Sell me a Mac!

For me a Mac would never work too much I do requires Windows software (and emulation just does not cut it for me).

Tom... Two things.

1) Just curious what you're doing... Engineering stuff? Definitely stuck on that.

2) It is *not* "emulation" on the Intel-based Macs. Same processor, same OS (with Parallels or Boot Camp), and it doesn't have the performance hit that the older machines running Virtual PC (which *is* emulation) would have - The processor isn't spending its cycles translating any more.

(though I must admit I am not fond of being linked with the Mac-fanatic crowd

Not everyone who uses a Mac is a fanatic by any means. It's just that those of us who are, are pretty loud about it. ;)
 
Not everyone who uses a Mac is a fanatic by any means. It's just that those of us who are, are pretty loud about it. ;)

It's just those of us who own and use both current Macs and Windows tend to think we know the issues better than those who use worn-out arguments from 10 years ago.

...and when somebody posts a message titled, "Help me buy a Mac" we're such fanatics we try to be helpful and take the time to post useful information for the query rather refusing by using worn-out arguments from 10 years ago.
 
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Don't Macs come with the MS Office Suite as well? Heck, even the Student edition of that for PCs is about 150 - 200$.

Negative.

No, they don't. The mac comes with apple's version of office stuff. MS Office for the mac is way old and in need of a refresh. (I think it's supposed to be coming later this year).

Negative again - Even the Apple software is a trial.

What you'll get on a new Mac are trial versions of the latest version of MS Office (2004 - I'm still using 2001 with no problems whatsoever) and a trial version of Apple's "iWork" which includes (so far) Keynote and Pages. Keynote is a presentation package like PowerPoint with (IMHO) much better-looking themes and some really cool transitions. The name hints at the fact that Steve Jobs has been using it to do his Macworld Expo keynote presentations since before it officially came out. Pages is a word processor/page layout type of tool.

Both Keynote and Pages will open and save to their respective MS Office formats if you so choose. Their native format is XML. I don't use PowerPoint any more, but I do still use both Word and Pages 'cuz I haven't taken the time to deprogram the Microsoftishness in my brain when it comes to word processing.

And, let's be honest... There is no commercial program on any platform that can replace Excel. Microsoft did their thing to that segment.

EDIT: iWork costs a whopping $79 for the full version. Sweet. :)
 
Negative.



Negative again - Even the Apple software is a trial.

What you'll get on a new Mac are trial versions of the latest version of MS Office (2004 - I'm still using 2001 with no problems whatsoever) and a trial version of Apple's "iWork" which includes (so far) Keynote and Pages.
Hmm...something is popping into my head...something about a pot and a kettle and the color black?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJ1AWw8ktLQ
 
All this stuff about macs coming with trial software....I thought....wait..yeah, I did read (trying to find the post...this topic comes up a whole bunch apparantly) that one of the benefits of Macs was the lack of preinstalled demoware....

BTW, I don't think I'm trolling this thread, Bill asked for people to sell him, and I figured that meant he wanted the whole picture.

These arguments aren't 10 years old, btw, they still hold water. And its only going to get worse for the Mac now that they've switched to Intel. The ONE thing that I thought Macs had going for them all along was their stability and resistance to crashing and having better hardware.

But now, they're the exact same thing as PCs under the hood, which removes the one thing they had.

That said, I have an honest question: Can I install OSX on a PC, since its based on Intel itself? I'd be interested to dual boot and run real tests. I've never seen OSX for sale though.
 
That said, I have an honest question: Can I install OSX on a PC, since its based on Intel itself? I'd be interested to dual boot and run real tests. I've never seen OSX for sale though.


I think it's been done, but it's not widespread.

And it's against the terms of the license to install it on anything other than Apple branded hardware.
 
To delete the MS Office demo on a new Mac takes doing just that, selecting the icon in the application folder and pressing delete or copy to trash.

Try doing that with the copy of Norton Security Suite that comes with a new PC.

You're also missing the irony that that piece of demoware comes from Microsoft and is trying to get you locked in. (In the past if you saved a .doc you created wouldn't be able to open it after the demo license expired unless you paid up. MS Office sets itself up as the app to open .docs, too, until you undo that. )
 
To delete the MS Office demo on a new Mac takes doing just that, selecting the icon in the application folder and pressing delete or copy to trash.

Try doing that with the copy of Norton Security Suite that comes with a new PC.

It's not so hard, you just run SymNRT.exe.
You're also missing the irony that that piece of demoware comes from Microsoft and is trying to get you locked in. (In the past if you saved a .doc you created wouldn't be able to open it after the demo license expired unless you paid up. MS Office sets itself up as the app to open .docs, too, until you undo that. )
Ok, I was trying to stay out of this. I told him to try a mac, it fit the mission well, but now you're pushing the button that really fires me up.

Here's my question to you...

How can Apple zealots rail on Microsoft's monopolistic lock-in policies without feeling like a complete hypocrite?

1) Apple will not license FairPlay to competitors to allow them to play music purchased in iTunes on competing devices.

2) It is not legal to run OS X on any hardware other than Apple branded hardware.

