Sell me a Mac!

[Bill]

OK, my wife and I want a new laptop, mainly for home use, not business. Main reason is cheesy, we want to be able to wireless surf the net from anywhere in the house. Secondary mission is to begin producing digital movies like the ones Diana and Chip regularly do.

I've also somewhat been interested in trying a Mac at some point, and maybe that time is now. Looking at the web site, I was thinking of the middle Macbook model, with 1G ram and 80G hard drive.

I have another windows based deskside that has three 80G drives in it now, and would like to use it as the main storage device.

So, two questions:

1. Is 1G sufficient for movie making, or should one go for 2G?
2. I can get a similar windows laptop for roughly 60% of the cost of the Mac, what is that extra cash buying? In other words, why is a Mac worth the premium price?
3. Is learning to use a Mac like learning a new language, or will a windwos person adapt quickly?

 

[CJones]

Oh boy... I have a feeling this might end up in Spin Zone.

 

[Bill]

Oh boy... I have a feeling this might end up in Spin Zone.

Maybe, but I'm being honest here, we want the laptop, and I want to know how a Mac may be better.

 

[CJones]

Maybe, but I'm being honest here, we want the laptop, and I want to know how a Mac may be better.

Oh yeah.. I'm sure you're serious.. I'm actually curious to hear some 'educated' reasoning on the price differential. But knowing a few of the parties involved here, it could get interesting. ha

 

[Bill]

I'm actually curious to hear some 'educated' reasoning on the price differential. But knowing a few of the parties involved here, it could get interesting. ha

There are some very good computer people here, but I'm more the user type. I want to plug it in , turn it on, and have it do what I want with as minimal fuss as possible.

As long as it doesn't degenerate into a flame war.

 

[ScottM]

There are some very good computer people here, but I'm more the user type. I want to plug it in , turn it on, and have it do what I want with as minimal fuss as possible.

well you answered your own question. Apple.

The Apple iLife and iMovie apps will do a lot of stuff for you and are easy to use. If you need more features then final cut is the way to go and the stuff you learned from iMovie will still work on the new app.

 

[Skip Miller]

I have no experience with Macs, but I do know that you can never have too much RAM. Go for the 2G. Beware of the price, though. I have had great succe$$ in the PC world by buying minimal RAM and immediately installing aftermarket chips to raise the RAM to the max.

-Skip

 

[jason]

For the mission you described, the mac would be a good fit. The price differential pays for two things.

1) macs come with a good base set of software. You can do the things that you're talking about with iLife, without buying a bunch of add-on software.

2) the name. There's no getting around this, you're paying extra for the privilege of buying a mac. Some will say that the build quality is superior. I say that it is slightly above average, at best. There are innovative things (such as the power cord held on with a magnet and the built in webcam), but nothing earth shattering.They do well once they get to the second or third generation on any one device. I would never buy a first generation anything from Apple.

I do not think that Apple is the answer to every question, but for the mission you described I think it would work well.

The switch should be pretty easy for anybody that would rate themselves above a 5 out of 10 on the "how technical are you?" scale.

 

[EdFred]

Ask this guy.

 

[jesse]

Jason said it best. The mac will work well for your mission.

 

[Ken Ibold]

My kids use both iMovies on an iBook and Movie Makers on a Dell PC to make movies. They switch back and forth effortlessly.

I haven't used Macs a lot in about 3 years, but for years I would use a Mac at work and a PC at home. For all practical purposes they're the same. It's the difference between electric flaps and manual flaps, an automatic transmission and a stick, gas grill and charcoal. They do things a little differently, but they both have their good points and bad points.

For my money, buy the biggest, baddest processor you can afford and the biggest pile of RAM that will fit. For making movies, THAT is more important than the operating system.

 

[mikea]

OK, my wife and I want a new laptop, mainly for home use, not business. Main reason is cheesy, we want to be able to wireless surf the net from anywhere in the house. Secondary mission is to begin producing digital movies like the ones Diana and Chip regularly do.

I've also somewhat been interested in trying a Mac at some point, and maybe that time is now. Looking at the web site, I was thinking of the middle Macbook model, with 1G ram and 80G hard drive.

