving the speed limit otherwise lawfully and getting pulled over with no probable cause nor exigent circumstances, and/or headlamp out or improper display of license plate or expired tag or something meaningless, and getting a DUI and then blowing a 1.0 or 0.9 at the station are relatively low or nonexistent in the eyes of reasonable people, and/or God... If it was the year 1960, that would not be cause for concern. Nevertheless, the ramifications and codified repercussions are severe, and we have to treat it like it's a big deal.

Operating a semitrailer truck, cargo plane, or Maersk supertanker while voluntarily intoxicated, now that is a different story.

I don't know about the Coast Guard, but in other branches of service, one of the things junior enlisted like to rightly point out as a double standard is how common it is for SNCOs to be retained for DUI, and I have seen company grade officers retained too, although that they keep extra hush-hush, while junior enlisted are treated like the company punching bags because they got a DUI. If a Corporal gets a DUI, he should be punished, but a Sergeant First Class or Chief Petty Officer or Technical Sergeant should be held to a much higher standard. Of course, the bean counters have other motives.

 

[KE5BM]

For the Coast Guard, none of what you have just said is accurate. The way our alcohol/drug policy is written is that if it is known it happened, (i.e. you got a ticket and BAC results) regardless of the legal outcome you will be discharged - even if the case is dismissed in the civilian courts (which happened with my most recent case). No civilian lawyer has the jurisdiction to change that because it falls under administrative authorities as opposed to criminal. Your only hope is a command willing to fight for you (as I did with my most recent case) to convince the chain of command all the way up to HQ that you're worth saving. It's not an easy fight so most commands don't take it on. My own command judgement was questioned by my immediate supervisor at one point. Further, there is no "good ole boy" system here when it comes to DUI or SA/SH. Not anymore, at least. I've seen a number of E8/E9 and senior officers be shown the door early after a DUI or SA/SH in recent years. We get a quarterly report to advertise these cases to our crews. Again, I can't speak for the other services.

To be clear, Art. 31 and 5A doesn't apply when you are arrested - it applies when you are QUESTIONED or investigated. As a servicemember you have a duty to report - but ONLY report. Once you report an arrest, your Art. 31 and 5A protections take effect. There's case study on this you can read here. It's not the DUI that got the member in trouble so much, it's that she didn't report. Failure to report has got many people (and a few "sea lawyers") in much more trouble than necessary. Remember the guy I mentioned above who got advice from Reddit? Yeah, he's one such example. He was using COVID restrictions as an excuse to stay home and consume illicit drugs. Someone told him he was going to be drug tested immediately upon return and would go to the brig, so he went AWOL. In reality, it would have been a simple administrative action and he would have gone home the same day. At that point, he could have even requested services and been provided a path to retention but instead, because he listened to Redditiots he piled up more offenses. Additionally, if your position requires any level of security clearance a failure to report can be an instakill for that regardless of further administrative actions. That whole trustworthiness thing, you know.

I actually have a member right now making his way through the court system for 3 misdemeanors that will likely get dismissed...but he did not report. Went to the town where the alleged offenses took place, surrendered himself to police, was arrested, booked, and then released on bail. He failed to inform us that any of this happened. That will be a problem he answers to in the next couple weeks assuming he is not in jail this time next week. How did we find out, then? Well - civilian authorities have a duty to notify when they arrest a servicemember. Some jurisdictions don't know about this - most do. Especially the ones around high concentrations of military members as in this case.

But...all of this can be avoided with what you just said yourself:

99.9% of the time, the DUI could've simply been avoided by not driving and/or not drinking

I know we've gone way off topic from what your original questions were. I guess everything I've said to you so far and the advice you've received from some very knowledgeable and experienced people above (including a Senior AME) is this: Quit doing internet research and talk to the people who actually make the decisions/determinations. If a pilot's seat is your goal, you need to follow a very specific process to get there. It starts with an AME consult - not Reddit. Hell, not even PoA because few of us are AMEs or lawyers - just people with experience and (sometimes) reasonable opinions.

 

[Evel Knievel]

For the Coast Guard, none of what you have just said is accurate. The way our alcohol/drug policy is written is that if it is known it happened, (i.e. you got a ticket and BAC results) regardless of the legal outcome you will be discharged - even if the case is dismissed in the civilian courts (which happened with my most recent case). No civilian lawyer has the jurisdiction to change that because it falls under administrative authorities as opposed to criminal. Your only hope is a command willing to fight for you (as I did with my most recent case) to convince the chain of command all the way up to HQ that you're worth saving. It's not an easy fight so most commands don't take it on. My own command judgement was questioned by my immediate supervisor at one point. Further, there is no "good ole boy" system here when it comes to DUI or SA/SH. Not anymore, at least. I've seen a number of E8/E9 and senior officers be shown the door early after a DUI or SA/SH in recent years. We get a quarterly report to advertise these cases to our crews. Again, I can't speak for the other services.