3) "We'll sue your ass if you get too close to what our upcoming product announcements will be"

There is no vendor out there that locks it's software to it's hardware, nor keeps a tighter grip on it's secrets than Apple. Yet, it's ok when they do it...because they have good intentions. Microsoft has bad intentions so they're the scourge of the planet when they try do it.

Come on, Mike, you're too intelligent to not see the hypocrisy in that line of thinking.
 
It's not so hard, you just run SymNRT.exe.
Ok, I was trying to stay out of this. I told him to try a mac, it fit the mission well, but now you're pushing the button that really fires me up.

Here's my question to you...

How can Apple zealots rail on Microsoft's monopolistic lock-in policies without feeling like a complete hypocrite?

1) Apple will not license FairPlay to competitors to allow them to play music purchased in iTunes on competing devices.


The RIAA specifically prohibts them from doing so.

2) It is not legal to run OS X on any hardware other than Apple branded hardware.

Being that Apple doesn't sell OS X as a standalone product, any such use would not be an upgrade. You're not talking about doing an unauthorized copy are you? :rolleyes:

3) "We'll sue your ass if you get too close to what our upcoming product announcements will be"

I agree. That is nuts.

Apple know they get a lot of mileage and interest by using the intrique.

But saying with a straight face, "They just copied and are shipping what we will have in our next release is also nuts. I know. It's not the same issue.

There is no vendor out there that locks it's software to it's hardware, nor keeps a tighter grip on it's secrets than Apple. Yet, it's ok when they do it...because they have good intentions. Microsoft has bad intentions so they're the scourge of the planet when they try do it.

Come on, Mike, you're too intelligent to not see the hypocrisy in that line of thinking.

What's is "trusted computing" with the DRM chip built in to the PC motherboard all about?
 
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Being that Apple doesn't sell OS X as a standalone product, any such use would not be an upgrade. You're not talking about doing an unauthorized copy are you? :rolleyes:


So let me get this straight.

You don't like the fact that MS sets it's software as the default for opening a file in a format that they created, but it is ok with you that Apple has deliberately made a business decision to NOT create and license a version of their OS (the one that would change the world if only everybody were smart enough to use it) on any hardware other than theirs?

By the way, the default install of iTunes on a PC sets itself as the default player for all file formats. Huh, pot/kettle?
 
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1) Apple will not license FairPlay to competitors to allow them to play music purchased in iTunes on competing devices.
The RIAA specifically prohibts them from doing so.

Why does the RIAA allow Microsoft to license their DRM to other vendors?

I seem to remember the RIAA trying to force Apple into a tiered pricing model as well. Last time I checked all songs were still $.99.

I guess Apple hasn't been trying too hard to get the RIAA's blessing to license their technology, have they?
 
Why does the RIAA allow Microsoft to license their DRM to other vendors?

That is so funny. Name one.

Oh. You mean with Microsoft licensed "Plays for Sure" to MP3 player makers and then came out with the Zune and the Zune Music store that isn't compatible with it...and ISN'T licensed to anyone else?

You mean all the PCs running Windows Media Player? Isn't that an analog to running iTunes on OS X or Windows?

Anyway, I'm not going to defend anybody's DRM. All DRM is evil and it will die a natural death. It just take a while longer.

As I've said, the only iTunes content I have I got for free. I have not bough a single 99 cent song. That DRM kept me from buying an iPod until about a year ago.

I seem to remember the RIAA trying to force Apple into a tiered pricing model as well. Last time I checked all songs were still $.99.

I guess Apple hasn't been trying too hard to get the RIAA's blessing to license their technology, have they?

The word is that Steve has just made it known that iTunes and the iTMS can handle DRM free content. NOT doing that was also a demand of the RIAA. The RIAA will also continue to die a slow death.

Signing off.
 
I am brand new here but this topic (even though it's not aviation related) is something that I have some experience with.

I am a long time PChead and I make no bones about that but I bought an intel based Macbook about a year ago because it was in my best interest work-wise to learn OS X.

To sum up my experience, if you've only ever used Windows and you're switching to OS X there will be a learning curve and it will take you a little while to get comfortable. I'm in IT and I generally learn IT very quickly but it took me a while to get really comfortable with OS X. OS X is by no means bad, in fact I was surprised at how similar it was to XP. However it's kind of a Ford/Chevy thing in that it does pretty much all the same things but does them differently so you have to learn it's quirks before you can get comfortable.

After living with my Macbook and OS X for almost a year, I installed bootcamp and Windows XP about two months ago. Since then, I've booted into OS X maybe twice. Why? Because I've used Windows for so long, I'm still just more comfortable with it and prefer it to OS X. I needed to learn OS X for my line of work but if that wasn't the case or if I had to buy a new laptop today, I'd definately get a PC because while Macs can run Windows natively, Apple driver support is limited for Windows so Macs don't run Windows as well as an equivilent PC would. BTW IME, Paralells is an absolute joke for running Windows.

If you have your sights set on a Mac, you'll probably do fine with it as long as you give yourself time to adjust to the differences between it and Windows and as long as you're willing to buy any critical productivity apps you might need over again.