I have another windows based deskside that has three 80G drives in it now, and would like to use it as the main storage device.

So, two questions:

1. Is 1G sufficient for movie making, or should one go for 2G?
2. I can get a similar windows laptop for roughly 60% of the cost of the Mac, what is that extra cash buying? In other words, why is a Mac worth the premium price?
3. Is learning to use a Mac like learning a new language, or will a windwos person adapt quickly?

- You'll want to run with 2GB at minimum, now it's better to get 4GB. That will will be 2 1GB or 2GB DIMMs. Apple charges ridiculous prices for optional memory. The trick is to get a configuration from Apple with one DIMM (if you can, some require balanced DIMMs) and buy the second from a top rate third party like http://macsales.com. If you can't buy a single DIMM config, buy the minimal one and get 2 new DIMMs to replace them. You can eBay the old DIMMs.
- The Mac comes with FULLY FEATURED (not "Special Edition") iLife applications - Mail, iTunes, iPhoto, iMovie, iWeb, Garage Band for music composing, that are easily worth $600 or more.
- You'll be up to speed on using it in an evening or a weekend. Stop by an Apple store and drive one for a while if you can. Ask one of the black shirts to show you the basics. The major differences are where the menus are and using the Apple button instead of the Windows button, and how you use Control to right click for the two seconds until you use your old mouse or learn the two finger on the scroll bar thing.

Buy Applecare for a laptop. You don't have to get it upfront, or even from Apple. Just buy it during your one year warranty period. http://smalldog.com sometimes has Applecare discounted.

Check out smalldog or the Apple refurbs deals (click on the red tag at http://store.apple.com) The availibilyt changes but you can usually save 15% or more. Apple refurbs are good because those are burned in more than the "new" ones.

Pick up the Missing Manual for OS X Tiger book if you want to know how to tweak things right away. Jim Heid's iLife '05 book and DVD is outstanding. http://www.amazon.com/Macintosh-iLi...4011140?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1177614831&sr=1-5 He came out with an updated book but had health issues and hasn't made a new DVD. The '05 one will work fine for you.

 

[gkainz]

forwarded to my two mac-geek kids

 

[mikea]

I almost forgot,

Get tons of great advice for $5.
http://www.takecontrolbooks.com/switching.html
http://www.takecontrolbooks.com/buying-mac.html

 

[SkyHog]

You can get Apple performance and Apple specs for much less than Apple price.

Show me any Mac that costs less than a comparably equipped PC, and I'll eat my words. Including heavily priced Adobe software compared to free Apple software doesn't count.

 

[mikea]

You can get Apple performance and Apple specs for much less than Apple price.

Show me any Mac that costs less than a comparably equipped PC, and I'll eat my words. Including heavily priced Adobe software compared to free Apple software doesn't count.

I can get a new Hyundai Sante Fe for less than a new Cadillac Escalade.

Prove me wrong and I'll eat my words.

 

[jesse]

Including heavily priced Adobe software compared to free Apple software doesn't count.

Why not--It's what you need to use it? Apple really isn't even all that expensive anymore. $500 gets you into the Mac world on a pretty capable system.

 

[SkyHog]

Why not--It's what you need to use it? Apple really isn't even all that expensive anymore. $500 gets you into the Mac world on a pretty capable system.

But you forgot the joys of open source software....Let's do a price comparison (midline laptops):

Macintosh 15 Inch Macbook Pro:
2.33 GHz Core 2 Duo
2GB DDR2 SDRAM
120GB Serial ATA Drive @ 5400 RPM (Yes, 5400 was the fastest option from the site)
No additional software solutions
$2499

Dell 15.4 Inch Precision Notebook
2.33GHz Core 2 Duo
2GB DDR2 SDRAM
120GB Hard Drive @ 5400 RPM (for not much more, 7200RPM is an option)
No additional software packages
$2226

Ok - the difference in price is only a few hundred dollars. But here's the kicker:

Macintosh: Most software requires either emulation or installation of Windows (which is touted as the reason most people choose Macs, to avoid Windows)
PC: Hard to find software that DOES require emulation. Can't install Mac OS (don't need to)

Macintosh: Constantly trying to become more "PC-ish"
PC: Been "PC-ish" for over 20 years now, not trying to be more "Mac-ish"

Macintosh: No decent compiled programming languages available to the public
PC: NUMEROUS compiled programming languages available to the public for free and at a cost.