To be clear, Art. 31 and 5A doesn't apply when you are arrested - it applies when you are QUESTIONED or investigated. As a servicemember you have a duty to report - but ONLY report. Once you report an arrest, your Art. 31 and 5A protections take effect. There's case study on this you can read here. It's not the DUI that got the member in trouble so much, it's that she didn't report. Failure to report has got many people (and a few "sea lawyers") in much more trouble than necessary. Remember the guy I mentioned above who got advice from Reddit? Yeah, he's one such example. He was using COVID restrictions as an excuse to stay home and consume illicit drugs. Someone told him he was going to be drug tested immediately upon return and would go to the brig, so he went AWOL. In reality, it would have been a simple administrative action and he would have gone home the same day. At that point, he could have even requested services and been provided a path to retention but instead, because he listened to Redditiots he piled up more offenses. Additionally, if your position requires any level of security clearance a failure to report can be an instakill for that regardless of further administrative actions. That whole trustworthiness thing, you know.

I actually have a member right now making his way through the court system for 3 misdemeanors that will likely get dismissed...but he did not report. Went to the town where the alleged offenses took place, surrendered himself to police, was arrested, booked, and then released on bail. He failed to inform us that any of this happened. That will be a problem he answers to in the next couple weeks assuming he is not in jail this time next week. How did we find out, then? Well - civilian authorities have a duty to notify when they arrest a servicemember. Some jurisdictions don't know about this - most do. Especially the ones around high concentrations of military members as in this case.

But...all of this can be avoided with what you just said yourself:


I know we've gone way off topic from what your original questions were. I guess everything I've said to you so far and the advice you've received from some very knowledgeable and experienced people above (including a Senior AME) is this: Quit doing internet research and talk to the people who actually make the decisions/determinations. If a pilot's seat is your goal, you need to follow a very specific process to get there. It starts with an AME consult - not Reddit. Hell, not even PoA because few of us are AMEs or lawyers - just people with experience and (sometimes) reasonable opinions.

A varsity team sea lawyer would say that if you do more than your duty to report and start telling your chain of command things like "I'm dumb for having done it", "I knew it was wrong, I shouldn't have done it", "I had 4 beers at the bar" well, now you confessed to drinking and driving. If all you do is report "I recieved a DWI from civilian authorities on date such and such", and ultimately you get the charges reduced via plea bargain and/or a full blown dismissal of all criminal charges, well then an actual sea lawyer, a barred attorney, whether it be civilian or judge advocate, can claim that you never in fact drank and drove to the legal defintiion of DUI, and/or perhaps never were voluntarily intoxicated behind the wheel at all, and potentially make it much harder for the military to separate you and/or reduce you in rank and/or remove your recommendation for promotion. If the charges are dismissed before a trial convenes, then how is your chain of command going to view the evidence? Can they do a FOIA with the arresting authorities? I have no idea. But suddenly, by just behaving a little more intelligently, you have made it way more difficult for the chain of command to somehow get a good amount of evidence of whether you were even drinking and driving in the first place. If it was a full dismissal, now they have to ask questions like 'was it erroneous?' 'Was he voluntarily intoxicated'? 'Was the DUI for drinking, or something else?' 'Could he have been taking prescription medication in a way that was endorsed by a real doctor? (the DOD/CG doctors should know that). 'was evidence obtained illegally?' - if it was obtained illegally, and that was the reason for dismissal, but you told your command you were 'drinking, sorry, I knew it was wrong' - well now you have made it easy for them to give justification to ad-sepp you in less-than-fully-honorable conditions. Make their life difficult and never give them more stuff to throw at you if you can lawfully do so.

I had an E-4 service member recently get a DUI from civilian authorities, and he was in a state where the military gets their first DUI filed and dismissed if they go through a diversion program, assuming they meet a couple of other prerequisites. I think there was zero negative action in terms of paperwork.

