Selling "for a friend" aircraft ads

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davela

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I see a many ads for aircraft on the Internet, particularly on Barnstormers, marked "selling for a friend" or something very similar. Does anyone know exactly what is going on here? In the used car world this is a major red flag for me, as it can often indicate a scam, or at the very least a "curbsider" who is likely skirting various legal and title issues, etc. I don't have anything against individual entrepreneurship, but for a purchase as expensive as an aircraft, for a buyer, this is worrisome. For instance, who exactly are these "friends", or are they actually wanabe aircraft brokers trying to keep a low profile? Or could it really be that there many aircraft owners, some with fairly sophisticated aircraft they supposedly fly, yet are so techinically inept they can't figure out how to use a website to create and ad with photos of their plane, but must rely on a "friends" to do this deal with the customers? I realize that a careful title search and and dealing directly with the owner is a good safeguard, but the idea of even dealing the "friend" up front rather than the owner in the purchasing process seems a dubious and complicating proposition to me.
 
There is no friend. If there was, they would set up the ad using the real owner's name for him/her.

Probably scammers who are trying to sell planes they don't own. If they get a bite, they then try and buy the plane in question and take their cut.

If they ever asked me, Trade a Plane, etc. should require proof of ownership before a plane is listed.
 
Personally, I have wondered what would happen with my plane if I were to get hit by a bus tomorrow. For most of my plane ownership time, I have been single, and while I have a named executor in my will, they are not aircraft-savvy and might struggle to figure out how to dispose of the asset. We've talked briefly about it, and the best I could offer was, "Find an aircraft broker." I'm (recently) married now, and while my wife is no more aircraft-savvy than my previous executor, I'm a lot more concerned about burdening her if I leave this realm, and I am working to make sure she is well-prepared to deal with my stuff if she has to.

But I do wonder how many other plane owners have similarly weak end-of-life provisions, and what happens to their planes if/when it falls to someone unfamiliar to deal with them.

I think "scammer" is probably most likely for the "selling for a friend" situations, but I wonder if any of them might be "selling for a widow(er)" or "selling for a deceased friend" situations.
 
In some states, aircraft sold individual to individual do not incur sales tax where aircraft that are handled by brokers do. The broker is getting a commission, but the sale is not going through the brokerage or an actual friend is being paid to show the airplane and answer inquiries. And of course, there are scams.
 
WDD said:
There is no friend. If there was, they would set up the ad using the real owner's name for him/her.

Probably scammers who are trying to sell planes they don't own. If they get a bite, they then try and buy the plane in question and take their cut.

If they ever asked me, Trade a Plane, etc. should require proof of ownership before a plane is listed.
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If the aircraft is in an LLC, what what documents would you require to post the ad?
 
God knows there’s plenty of aircraft brokers that could easily handle estate sale.
Probably money well spent to dispose of an estate aircraft.
 
Jim_R said:
and while I have a named executor in my will, they are not aircraft-savvy and might struggle to figure out how to dispose of the asset. We've talked briefly about it, and the best I could offer was, "Find an aircraft broker." I'm (recently) married now, and while my wife is no more aircraft-savvy than my previous executor, I'm a lot more concerned about burdening her if I leave this realm,
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I’d suggest finding a broker now and giving that name to your wife and/or executor.

My wife and I have talked about that with my garage stuff, and as of now she will “call Bruce.”
 
I’ve called on a couple of airplanes lately. Both of them were registered under a “friends” name and the person on the phone said they had a signed bill of sale.

Hard pass.
 
I'm not suspicious of ads that are selling for a friend. I bought mine like that (though it was a family member, not a friend).

Like any transaction, I'd just insist we use a reputable escrow service and there would be opportunities during the buying process to verify they have the airplane and it belongs to them. If one of those don't check out, then obviously that's a deal-ending red flag.
 
Spend some time at your local airport, look at how old many of the aircraft owners (especially the owners of the non-flying aircraft). Then think about how many of those folks would be able to take pictures of their airplane, write a coherent ad text, list it online (upload the pictures, format the ad, etc.) and handle inquires from the public.

Then re-think why many are selling for a friend.