I don't really want to start or contribute to the OS war in my first post but I thought I'd offer my experience for your consideration since I've made the jump myself. Good luck whichever you choose.
 
After living with my Macbook and OS X for almost a year, I installed bootcamp and Windows XP about two months ago. Since then, I've booted into OS X maybe twice. Why? Because I've used Windows for so long, I'm still just more comfortable with it and prefer it to OS X. I needed to learn OS X for my line of work but if that wasn't the case or if I had to buy a new laptop today, I'd definately get a PC because while Macs can run Windows natively, Apple driver support is limited for Windows so Macs don't run Windows as well as an equivilent PC would. BTW IME, Paralells is an absolute joke for running Windows.

There have been many switchers like Steve Gibson who said in a very short time they decided tehy didn't need Windows at all. Gibson kept making his Windows partition smaller to make more room on teh AMc side until he removed Windows entirely.

I've had no pronelm with Paralleles. I don't know what "drivers" you were trying ti install but I had no prolem running the proprietary and very strict and locked down VPN suite that lets me get into work, which was all would ask of it. If you need to make some USB or other hardware device work then you be asking it to go over the skis a bit but I think they have USB working fairly transparently, too.

Parallels worked fine for me so I never installed native Windows with Boot Camp.

I have the advantage of understanding what's what with a virtual PC. I knew how VMWare worked and Parallels is almost a carbon copy functionality-wise. It's so close I thought at first they had stolen the code.

BTW, I use my real Windows PC to get into work, so I haven't run Parallels/Windows on my Macbook Pro in several months. I think I did run a short session for some troubleshooting I wanted to do but can't even remember what for.
 
What DO you ride?


LOL...I KNEW that comment was going to rile some feathers and get people mad at me.

For the record, at this moment, I ride only occasionally on a dirt bike.

However I have owned the following:
Kawasaki 600
Yamaha 600R
Aprilia Mille
Honda VTX
Yamaha FJR <- favorite bike and best ever! :D

Bill...sorry, it is hard to not generalize on a message board, and I did see "large amount" which does mean that there are many that are not, but I have just seen too many RUB's in the few years I have been riding to not knee-jerk react to "Harley-mania". Sorry man, no offense intended.
 
Tom... Two things.

1) Just curious what you're doing... Engineering stuff? Definitely stuck on that.

2) It is *not* "emulation" on the Intel-based Macs. Same processor, same OS (with Parallels or Boot Camp), and it doesn't have the performance hit that the older machines running Virtual PC (which *is* emulation) would have - The processor isn't spending its cycles translating any more.



Not everyone who uses a Mac is a fanatic by any means. It's just that those of us who are, are pretty loud about it. ;)

Gaming...all kinds from graphics heavy stuff to strategy games to Flight Simulator.

Also...it is BIG news that Garmin is finally porting their stuff to Mac, finally. It just seems to take forever for a lot of things to get to the Mac, unless you dual boot, but then why bother?

Again...not bashing Mac's, they just do not fit my needs (or desires).
 
What is better than Outlook/Exchange? As much as I hate Microsoft I will not be switching from either anytime soon. They are perfect for small and medium business.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ICalendar

I was actually on the (sham) advisory committee to seek out a standard email infrastructure for a certain Fortune 100 company. Unknown to me. before the first call was held the answer was determined to be Outlook/Exchange. I thought it was on the legit so I tried to tell them about Internet standards. You know....where you don't have to have only one choice for the client.

Silly me.

Then they went on to mandate that we had only choice for a web browser client...You know.. in the interest of network security. :goofy:
 
Under bootcamp there is no tap-to-click support, no support for the sudden motion sensor and no support for the ambient light sensor. The desktops also lack bluetooth keyboard and mouse support as well as USB modem support.

As far as Paralells goes, it runs on top of OS X which means that Windows get limited resources (because you're running two OS' at once) and no native access to certain hardware like the video chipset. That means something like Google earth runs like crap (if at all) on Windows under Paralells. Of course most people will wonder why they need to run Google earth under Windows when it runs on OS X as well. The answer is simple. Google earth offers features when running under Windows that simply don't exist at this point in the OS X version and they are features I happen to use regularly.
 
Under bootcamp there is no tap-to-click support, no support for the sudden motion sensor and no support for the ambient light sensor. The desktops also lack bluetooth keyboard and mouse support as well as USB modem support.

Gotcha. Except for the Bluetooth drivers I don't think you'll find PC platforms that have teh hardware to not have drivers for, or do the laptops that have the acceleration devices like IBM/Lenovo, also have an API for it.

As far as Paralells goes, it runs on top of OS X which means that Windows get limited resources (because you're running two OS' at once) and no native access to certain hardware like the video chipset. That means something like Google earth runs like crap (if at all) on Windows under Paralells. Of course most people will wonder why they need to run Google earth under Windows when it runs on OS X as well. The answer is simple. Google earth offers features when running under Windows that simply don't exist at this point in the OS X version and they are features I happen to use regularly.

Stipulated. I don't recommend Parallels for any video intensive app like Flight Simulator. The emulator gives you a PC with the most vanilla devices for a reason: That's about the hardware performance on those devices you can expect. For my purposes it runs as fast for mundane stuff as I could even want. My "screamer" is not perceptively faster for mundane stuff.
 
