Sexism in aviation?

Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by coolplane47, Nov 13, 2020.

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  1. coolplane47

    coolplane47 Filing Flight Plan

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    Hi Y'all!

    I'm a pretty new female student pilot hoping to pursue a career in corporate aviation.
    Just curious if sexism/misogyny towards women is still a common problem in professional aviation. Has anyone had any experiences with this? I have read several articles that make this sound like a huge issue, but I know that not everything you read on the internet is true (to quote Abraham Lincoln!) and I would like to get a broader view of the subject.

    To all the guys reading this: Please don't be offended! So far, everyone I have met in aviation (part 61 training at a non-towered airport + gliding) has been 110% kind, encouraging, and supportive.

    Thanks in advance!
     
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  2. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    This thread is useless without pics!
     
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  3. Boone

    Boone Ejection Handle Pulled

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    Off to a good start! BTW, to the OP, I hope you have a good sense of humor otherwise you may have chosen the wrong business.
     
  4. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Well, she said she was pretty...
     
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  5. jordane93

    jordane93 Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    99% of professional aviators are fine. You will be ok.
     
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  6. TommyG

    TommyG Pattern Altitude

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    I have seen girls get the upper hand in building hours. Rich guys have planes and always ask the female instructors to go fly with them. Some girls know exactly what is going on and they will sit there look pretty and build hours for free. Other girls don’t get caught up in that game. You can easily figure out what girl gets what reputation around the airport. But I have seen most girls that have earned the respect of everyone all on skill of flying. But you will need s9me thick skin, as do guys need thick skin. Most pilots have a fun busting chops and off color jokes.
     
  7. kaiser

    kaiser Pre-Flight

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    It may still exist but I don’t see it as a huge issue. There is an ever growing support system being established for women in and aspiring to join the aviation industry. As a new student, I encourage you to seek them out. It may yield mentors and networking opportunities. Some orgs also provide scholarships!
     
  8. hindsight2020

    hindsight2020 En-Route

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    Well, Epstein's dead, so you don't have to worry about that anymore. Don't take advice from anyone surnamed Marcinko(va). :eek:

    Jest aside, you'll be fine. Corp aviation has its own brand of politics vis a vis seniority based employers, but it's all a cyclical crapshoot.

    Due to the low relative proportion of females interested in pursuing the non-banker's hour schedules of traveling/RON(remain-over-night) jobs such as airline work/ATP-experience level jobs, it's a wide open lane for the ones who remain.

    As far as grievances are concerned, the statistical reality is that a small percentage of an insignificant number, is an even smaller number. IOW, it's not a primary grievance at all.

    Welcome to POA btw.
     
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2020
  9. falconkidding

    falconkidding Line Up and Wait

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    At a pro level you'll be treated fine. Some people might be uptight and not joke around initially like they would with an all guy crew. Nobody gives a crap about gender if they figure out your cool. Basically if your not giving your captain a lecture about gendered insults cause he said skywest was taxiing like a lil bitch then you'll be fine.
     
  10. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Final Approach

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    From what I’ve seen, the best way to make sexism happen is to accuse employers/coworkers of sex discrimination.

    Other than that, it seems fairly rare.
     
  11. MuseChaser

    MuseChaser Pattern Altitude

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    You won't have any problems, unless of course you are trying to find something offensive hidden in every statement, whether or not it's really there. Pretty much anything can be taken the wrong way. Sexual discrimination and harassment are illegal in all work places. Blatant bad actors are few and far between.... and the rare but unfortunate instances of gender-based hassling exist from both sides of the gender fence.

    The first post actually struck me a little strange, to be honest. The first words I'd type in an introduction of myself wouldn't be "I'm an attractive, handsome new male flight student...." ... Unless of course you were using the term "pretty" to mean "fairly," as in "I'm a fairly new...." ... in which case I just made a jerk of myself. If so... well...I'm way off base with the following comments, and please ignor them...

    If you really meant "pretty," as in "attractive," maybe if that's the way you view yourself first and foremost, followed by female, that would carry over and influence how others view you, too? Maybe start thinking of yourself as an intelligent new flight student, period... or witty, enthusiastic flight student. Forget about what you look like or what gender you are. Others will follow suit.
     