31 and 5A does apply to almost everything, not just investigation and questioning. You do not have to wait to assert your Article 31(b) UCMJ rights until after you have been read an article 31 warning, you can assert your right to silence before or at any time. But you're correct, you can not skirt a duty to report under the auspices of 31 or 5A. Although for all I know, you can ask the arresting authorities to inform, and/or inform the chain of command via writing and/or use an intermediary third party to inform them. Perhaps you can drop a notice on a desk. If it were me, I might throw in "I am confident I will obtain a dismissal." and then your OIC might ask something in response like "SO ARE YOU SAYING YOU WEREN'T DRINKING AND DRIVING?" You could respond that you do not want to answer that question and assert your right to silence. Better to be silent than to lie, typically.

To pivot from the dumb topic of drinking, doing drugs as an adult is so dumb; actually, it's probably dumb in general. But anyway, it's double or triple dumb as an adult and a servicemember. But when people get called up for urinalysis, we often say better to go UA than to fail. Do ya'll have different guidelines? I don't know if it's true, but I've heard stories of people being ****birds, and they go tell their chain, "I'm likely to fail this drug test today". The chain of command supposedly in these stories responds, "hey, we aren't gonna obscure this by throwing this under the rug and protect you, but go UA, leave immediately, we'll run you UA and throw the book at you for that instead of failed urinalysis."

As far as actually talking about the intended topic, I intend to try to get a consult with a 'Senior', not 'Advanced' nor regular AME, based on teh advice of ya'll. I will try calling them on a business day. I must admit I'm very nervous about the process; I hope they are willing to answer a lot of questions.

Thank you all so much

 

[Ed Haywood]

I will try calling them on a business day. I must admit I'm very nervous about the process; I hope they are willing to answer a lot of questions.

No need to be nervous, a consultation is a free pass. Nothing is on the record at that point. If you don't like what they have to say, it doesn't go any further.

That said, it's not FREE. You'll have to schedule an appointment and pay a fee. I paid 200 bucks for 30 minutes. Well worth it in my case.

 

[Evel Knievel]

No need to be nervous, a consultation is a free pass. Nothing is on the record at that point. If you don't like what they have to say, it doesn't go any further.

That said, it's not FREE. You'll have to schedule an appointment and pay a fee. I paid 200 bucks for 30 minutes. Well worth it in my case.

I hate to admit it but $200 is CHEAP!

Is it normal to need more than one consultation with the same AME?

I'm not as nervous about the consult as I am about spending a bunch of money on the AME process with the however slim possibility I get screwed over and/or some AME could be incompetent and then I wasted a bunch of time and/or money, but such is life. Maybe most of all the AMEs are pretty good

 

[HardNope]

I hate to admit it but $200 is CHEAP!

Is it normal to need more than one consultation with the same AME?

I'm not as nervous about the consult as I am about spending a bunch of money on the AME process with the however slim possibility I get screwed over and/or some AME could be incompetent and then I wasted a bunch of time and/or money, but such is life. Maybe most of all the AMEs are pretty good

I told you exactly how to do this, as I have been down this road, oh well

 

[Evel Knievel]

I told you exactly how to do this, as I have been down this road, oh well

I think I missed a your comment, embarrassingly. My apologies. The vogons thing is truly funny.

When you say save me tons, is that money, or aggravation? I know you might respond both

I was considering sport pilot but I really think it doesnt make sense to do anything less than class 1. If I successfully or automatically get a class 3, and I want to upgrade to class 2, or upgrade to class 1, and get a denial, denial, all my sport pilot stuff is gone. Im just not sure it makes sense to waste precious money on civilian flying if I can never get at least a class 2. Hell, class 1.


You mentioned an aviation attorney. I have no history of lying to the FAA. I have no history of aviation-relared misconduct. In fact, i have no history of even talking to anyone in aviation until just the other day. May I ask why you recommend an attorney? Is that something I should be thinking about?

Thank you!

 

[Evel Knievel]

I told you exactly how to do this, as I have been down this road, oh well

I'm looking at your two comments, and I'm unsure if you actually addressed potential AME horror stories, misconduct, and/or how to avoid a bad AME

 

[HardNope]

I think I missed a your comment, embarrassingly. My apologies. The vogons thing is truly funny.

When you say save me tons, is that money, or aggravation? I know you might respond both

I was considering sport pilot but I really think it doesnt make sense to do anything less than class 1. If I successfully or automatically get a class 3, and I want to upgrade to class 2, or upgrade to class 1, and get a denial, denial, all my sport pilot stuff is gone. Im just not sure it makes sense to waste precious money on civilian flying if I can never get at least a class 2. Hell, class 1.


You mentioned an aviation attorney. I have no history of lying to the FAA. I have no history of aviation-relared misconduct. In fact, i have no history of even talking to anyone in aviation until just the other day. May I ask why you recommend an attorney? Is that something I should be thinking about?