Now that Apple uses Intel chips in their Macs, I really don't care which you buy. Either way helps my stock price. :D :D :D

To paraphrase a manager I used to work for, "Go forth and buy!" :yes:
 
Now that Apple uses Intel chips in their Macs, I really don't care which you buy. Either way helps my stock price. :D :D :D

To paraphrase a manager I used to work for, "Go forth and buy!" :yes:

You should give me the love, Ghery. I just passed the umpteeth hour of talking myself to exhaustion at work explaining the obvious to various clients about why it's a good idea to let me save the company a million plus dollars per project by using Linux on Intel vs. Unix servers.

I had an easy set of projects project for one application in mind. Through various bits of confusion they told me they had no intentions of moving all of the applications to Linux - then they started having meetings about moving all of the applications to Linux.

If they do convert en masse, it'll save so much money I should be up for a CIO award. :D ...and then I'll get the usual "you're OK" in my performance review next year.
 
What is better than Outlook/Exchange? As much as I hate Microsoft I will not be switching from either anytime soon. They are perfect for small and medium business.

Sadly, for us, Outlook is inadequate, so we use a more-robust contact / docket management system. www.timematters.com

But its email function is weak and buggy.

Maybe we need Exchange server?

Move to Dallas, Jesse, I need to glom onto your talents!
 
1) Apple will not license FairPlay to competitors to allow them to play music purchased in iTunes on competing devices.

And Microsoft won't license the Zune's DRM to competitors either.



2) It is not legal to run OS X on any hardware other than Apple branded hardware.

And that is GOOD. By using a combination of hardware and software, Apple can create a good all-around experience for the user, and avoid a ton of development headaches and incompatibility problems in the process. Honestly, I'm impressed that Microsoft has managed to make Windows run as well as they have, given the hodgepodge of hardware out there.

Also, I don't know how you can use this as an Apple/MS comparison - MS doesn't make their own hardware.

3) "We'll sue your ass if you get too close to what our upcoming product announcements will be"

No, they'll sue you *to find out where their own internal leak was*. They are legitimately protecting trade secrets.

Quite a while back, there was a magazine called MacWeek. They often had reports of Apple hardware that'd be coming out six months to a year away. They'd report on some big new whizbang box, and people would quit buying current machines because they were waiting for the new MacWhizBang. That hurts Apple, and it's perfectly understandable that they'd want to stop it. They just finally got serious about it.
 
All this stuff about macs coming with trial software....I thought....wait..yeah, I did read (trying to find the post...this topic comes up a whole bunch apparantly) that one of the benefits of Macs was the lack of preinstalled demoware....

I think the point made in this thread was that the movie software which the OP asked about is *not* a trial version. Nor is most of the preinstalled stuff.

MS Office is a trial (you don't expect them to include the full version, right? But if they didn't have anything, you'd b*tch that a Mac wouldn't open your .doc files straight out of the box.)

iWork is the only other trial. Both do the same thing. Note... This is the basis of offering you a CHOICE! How 'bout that. ;)

And its only going to get worse for the Mac now that they've switched to Intel. The ONE thing that I thought Macs had going for them all along was their stability and resistance to crashing and having better hardware.

They're stable because of the combination of hardware and software. Once the aforementioned firmware update was applied, my MacBook Pro has been as stable as any Mac I've ever had. Not a single crash since.

That said, I have an honest question: Can I install OSX on a PC, since its based on Intel itself? I'd be interested to dual boot and run real tests. I've never seen OSX for sale though.

You have to hack it to do so. OS X is specifically made for Apple hardware. Despite what Mike says, you CAN buy OS X by itself. Go to http://store.apple.com/ and scroll down to Apple Software. OS X "Tiger" is over there toward the right. $129.

However, once you do hack it (there should be lots of info available on how to do so via Google), I would pretty much expect it to run like crap. It's a hack. It's not going to find the hardware it expects. And really, the Mac is not made by either the hardware or the software. It's the whole package that creates the Mac experience.
 
Hmm...something is popping into my head...something about a pot and a kettle and the color black?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJ1AWw8ktLQ

The Mac has only iWork and MS Office trials. You're pretty much going to want one or the other in most cases, and they're giving you both so you can make an educated decision which.

Two morsels is an appetizer, not a seven-course meal, of trialware.

OBTW, I forgot to mention in my other post about trialware that the QuickBooks they include is called the "New User Edition" but it's fully-functional. I'm still using it 2.5 years later to do the books for the flying club. It's just the "not Pro" version (no payroll, doesn't do every possible report).
 
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Unix/Linux equals good. My best uptime currently:
[jesse@tcs-tech ~]$ uptime
16:19:57 up 218 days, 4 min, 1 user, load average: 0.16, 0.20, 0.18
[jesse@tcs-tech ~]$

I had one that was over a year but the damn UPS died recently. Doh.
 
Unix/Linux equals good. My best uptime currently:


I had one that was over a year but the damn UPS died recently. Doh.