Ahh, but this is starting to be one sided. What does the Macintosh offer for free that PC users will miss out on without paying for?

[crickets]

See - iTunes (overrated, btw, there are other, non-Apple products that do the same thing, better) is available for free on PCs too. Movies? Oh yeah, Microsoft has Windows Movie Maker, included with all versions of windows.

Imaging? Windows comes with Microsoft Paint, which admittedly, sucks, but there is freeware out there that trumps both iDrawWithYourMouse (or whatever iName it hase) and even Photoshop, IMHO. Its called The GIMP (available on Macs or PCs running Windows or Linux).

All of the free stuff that makes Macs better? Its free to Windows users too.

More downsides to macs:
Standard option includes one mouse button (gotta hold a key for the second mouse, or buy a 2 button universal mouse which would be the same thing as a PC gets standard).

Want to do web development for the beginner, with no web experience? Hey, neat, iWeb makes unbelievably bloated webpages, just like Frontpage (a pay product). But what's that? There are free wysiwyg editors available for the PC too?

About the only thing the Mac does better than the PC is that it comes preshipped with software without the need to download the free stuff (although, the freestuff you download for either computer is better than the crap that ships with either).

Now, what about those in the market for a truly cheap computer? What? There's no 3rd party manufacturer of Macintosh computers?? I guess those with a price budget are stuck with PCs there.

Add to this the unbelievable amount of time spend just searching for the freaking power button (hint, you can't poweron a mac without having a keyboard plugged in), and the fact that most people who have had a MacBook in the last 2 years have had stupid problems like keys falling off the keyboard or Kernel Panics when there used to be none (ask Kent, he's been there as well), and you're suddenly not paying more for a better built computer, you're still getting crappy Chinese imports.

Research a bit, and you'll find that PCs and Macs are similar in many ways, but in the differences, PCs shine above the rest. Hands down.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

There are some very good computer people here, but I'm more the user type. I want to plug it in , turn it on, and have it do what I want with as minimal fuss as possible.

Bill,

You've just described the reason I use a Mac, and really the reason most people use Macs. "Plug and play" is something that Mac users have had basically forever, and on Windows it's still a cruel joke.

Most of what Mike said is right on, except 2GB is the maximum capacity on the MacBook.

As far as price, I get crap every time I buy a Mac from the PC users of the world, so every time I buy a Mac, I go to Dell or some other PC maker and try to configure a machine as close to what I'm buying as possible. The latest one, I spent $2500 for the Mac and $3200 and change for the PC. The big difference is that things that are included on Macs are optional extra$ on PC's. So, rest assured that you DO in fact get what you pay for. Oh, and you get tech support people who are in the US instead of "New Delli". That's priceless.

we want to be able to wireless surf the net from anywhere in the house.

That'll be easy. It's kinda funny, when my parents got DSL installed, I hovered to make sure they didn't **** things up. The dude took nearly an hour to get my mom's Windows laptop to work on it. Then he went to do my dad's Mac laptop and said "Uh, I'm not real good with those Macs, why don't you do it?" I had it set up and the first page loaded in THREE SECONDS. *That* is how it should be!

When I used to be a computer consultant, I trained a lot of switchers. The most common question was "That's all you have to do?" The little details are what make the Mac the Mac. I'm sure you'll appreciate the MagSafe power adapter connection and all those "little" things.

Secondary mission is to begin producing digital movies like the ones Diana and Chip regularly do.

And that, you can do easily with the included iMovie program. That's what I've used for the videos I've done which you may have seen.