Thank you!

No worries

You guessed it, also TIME

Well you can still be working toward your commercial while you work all the pre reqs for the FAA nonsense out, when you submit your first application all should be a formality, this is how someone serious does their medical, when you give the med express number you already know how it’s going to go, no variables


Sigh, the “I only need an attorney if I did something wrong”, let me save you some future headaches, drop that thought process.

The FAA is administrative, given a good enough atty enough time and money, and most importantly enough box checking, they'll practically give a first class to a potato

That said, even if you can do 200 one handed pushups, have a photographic memory, 190 IQ, but you had on of a handful of real world medical nothing burgers that the FAA has a fit over, you aren’t worthy of their trophy medical. It’s not real medicine


LOTS of good AMEs, but asking a AME to work something like this out is like asking a PFC to plan a military campaign.

 

[HardNope]

I'm looking at your two comments, and I'm unsure if you actually addressed potential AME horror stories, misconduct, and/or how to avoid a bad AME

A good atty like the one I mentioned will be able to recommend someone who is good and knows the bad ones.

They have much more inside baseball having ordered records, deposed FAA employees, gone beyond the FAA on tuff cases, and so on

 

[Evel Knievel]

No worries

You guessed it, also TIME

Well you can still be working toward your commercial while you work all the pre reqs for the FAA nonsense out, when you submit your first application all should be a formality, this is how someone serious does their medical, when you give the med express number you already know how it’s going to go, no variables


Sigh, the “I only need an attorney if I did something wrong”, let me save you some future headaches, drop that thought process.

The FAA is administrative, given a good enough atty enough time and money, and most importantly enough box checking, they'll practically give a first class to a potato

That said, even if you can do 200 one handed pushups, have a photographic memory, 190 IQ, but you had on of a handful of real world medical nothing burgers that the FAA has a fit over, you aren’t worthy of their trophy medical. It’s not real medicine


LOTS of good AMEs, but asking a AME to work something like this out is like asking a PFC to plan a military campaign.

Just to confirm, your recommendation is to get sport pilot to begin with, and then as a mildly experienced sport pilot with quite a bit of hours, ONCE I can get the ball rolling via Attorney(s) and HIMS AME(s), I can suddenly get a first class certificate, and then I already have a decent amount of sport pilot hours by the time I earn a first class certificate, so I can quickly and eaisly get a PPL, and then maybe knock out instrument rating and Commercial rating? Is that the plan? Or is the plan to get sport pilot now, then third class, then jump to first class? Just wondering? Maybe both plans are sometimes used at the discretion of high quality attorneys and/or high quality AMEs?

 

[bbchien]

I also had a very minor concussion that required no subsequent treatment when I was age 17 or age 18. Just once. I guess the FAA may care a ton about that too.

I'm also very concerned about this, which I just lifted directly from a Reddit post: "They wanted medical records, prescription history, current prognosis, etc and gave me 60 days to send it back (I received the letter after 25 days had already elapsed..)"

(1) This is why you get it all together BEFORE you make any application. Because you can't possibly get it all done in 60 days and then you get the denial. Get EVERYTHING addressed first. How are you gonna squeeze 6 months orf urine proven sobriety into 60 days? That's a built in FAIL.

(2) Testing is anywhere in the CONUS, that Labcorp or Quest has a lab. Very little travel unless you are in Eastern MT or the Western Dakotas.

(3) You haven't said anything about where in the CONUS you are located. In some locations YOU BETTER TRAVEL. In others there are well qualified folks about. But you can dither all you want; you need to get started on an FAA std. "demonstrate abstinence" plan because the 6 month limit B4 any serious consideration is a hard line. You may not have heard of the concept, but the concept is called "hire expertise". And in this case it's hire a HIMS AME, not your community local AME "for whom aviation is a sideline" guy (these are the guys that "hard nope" is talking about).

(4) I'm amazed you're asking the internet for advice. You never get more than for what you have paid.

"Get off your duff soldier and get moving"....a quote from a long ago O4 (Who was responsible for all the enlisted guys in the squadron). The rest of us considered his job to be "penalty duty" but he did a damned fine job of it. That we called, "leadership".

HIMS AMEs are listed on the FAAs "find an AME page" at the bottom. Choose well and get off your buff. There are only 100 of us and we know who everyone is....all the consultants and when/how to use them.

B
(Long ago O3)

 

[Evel Knievel]

An

A good atty like the one I mentioned will be able to recommend someone who is good and knows the bad ones.