  12. Let'sgoflying!

    Let'sgoflying! Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Welcome to POA, welcome to aviation.
     
  13. Kritchlow

    Kritchlow Final Approach

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    I find professional aviation to be extremely sexist. Indeed, it’s much easier for a female to get the job over a male.
     
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  14. SixPapaCharlie

    SixPapaCharlie May the force be with you

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    Most women join here and leave pretty quickly.
    No idea why. #EyeRollEmoji
     
  15. kath

    kath Administrator Management Council Member

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    Can't speak to "professional aviation" because I'm not a professional pilot... But, in aviation in general:

    Yes, there is. Whether you could call it "common" is debatable, and highly variable depending on the people you surround yourself with, and where you choose to draw the lines between simple insensitivity, callousness, and actual malice, when having the debate.

    Yes, I have some experience. (Again, not amongst professional pilot ranks, just general experience at being in this and other male-dominated fields.)

    It can be overcome. Feel free to PM me if you like.
     
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  16. murphey

    murphey Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    Where are you located? POA is scattered all over the world, altho most are in the US with a few in Canada.
     
  17. Racerx

    Racerx Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I read it as "pretty new". Not "pretty, new". Sexism exists everywhere. I think it depends on how you take it. I didn't care for the first few replies here. They were jokes, but bad ones. If you don't care for that kind of talk speak up. And not just on an anonymous forum. That kills me when people don't speak up. If I've done something wrong, tell me. I try to be careful, but sometimes I'm too dumb to realize what I've done was wrong or offensive.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2020
  18. wilkersk

    wilkersk Pattern Altitude

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    ...Yeah, I suspect this thread, so far, is pretty representative of what the OP should expect. ;)
     
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  19. MadseasoN

    MadseasoN Line Up and Wait

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    Probably not since the 1940's.
     
  20. PlasticCigar

    PlasticCigar Pre-takeoff checklist

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    You’re probably better off joining the 99’s than asking a bunch of conservative middle-aged white men on a semi-anonymous internet forum if sexism is still a “thing.”

    https://www.ninety-nines.org/
     
  21. Groundpounder

    Groundpounder Pattern Altitude

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    Pretty funny that a bunch of men are answering her question.
     
  22. bflynn

    bflynn Final Approach

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    Yes, there is sexism and misogyny. No, it is not rampant. Just like the rest of the US.

    some people never figured it out, others don’t care.
     
  23. JOhnH

    JOhnH Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I don't. Since this board is anonymous, people can act like the jerk that they would not do in person.

    But yeah, sexism still exists although I think it is different than it used to be. Some guys get jealous if they perceive a woman is receiving any extra percs which they themselves would think twice about if it were them receiving them. And some of us guys just can't help looking at pretty women, which I have to admit is pretty rude. But I don't know if that is sexism or not.

    Take @kath up on her offer. She is a woman that has been on the receiving end of some blatant sexism (right here on this board). And she has also earned the respect of a lot of guys that may otherwise be considered sexist. As others have said, for anyone to succeed in a field where they are the minority, they need a healthy dose of humor. And they need an even greater work ethic and effort to prove they deserve respect.

    But welcome to POA. And remember, some guys that act like jerks just think they are being funny, like when @Velocity173 asked for pictures.
     
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  24. Doug Reid

    Doug Reid Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Really...I mean really ?

    I have beach front property in Colorado for sale if any of you are interested...
     
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  25. austin757

    austin757 Pre-Flight

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    Maybe you should stop reading worthless article that are sensational in order to get views, and start focusing on your flight studies. If you want to be a professional aviator, work hard and improve on each and every flight, and you won't have time to think misogyny.
     
  26. MacFly

    MacFly Line Up and Wait

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    You’re asking a bunch of men...in many cases old men... on an internet forum about sexism in aviation. That takes real balls. You’ll be fine.
     
  27. weilke

    weilke Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Has anyone used the phrase 'white knight' yet ?
     
  28. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Oh please, if the OP got offended by a joke that wasn’t even close to being vulgar or sexist, she’s not thin skinned, that’s no skin at all. No levity allowed on POA I guess. Give me a break.