My brother used to be an "Apple Campus Rep" and he had an iBook that he purposely never applied any updates to so that he could see how long it'd go. His uptime listed 700+ days when he had to give the machine back...
 
And that is GOOD. By using a combination of hardware and software, Apple can create a good all-around experience for the user, and avoid a ton of development headaches and incompatibility problems in the process. Honestly, I'm impressed that Microsoft has managed to make Windows run as well as they have, given the hodgepodge of hardware out there.

Also, I don't know how you can use this as an Apple/MS comparison - MS doesn't make their own hardware.

My point is simply that you guys always love to throw the monopolistic tactics of Microsoft out there and act like Apple only has the best of intentions. You guys will defend anything that Apple does no matter how similar it is to the tactics that you decry in other companies.

Apple is just as bad as Microsoft, just on a much smaller scale. The only REAL difference is that they have an army of zealots that will buy anything that they put on the market and defend anything they do as being in the best interest of the consumer.
 
My point is simply that you guys always love to throw the monopolistic tactics of Microsoft out there and act like Apple only has the best of intentions. You guys will defend anything that Apple does no matter how similar it is to the tactics that you decry in other companies.

Apple wants to make a buck. So does Microsoft. Apple does it by making good products (most of the time! :rolleyes:). Microsoft does it mostly by copying and/or killing competitors and lots of bad-faith deals. A few examples:

* Spyglass Mosaic (Licensed for percentage of revenues, announced next day they'd be giving it away as Microsoft Internet Explorer for free - No revenue, ha ha! :eek:)
* OS/2 ("Partnership" with IBM for a next-gen OS, and secretly developed Windows 3.0 at the same time, then went back on their word and developed MS Office for Windows instead of OS/2... IBM's still around 'cuz they're big, most of MS' competition isn't so lucky)
* CP/M (Licensed a knock-off, called it MS-DOS, and sold it so cheap that they killed CP/M)

Microsoft's MO is "embrace, extend, extinguish." First, they embrace a new standard (HTML, Java, etc.) developed by a competitor ("Hey, look! Isn't the web great? Here's "our" new product, Microsoft Internet Explorer.). Then, they extend it in ways that render the competition unusable (Microsoft FrontPage pages look like absolute crap in any browser... Except MSIE! And if you don't run MS FrontPage Extensions on an MS Internet Information Server platform running MS Windows, you can't do x, y, or z). Third, Extinguish. That's pretty self-explanatory. Obviously, it doesn't always work as in the example I provided. Sun did manage to successfully sue MS over their "MS Java" and if FireFox hadn't been around to lessen MS' stranglehold on the web browser market (and MS hadn't gotten complacent and not released a new version in several years), the Internet would almost require Windows.

Is Apple perfect? Hell no. But they're not MS, or Starbucks, or Wal-Mart either.
 
Apple wants to make a buck. So does Microsoft. Apple does it by making good products (most of the time! :rolleyes:). Microsoft does it mostly by copying and/or killing competitors and lots of bad-faith deals. A few examples:

* Spyglass Mosaic (Licensed for percentage of revenues, announced next day they'd be giving it away as Microsoft Internet Explorer for free - No revenue, ha ha! :eek:)
* OS/2 ("Partnership" with IBM for a next-gen OS, and secretly developed Windows 3.0 at the same time, then went back on their word and developed MS Office for Windows instead of OS/2... IBM's still around 'cuz they're big, most of MS' competition isn't so lucky)
* CP/M (Licensed a knock-off, called it MS-DOS, and sold it so cheap that they killed CP/M)

Microsoft's MO is "embrace, extend, extinguish." First, they embrace a new standard (HTML, Java, etc.) developed by a competitor ("Hey, look! Isn't the web great? Here's "our" new product, Microsoft Internet Explorer.). Then, they extend it in ways that render the competition unusable (Microsoft FrontPage pages look like absolute crap in any browser... Except MSIE! And if you don't run MS FrontPage Extensions on an MS Internet Information Server platform running MS Windows, you can't do x, y, or z). Third, Extinguish. That's pretty self-explanatory. Obviously, it doesn't always work as in the example I provided. Sun did manage to successfully sue MS over their "MS Java" and if FireFox hadn't been around to lessen MS' stranglehold on the web browser market (and MS hadn't gotten complacent and not released a new version in several years), the Internet would almost require Windows.

Is Apple perfect? Hell no. But they're not MS, or Starbucks, or Wal-Mart either.

I still have a huge problem with the Apple of old. The reason they came so close to extinction before was because of their monopolistic and overly tight control they kept on their products.

A bit of history (just in case people forgot). In the 80s, there were 3 big computers (4 if you count the Amiga, which was really a genre specific computer): The IBM Compatible PC, The Commodore 64, and the Apple.

The IBM Compatible PC was a clone of the IBM PC that was available at much lower costs than the Apple computer was. IBM originally resisted opening up their PC standard, but soon realized that they'd be better off going with it than fighting it, as "IBM Compatible" still meant they got the recognition and advertising every time the name was spoken.

Soon, you could buy peripherals and software that was written by companies other than IBM, Commodore and Apple, but those accessories were only available for IBM Compatible PCs. Apple sued and won many times for people creating clones of their keyboards and other peripherals and trying to sell that at much more reasonable prices than they sold the parts themselves.