They have much more inside baseball having ordered records, deposed FAA employees, gone beyond the FAA on tuff cases, and so on

And I didn't mention it, but I absolutely will be reaching out to an FAA medical certificate attorney, assuming my phrasing of how they stylize their firms is correct. Any recommendations are appreciated, but I do not expect any recommendations. Any advice about avoiding bad attorneys? And also, do you suspect the initial consultation will be free? I am prepared to pay. Also, is the goal to get an attorney before the AME? After? Which comes first, the attorney or the AME? Is it important the AME and the attorney be on good terms? Will they regularly be corresponding and coordinating with each other? I have to scroll back up, but I believe you mentioned attorneys telling the certificate-seeker which AMEs to avoid, so I suspect obtaining an attorney before the AME might be the ingenious way. Also, do you suspect and speculate most people pay their attorney in installments, or do customers, after the prior brief small initial consult fee, likely pay their attorney a second-and hopefully final-time, i.e. one giant lump sum up front, and hope that everything goes to plan, and probably they may not have to make additional payments, and ideally two payments can carry forward until the end? Obviously whenever you pay anyone in such a manner you risk they don't follow through, however slim the risk may be

 

[Evel Knievel]

This is why you get it all together BEFORE you make any application. Because you can't possibly get it all done in 60 days and then you get the denial. Get EVERYTHING addressed first. how are you gonnoa squeeze 6 months orf urine proven sobriety into 60 days? That's a built in FAIL.

Testing is anywhere in the CONUS, that Labcorp or Quest has a lab.

You haven't said anything about where in the CONUS you are located. In some locations YOU BETTER TRAVEL. In others there are well qualified folks about. But you can dither all you want; you need to get started on an FAA std. "demonstrate abstinence" plan because the 6 month limit B4 any serious consideration is a hard line. You may not have heard of the concept, but the concept is called "hire expertise". And in this case it's hire a HIMS AME, not your community local your family practice "aviation is a sideline" guy (these are the guys that "hard nope" is talking about).

I'm amazed you're asking the internet for advice. You never get more than for what you have paid.

"Get off your duff soldier and get moving"....a quote from a long ago O4 (Who was responsible for all the enlisted guys in the squadron). The rest of us considered his job to be "penalty duty" but he did a damned fine job of it. That we called, "leadership".

HIMS AMEs are listed on the FAAs "find an AME page" at the bottom. Choose well and get off your buff. There are only 100 of us and we know who everyone is.

B
(Long ago O3)

I did not realize until now that I was speaking to the famous Dr. Chien. It's an honor, sir. Thank you for commenting.

The LabCorp/Quest thing is awesome. I recall they have a plethora of locations everywhere. Will they be randomly calling, texting, emailing, or otherwise telling me at 0800AM [SURPRISE, DRIVE TO YOUR NEAREST LABCORP FOR URINALYSIS BEFORE CLOSE OF BUSINESS] ??? That might be difficult with the military and other careers. If I miss a day, do we have to start over? Am I a fraudster at that point, and I get bad marks? I will beat a dead horse just in case; I pee in cups all the time at work, I have zero issue with that part of it. I'm just wondering how fickle it is. If I'm on a vessel for 90 days without coming to port... Well...I guess I need to prepare for that possibility ahead of time and research the dangers before agreeing to an uncompromising schedule. It is really too bad there is no spinal tap and/or hair follicle alternative that is more invasive but requires fewer separate, disparate visits over many months/years.

I am so all over the place as far as geographic planning and home buying that I suspect I'm gonna be doing some flying to meet with an AME. Also, do you suspect I will be meeting with the AME in-person face to face a lot? Or is their primary responsibility the drug testing scheduling, managing third-party appointments, and organizing records? If so, I would presume I would seldom meet face-to-face? If the AME and I seldom meet face-to-face, then I'm not sure their and my geographic position matters a whole lot; Assuming I am not a total bonehead, and I am in fact thinking intelligently, my proximity to LabCorp/Quest and my proximity to the third-party aviation neuropsychotist and other providers probably is a whole lot more important than proximity to the HIMS AME?

Also, may I ask, would ya'll speculate I'm genuinely expected to never drink again as long as I am an FAA certificate-holding pilot? On my Fortieth wedding anniversary? The day of my daughter's wedding? The Tricentennial? If the answer is 'FAA-medical certificate holders with a documented substance abuse history are expected to never drink anything ever again if they ever want to renew their certificate in the future', then I am prepared to behave that way if that's what it takes to fly. I just want to be informed upfront of what is expected of me.