Skiplane video
Glider video

Note that the above videos are in the "video iPod" m4v format, so you may need to download the latest version of QuickTime to play them on Windoze. EdFred says they also play in the Zune program though. I should probably go and export them into WMV format as well, which iMovie can do with the addition of Flip4Mac.

iMovie will also work with GarageBand to let you make really cool soundtracks. Heck, GarageBand is fun on its own, it's like having your own music studio.

Apple's "iApps" are included. iMovie for editing your movies, iDVD for putting them on DVD's (multiple movies per DVD and such if you so choose), iPhoto for importing/sorting/editing/viewing your digital pictures, iChat (AIM client), iCal calendar, iTunes for music/movies/TV shows/podcasts, iWeb for creating web pages.

There are also a few Apple apps without i's. GarageBand is a multi-track sound editor/synthesizer/movie soundtrack/whatever program. Address Book, which integrates into the entire system. Automator, for, um, well, automating any repetitive tasks you do! (No programming required!) Dictionary (duh). Mail for e-mail, including a very easy to use spam filter (just click on "Junk" and it goes away, and filters like messages automatically in the future). Safari for web browsing, which has tabbed browsing and many other features that you'll now find on FireFox, if you use that. Photo Booth lets you use the built-in camera to do all kinds of crazy, fun trick photos. Stickies, which lets you create electronic post-it notes on your screen.

There's a boatload of non-apple software included too. GraphicConverter (a formerly-shareware graphics-editing package that reads and writes every format known to man, I think!) QuickBooks accounting software. OmniGraffle (basically equivalent to Visio) and OmniOutliner. (Omni makes quite a few other excellent, Mac-only software packages as well.)

I've also somewhat been interested in trying a Mac at some point, and maybe that time is now. Looking at the web site, I was thinking of the middle Macbook model, with 1G ram and 80G hard drive.

That's a good place to start. However, you'll probably want to add more RAM and more storage. You'll pay a premium for Apple to install those, so if you're a tinkerer and don't mind doing it yourself, there are better deals to be had on RAM. That extra gig will cost you $175 straight from Apple. My favorite RAM supplier lists it as $148, so actually not that big of a deal, probably because it has to be done in pairs so you'd be tossing the Apple RAM if you did it yourself.

As far as more storage...

I have another windows based deskside that has three 80G drives in it now, and would like to use it as the main storage device.

Should be a piece of cake, Macs will talk to the Windows networking pretty easily.

So, two questions:

Uhhh, you didn't start the questions yet?

1. Is 1G sufficient for movie making, or should one go for 2G?
2. I can get a similar windows laptop for roughly 60% of the cost of the Mac, what is that extra cash buying? In other words, why is a Mac worth the premium price?
3. Is learning to use a Mac like learning a new language, or will a windwos person adapt quickly?

1) Go for 2G. It'll be well worth it in the long run, movie making or not. 1G is "sufficient" but 2G is better.

2) see above... And more on that in a minute, too. You do get what you pay for.

3) Most Windows users adapt pretty well, though it is certainly different. I don't think any reasonably smart person should have any problem using a Mac. Macs are designed to really not need much in the way of administration, so you should be just fine. (No more McAfee, no more Spybot, no more AdAware... What will you do with all the free time? )

 

[flyingcheesehead]

As far as price, I get crap every time I buy a Mac from the PC users of the world, so every time I buy a Mac, I go to Dell or some other PC maker and try to configure a machine as close to what I'm buying as possible. The latest one, I spent $2500 for the Mac and $3200 and change for the PC. The big difference is that things that are included on Macs are optional extra$ on PC's. So, rest assured that you DO in fact get what you pay for.

OK, I couldn't resist. I had to do the Apple/Dell price comparison. I compared the MacBook you spoke of (the "middle" model, base price $1299) with the most similar Dell I could find, the XPS M1210 (Base price $1199).

Specs shared by both:
* 2.0 GHz Intel Core 2 Duo processor. Dell: $75. (Stock Dell is 1.83GHz)
* 1 GB RAM (2x512)
* 80 GB hard drive (5400 RPM SATA)
* DVD burner so you can share those movies! (Dell: $40 upgrade)
* 802.11n High-speed WiFi. Apple: $1.99 (thank Sarbanes-Oxley for it not being free.) Dell: $49.
* Integrated camera. Dell: $79.
* Bluetooth 2.0+EDR. Dell: $20.
* Media center remote. Dell: $29.
* Modem. Apple: $49.