Time went on, and the IBM Compatible PC became the king. I recall the figure being something like an 89% share for IBM Compatable, 8% Apple and the rest being Commodore and Amiga folks.

Apple still refused to change their business structure, and they were falling further and further down. They scored big with getting a contract with many schools where their computers would be the only ones available to students, but still couldn't drag themselves back up.

The spiral continued until the invention of the PowerMac, which was the first attempt by Apple to become more like the PC. You could finally start to open PC disks, you could do a lot more PC stuff with the Mac (ironicly enough, had IBM stuck to their guns like Apple had, this would have been illegal).

The Mac gained more ground when the Pentium processor came out with a flawed math processor, and the Apple fanaticism started to get insane. More and more people harped on the "Intel math bandwagon." But this was still a VERY small number of the total of computer customers.

The Mac started sliding back again in popularity when video games became more sophisticated and more available on PCs than on Macs. Things were looking really dim for the Apple company.

Then came the iPod. The phenomenon. The one tool that single handedly brought life back to Apple. Without the iPod, I firmly believe Apple would have gone out of business. It brought enough money for Apple to complete its transformation into the "Sub PC" by creating an OS based on Unix (FreeBSD I believe, but some here say Unix, and I'm not gonna argue that).

With the new OS, Apple could now start to run more applications that people wanted. Open source software projects, previously limited to Unix/Linux users were now available to the Macintosh. People were already running Windows emulation software on Linux/Unix, so this became available for the Mac.

Finally, the dream had come true: The Macintosh was capable of running software that people actually needed (PC software, that is).

We skip a few years of rampant fanboyism and come to the present day, where Apple took the final step towards the PC-ness it had strived for since the late 80s: The change to the Intel Chipset.



Now, what that story is all about is my distrust of a company that refuses to allow its users to clone their systems, thereby allowing people to improve on their quality. It also shows that by Apple's very actions of becoming more PC-ish, they recognized that the PC was superior.

Sure, one can say that PCs ripped off Mac looks and feel (Although, to me, Vista is more of a KDE ripoff than a Mac ripoff), but as far as actual behind the scenes working, the PC has remained essentially the same, while the Mac has slowly come towards the PC.

And that is why I distrust Apple.

edit: I forgot the "Pineapple" computer, the Korean Apple Ripoff, available only overseas. Was the only unchallenged clone of the Apple computer because they were not governed by the same laws as the United States was....throw that into history in the late 80s somewhere.
 
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Apple wants to make a buck. So does Microsoft. Apple does it by making good products (most of the time! :rolleyes:).

I hear ya, Kent, I hear ya...(hmm, where did those links come from?)

Microsoft does it mostly by copying and/or killing competitors and lots of bad-faith deals. A few examples:

* Spyglass Mosaic (Licensed for percentage of revenues, announced next day they'd be giving it away as Microsoft Internet Explorer for free - No revenue, ha ha! :eek:)
* OS/2 ("Partnership" with IBM for a next-gen OS, and secretly developed Windows 3.0 at the same time, then went back on their word and developed MS Office for Windows instead of OS/2... IBM's still around 'cuz they're big, most of MS' competition isn't so lucky)
* CP/M (Licensed a knock-off, called it MS-DOS, and sold it so cheap that they killed CP/M)

Microsoft's MO is "embrace, extend, extinguish." First, they embrace a new standard (HTML, Java, etc.) developed by a competitor ("Hey, look! Isn't the web great? Here's "our" new product, Microsoft Internet Explorer.). Then, they extend it in ways that render the competition unusable (Microsoft FrontPage pages look like absolute crap in any browser... Except MSIE! And if you don't run MS FrontPage Extensions on an MS Internet Information Server platform running MS Windows, you can't do x, y, or z). Third, Extinguish. That's pretty self-explanatory. Obviously, it doesn't always work as in the example I provided. Sun did manage to successfully sue MS over their "MS Java" and if FireFox hadn't been around to lessen MS' stranglehold on the web browser market (and MS hadn't gotten complacent and not released a new version in several years), the Internet would almost require Windows.

Is Apple perfect? Hell no. But they're not MS, or Starbucks, or Wal-Mart either.

Kent, if you're going to bring it...then please at least talk about stuff that happened in the last 20 years. All this time that you've spent hating Microsoft could have been spent taking off your rose colored glasses...

For God's sake...take them down off of their pedestal and let's have these discussions with some objectivity.
 
I hear ya, Kent, I hear ya...(hmm, where did those links come from?)



Kent, if you're going to bring it...then please at least talk about stuff that happened in the last 20 years. All this time that you've spent hating Microsoft could have been spent taking off your rose colored glasses...