    Ok OP, in all seriousness. Your question is very dated. While a valid concern maybe 50 years or in the military maybe 25-30 years ago (combat exclusion) it’s just not an issue today. There’s a reason for that. Those that went first, had to deal with some hurdles. Over the years, the presence of women in aviation have been much more common, those preconceived prejudices have deteriorated. Now, while women still make up a small percentage of pilots, some logical explanations can be given. The primary driving force is the simple fact not many women feel the need to go the pilot route. Sorry but that’s a fact. One that’s slowly changing but it is what it is. Also, as stated by H2020 above, a lot of women get into the field but due to family priorities, they don’t stay in for the long haul. Seen the same thing in military aviation. Obviously, it’s extremely demanding to be a full time mom and full time pilot and I completely understand this.

    We get this whole sexism question on here about once a year on POA and it’s become tiresome. For those women who think it’s prevalent in the industry, I’d say show me real data that supports your assertion. You won’t find any, other than rumors, assumptions or conjecture. I’ve seen women in both the military and civilian aviation at the highest levels of management. I got hired by a woman. I didn’t even blink an eye to see her in that position.

    I’d also ask, why would you all even think men would rather work with other men when it comes to flying? You think there’s some kind of tight knit boys club and we don’t want outsiders? In my job, none of us even hang out outside of work. You’re nothing but another body filling a seat and I couldn’t care less what you look like. The aircraft doesn’t discriminate on looks, only competence.

    “Our message to the whole business aviation community is our industry is characterized by boundless opportunities for everyone, with lots of different perspectives,”

    https://nbaa.org/flight-department-...ighlights-importance-of-leadership-diversity/
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2020
  29. coolplane47

    coolplane47 Filing Flight Plan

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    Commas are important! If I was pretty I would have used my face in my profile pic, not a pink Taylor craft I found on the internet . . .
    My apologies for the misunderstanding!
     
  30. FORANE

    FORANE En-Route

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    I don't suspect there was a misunderstanding. Just boys being boys...
     
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  31. Kritchlow

    Kritchlow Final Approach

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    Careful now... profile says 16 years old.
     
  32. coolplane47

    coolplane47 Filing Flight Plan

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    I knew I should have lied about my age. . .
     
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  33. catmandu

    catmandu Cleared for Takeoff PoA Supporter

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    I just asked M'lady, 30 years a professional. She says professionally and corporately she finds it almost non-existent. Occasional issues with the general public (still gets tagged as a flight attendant when in uniform).
     
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  34. Everskyward

    Everskyward Experimenter

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    My advice; don’t wear a chip on your shoulder; don’t play the gender card. Your interactions with co-workers will probably have a slightly different flavor because of social expectations, but don’t dwell on it. It’s a double edged sword. There are plusses and minuses. Many times men are harder on other men than they would be on a woman. I am female, and worked as a pilot, with mostly men, for all my career.
     
  35. MuseChaser

    MuseChaser Pattern Altitude

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    And MY heartfelt, embarrassed apologies for misreading your intro. The egg on my face will be ready for serving shortly. You're right, commas save lives...

    Let's eat, Grandma!
    Let's eat Grandma!
     
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  36. coolplane47

    coolplane47 Filing Flight Plan

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    Haha! You're good! I do have skin for the record
     
  37. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Final Approach

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    It’s actually a Champ. ;)
     
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  38. coolplane47

    coolplane47 Filing Flight Plan

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    Oops! Thanks for correcting me
     
  39. EdFred

    EdFred Taxi to Parking

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    Yes it exist, both positively and negatively. You might be given extra opportunity because you are a female and might stand a better chance of acceptance or promotion as companies try and further diversify their flight crew(s). If you start a YouTube Channel and document your progress you'll get millions of views (and could make money to pay for training) whereas if I did, I would get about 12 views.

    Then on the other side of it you'll run into guys that will think you can't fly because you have two X chromosomes and make things difficult for you.

    Oh, and really, asking for pics of a 16 year old? WTF. Joke or not, come on guys, you're old enough to be her great grandfather.
     
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  40. Daleandee

    Daleandee Line Up and Wait

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    Well ... my wife bought me one of these to put in my hangar:

    [​IMG]

    But she also bought one of these for the front porch:

    [​IMG]

    :happydance::happydance::happydance::happydance:
     
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