All that said, always brace yourself if you're going to explore one of those ads. While not usually a scam, it's usually a painful process because neither the broker/friend nor the owner know what they're doing, rarely know what the plane is actually worth market-value wise, and are usually emotionally charged. I bought my current airplane via a friend of the owner; while I'm happy with the plane, the process was as described above in many ways.
 
Datadriver said:
A lot of old timers literally have no ability to write an online ad
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Right. Look at all the posts here saying, "I'd post a picture but I can't figure out how," and people who necropost despite the "this thread is 10 years old" warning because they can't figure out how to start a new thread.
 
Datadriver said:
A lot of old timers literally have no ability to write an online ad
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I run into this a lot trading in old cars/tractors/etc. Gramps doesn't have facebook so the kid/grandkid/wife handles that for them. The only problem I have with it is it tends to make communication more difficult as everything is being relayed back and forth. Sometimes they just give me grandpa's phone# and that simplifies it.
 
MauleSkinner said:
My wife and I have talked about that with my garage stuff, and as of now she will “call Bruce.”
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I saw two garage sale signs in our neighborhood this summer, both simply referencing "Man Junk"

Pretty effective, actually, they were the only two garage sales I went to since moving back to Idaho. Got a few nice things for the shop.
 
GaryM said:
I saw two garage sale signs in our neighborhood this summer, both simply referencing "Man Junk"

Pretty effective, actually, they were the only two garage sales I went to since moving back to Idaho. Got a few nice things for the shop.
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The only thing better than that is a "Divorce Sale". Buddy of mine picked up a set of almost brand new men's golf clubs for $20. He explained to the ex wife the real value was closer to $2000. She said "I know".:D
 
Wouldn't scare me off any more than any other deal. Individuals selling can be a mess, too - they know something's wrong with their plane and they want to dump it... or they can be nice people. A friend might actually be a better way to go because they wouldn't put their name and reputation on someone else's plane unless they were genuinely trying to help... or of course it could be a total scam. There are many similarities that we encounter as humans, but no two scenarios are exactly alike...
 
I always thought it was an owner wanting a buffer between them and the tire-kicking public, but what ‘friend’ would subject themselves to that?
 
No idea if it happens with planes, but people sell vehicles they don't own all the time.

consumer.ftc.gov

Put the brakes on phony online car sales

You can buy practically anything online, including used cars. But before you shell out any hard-earned cash, here’s a warning about scammers trying to sell cars they don’t have or own.
consumer.ftc.gov consumer.ftc.gov

Motor vehicle-related scams pose pitfall - Ohio Attorney General

www.ohioattorneygeneral.gov www.ohioattorneygeneral.gov

Betting with planes it can be easier for a bunch of reasons, one of which is that it might not be on the radar of the consumer protection groups as much.
 
bradg33 said:
Spend some time at your local airport, look at how old many of the aircraft owners (especially the owners of the non-flying aircraft). Then think about how many of those folks would be able to take pictures of their airplane, write a coherent ad text, list it online (upload the pictures, format the ad, etc.) and handle inquires from the public.

Then re-think why many are selling for a friend.
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BARB SEZ I GOTTA SELL THA PLANE HERE IT IS FRESH ANNUAL PERFECT CREAM PUFF NO TIRE KICKERS I KNOW WHAT I GOT GOBBLESS
 
Dana said:
Right. Look at all the posts here saying, "I'd post a picture but I can't figure out how," and people who necropost despite the "this thread is 10 years old" warning because they can't figure out how to start a new thread.
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“The forum software says I need make 50 posts before I can list something for sale. How do I list something for sale?”

Actually, now that I think about it I seem to recall a few “selling for a friend” listings here on PoA.
 
Several pilots at the main airport here have helped sell 2 planes for widows. One of the group is an A&P putting considerable time into both to make them cream puffs/near perfect. On one, the widow wanted the plane to stay in the area and sold it (a Luscombe) for less than the husband paid ... the entire group (5 of them) banded together and bought it ....
 
Would be nice if the people that post for a friend,could supply the information on the plane
 
frfly172 said:
Would be nice if the people that post for a friend,could supply the information on the plane
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See my post above re the "challenges" of trying to transact with the folks in these situations. Sometimes there's a diamond in the rough if you can get through all the BS (and there's usually a lot of it), but always a bit of a gamble going down the road.
 
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