For God's sake...take them down off of their pedestal and let's have these discussions with some objectivity.
- There was the OEM deal that said the makers have to pay Microsoft per PC shipped, whether it had Windows on it or not, so if the buyer wanted no OS or Linux or Unix they paid for Windows anyway.
- There's that every copy of Windows has an icon on the desktop, which it fires off the first time you run Internet Explorer, called "Connect to the Internet" that asks you for a credit card to sign you up for MSN.
- There's that every OEM must install Microsoft Windows Messenger, and Microsoft Windows Media Player, and Microsoft Internet Explorer and no other competing program.
- There's that no OEM can disclose what other odious terms are in the OEM contract.
- There's that every new PC user is greeted by the Windows EULA that says the user can reject the terms and get a refund for Windows, but nobody knows how you go about getting the refund.
- There's that the EULA for Frontpage says you cannot use Frontpage to create a web site that criticizes Microsoft.
- There's the Windows Server EULA that says you cannot publish any kind of performance benchmark of the OS.
- There's the EULA for Media Player that says Microsoft reserves the right to delete media files.
- There's the Vista EULA and licensing scheme that says that Microsoft can disable or degrade any and all functionality of the OS at any time.
- There's Microsoft lobbying every state in the U.S. to make MS Office the document standard rather than an open format, and when the CIO of Massachusetts defied them they lobbied to force him out:
http://www.marketwatch.com/news/sto...3C4-4ADC-471C-8F87-9181A4EC3E7B}&siteid=yhoof

and that's just from the top of my head. I could look up the ones I forgot.
 
- There was the OEM deal that said the makers have to pay Microsoft per PC shipped, whether it had Windows on it or not, so if the buyer wanted no OS or Linux or Unix they paid for Windows anyway.
- There's that every copy of Windows has an icon on the desktop, which it fires off the first time you run Internet Explorer, called "Connect to the Internet" that asks you for a credit card to sign you up for MSN.
What's the default browser in OS X?
- There's that every OEM must install Microsoft Windows Messenger, and Microsoft Windows Media Player, and Microsoft Internet Explorer and no other competing program.
Lock in? Scroll up...are you seriously trying to say that Apple doesn't play the lock in game?
- There's that no OEM can disclose what other odious terms are in the OEM contract.
Lack of disclosure? Scroll up...
- There's that every new PC user is greeted by the Windows EULA that says the user can reject the terms and get a refund for Windows, but nobody knows how you go about getting the refund.
- There's that the EULA for Frontpage says you cannot use Frontpage to create a web site that criticizes Microsoft.
- There's the Windows Server EULA that says you cannot publish any kind of performance benchmark of the OS.
EULA's? Scroll up and read about the EULA from your beloved. How can you not admit this point?
- There's the EULA for Media Player that says Microsoft reserves the right to delete media files.
- There's the Vista EULA and licensing scheme that says that Microsoft can disable or degrade any and all functionality of the OS at any time.
- There's Microsoft lobbying every state in the U.S. to make MS Office the document standard rather than an open format, and when the CIO of Massachusetts defied them they lobbied to force him out:
http://www.marketwatch.com/news/sto...3C4-4ADC-471C-8F87-9181A4EC3E7B}&siteid=yhoof

and that's just from the top of my head. I could look up the ones I forgot.

If you're going to hate on principal, you have to be fair. That's all I'm trying to say.

I can keep this up for days, guys. All you're doing is talking in circles. Every time you bash on another company I'll keep calling a spade a spade.
 
A few corrections to note...

IBM originally resisted opening up their PC standard, but soon realized that they'd be better off going with it than fighting it, as "IBM Compatible" still meant they got the recognition and advertising every time the name was spoken.

IBM did *not* "open up their PC standard." It was reverse engineered by everyone and their brother. Not too tough back in those days.

Soon, you could buy peripherals and software that was written by companies other than IBM, Commodore and Apple, but those accessories were only available for IBM Compatible PCs.

There has always been software and accessories from third parties for every computing platform. The Mac, being 3 years behind the IBM PC in its release, had to play catch-up. They did a LOT of advocacy work with developers prior to release (that was Guy Kawasaki's job) and afterwards as well.

In fact, at Apple's launch, some of the earliest third-party software was available from none other than Microsoft, which released Microsoft Basic (interpreter) and Microsoft MultiPlan (an early Excel predecessor).

In 1986, Apple decided to stimulate third-party development even further through a program called Project Rota (no idea where the name came from) where Mac hardware was seeded to potential developers and academic institutions for the purpose of further software development on the Mac.

I know this because "my" (father's, actually) first Mac came from Project Rota. Mac Plus, with a then-industry-leading 1MB of RAM standard, a monster of a 20MB external hard drive, and a pair of printers (ImageWriter II 4-color dot matrix and LaserWriter Plus 300 dpi laser printer, both of them absolute tanks).

Apple sued and won many times for people creating clones of their keyboards and other peripherals and trying to sell that at much more reasonable prices than they sold the parts themselves.

Apple has had a lot of lawsuits, but I don't ever recall any over software and accessories. I worked at a Mac accessory store back then and we sold third-party keyboards and mice. Kensington was very popular.

The spiral continued until the invention of the PowerMac, which was the first attempt by Apple to become more like the PC. You could finally start to open PC disks, you could do a lot more PC stuff with the Mac

Nope... OrangeMicro released a "DOS Card" in the early Mac II days (circa 1987) which had an Intel processor, actually an entire Intel machine basically, on it. Apple did the same thing later with the "Centris 610 - DOS Compatible" model, around 1991 or 1992.

As far as reading and writing PC disks, that happened with the move to the "new" 1.4MB 3.5" floppies, which Apple called "SuperDisks." SuperDisk drives would read PC disks and were introduced on the Mac IIx in 1988, a full 6 years prior to the Power Mac. This really didn't make the Mac more *like* the PC, it just allowed people with Macs to interact better with PC's, already a necessary evil at that point.

The Mac gained more ground when the Pentium processor came out with a flawed math processor, and the Apple fanaticism started to get insane.

The Mac fanaticism was around loooooooong before the Intel math problems. Trust me, I was one then too. :D In fact, I regard the Intel math bug as largely insignificant in the grand scheme of the never ending debate.

Then came the iPod. The phenomenon. The one tool that single handedly brought life back to Apple. Without the iPod, I firmly believe Apple would have gone out of business.

Nuh-uh. Apple has been on a huge and accelerating upswing ever since Jobs' return in 1997 and more specifically the release of the iMac in 1998. The guy's nuts, but he knows how to put together an elegant computer. FWIW, I thought the iMac was the beginning of the end for Apple myself... I mean, who'd buy a Mac with no floppy drive and no built-in SCSI port? :rolleyes: :redface:

It brought enough money for Apple to complete its transformation into the "Sub PC" by creating an OS based on Unix (FreeBSD I believe, but some here say Unix, and I'm not gonna argue that).

No, it really didn't. OS X came about in kind of a funny roundabout way. Apple had wanted to do a next-gen OS for a long time, and had things code-named "Rhapsody" and such. Unfortunately, the home-spun thing just wasn't working out. Meanwhile, Jobs, who was fired from Apple in 1985, had gone off and started another computer company, NeXT. The NextStep OS was revolutionary in its ease of development, but like Mac OS on the Mac, NextStep ran only on NeXT hardware until the later release of OpenStep (which, ironically, ran on PC hardware but not Mac hardware - Jobs and his grudges...) Anyway, Apple had basically trashed Rhapsody and ended up purchasing NeXT and bringing Steve Jobs back into the fold with it for $400 million in 1997. The GUI was redesigned to make more sense than either Mac OS or NextStep had been - Basically a ground-up re-evaluation of why certain elements should be placed in certain spots and such. The end result was Mac OS X, which came out before the iPod was announced and certainly LONG before the iPod was so popular. OBTW, to this day, the Mac OS X API calls all start with "NS" (for NextStep).

It also shows that by Apple's very actions of becoming more PC-ish, they recognized that the PC was superior.

I still don't see how Macs are becoming "more PC-ish." Sure, we're on Intel now... Whoopty do. A chip is a chip is a chip, a means to an end if you will. The OS is what's important. Mac OS has always been a GUI, where Windows evolved from an add-on to the command-line MS-DOS into... wait for it... a GUI!!! A few other things I can think of right offhand... Macs got multiple-monitor capability in 1987. Windows machines got it in 1998. OK, I'm done thinking. You're the only person I've ever heard this "Macs copy PC's" assertion from, so I won't waste any more time with it.

edit: I forgot the "Pineapple" computer, the Korean Apple Ripoff, available only overseas. Was the only unchallenged clone of the Apple computer because they were not governed by the same laws as the United States was....throw that into history in the late 80s somewhere.

Completely, utterly wrong.

The first "clone" was an early laptop with an amber gas-plasma display... The name "Kangaroo" seems to be hopping out of the depths of my brain, but chances are it's wrong. They got away with it because it did not have the essential Mac ROM's, so you had to buy a Mac, remove the ROM chips, and install them in the laptop. Apple didn't care because you still had to buy a Mac.

Then, after hearing for ages and ages how clones were the way for Apple to save the Mac, they began licensing clone makers. The largest was Power Computing, which was quite successful for a year or two. Then, Apple realized that Power Computing was simply stealing existing Mac customers and not doing a damn thing for the overall Mac OS market share, and revoked all clone licenses. (I believe Power Computing still makes PC's, though I'm not sure.) So, the cloning thing WAS tried in the 90's, and it failed miserably.

Man, I love computer history. This has been fun. :) I still have my April 1987 Macworld magazine trumpeting the introduction of the Mac II with a picture on the cover and a single word: "Color!" :rofl: Also, the ads for the old Jasmine hard drives, the cheapest of the day. $649 for 20MB, $999 for 40MB. :hairraise:
 
For the record, the point which keeps being rubbed off is that:

I still can't run Mac programs on a PC.

I've never missed that capability....

PC programs now can run on a Mac.

Who's becoming more like whom?
 
Here's my input: Generally speaking, if you by a Mac or a name-brand PC, you're getting ripped off, paying way too much for way too little. Period. I know it's not an option for everybody, but build it yourself and you get a lot more for your money... Maybe find a local vendor to do it. In any case, whether it's an Apple or a Dell, you're just paying a lot of extra money for no reason other than to make Mr. Jobs or Mr. Dell richer.

And my wariness about the prospect of purchasing a Mac? If history is any indicator, Apple's about to flush itself down the toilet. Again.
 
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