Things that were different:
* Operating system (duh): Windows Vista Home Premium (default) vs. Mac OS X 10.4 "Tiger"
* MacBook has 13.3" screen, Dell has 12.1".
* MacBook has 55WHr battery, Dell has 53WHr.
* MacBook has built-in 10/100/1000 Gigabit ethernet, Dell only 10/100.

This is about as close as you're gonna get specs-wise. Note that I purposely made sure that where there were differences, Apple was better than Dell, rather than jacking up the price of the Dell even more to match ALL the specs.

Final score: Apple $1348, Dell $1491, 10.6% more than Apple.

Now, I know what the naysayers will say: "But I don't want a media remote! I'm never gonna use the camera! What's bluetooth?" But, let's start over. The base price difference is $100, and if you put in the same processor and add the DVD burner, that costs $115 from Dell. I'll ignore the last $15 and call it even. For the SAME price, you get a lot more capability. There's quite a few things that I've done on Macs over the years that I never would have paid extra for the option, but just because the capability was there, I tried it out, and my Macs have been that much more useful to me because of it.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Macintosh: Most software requires either emulation or installation of Windows

Not most software that people use... Yes, it's true that there is a higher number of programs available for windows. But I only use one word processor, one web browser, one mail client... And the ones I use are either included for free (Safari and Mail, for instance) or are the same ones you use (Microsoft Word).

Macintosh: Constantly trying to become more "PC-ish"
PC: Been "PC-ish" for over 20 years now, not trying to be more "Mac-ish"

Are you kidding? How on earth is the Mac trying to become more PC-ish??? 20 years ago (1987), Windows was at version 1.0 or 2.0 and was such a bag that most people were still using DOS. Macs had a nice graphical user interface. Now, you tell me - Which one has been copying the other?

Macintosh: No decent compiled programming languages available to the public
PC: NUMEROUS compiled programming languages available to the public for free and at a cost.

So, you must be forgetting that the Mac is based on Unix, and there are MANY free developer tools from both Apple and third parties for whatever language you choose. In fact, just for the heck of it, I checked and the good ol' gcc C/C++ compiler I know and love from my CS days is preinstalled. Apple's unmatched XCode developer tools are included for free with every Mac (install DVD in the box).

Ahh, but this is starting to be one sided. What does the Macintosh offer for free that PC users will miss out on without paying for?

All kinds of stuff, I don't even know where to start but to point you to my posts in this thread.

Movies? Oh yeah, Microsoft has Windows Movie Maker, included with all versions of windows.

I'm sure Jesse will have some choice things to say about that particular product, he's always bitching about it. LOL

BTW, I didn't quote your comments about iTunes or imaging, because there's really no difference between Macs and PC's there. iTunes is on both, GIMP, Photoshop, etc.

All of the free stuff that makes Macs better? Its free to Windows users too.

Not quite.

Standard option includes one mouse button (gotta hold a key for the second mouse, or buy a 2 button universal mouse which would be the same thing as a PC gets standard).

There's a reason for that - You can do anything on a Mac with only one button. Thus, it's less confusing to a beginning user. "Right-click" functionality can be had on any Mac by holding the control key and clicking, and on the Mac laptops you can get the right-click by (I don't do this, so I forget the exact technique) holding one or two fingers on the trackpad and clicking the button. The Mac also does scroll-wheel on the trackpad by using two fingers instead of one, and control-scroll will zoom in and out. Very cool.

Want to do web development for the beginner, with no web experience? Hey, neat, iWeb makes unbelievably bloated webpages, just like Frontpage (a pay product).

So, people on either platform can make bloated web pages, but the Macs can do it for free with preinstalled software. What was your point again? I thought you were arguing against the Mac?

Now, what about those in the market for a truly cheap computer? What? There's no 3rd party manufacturer of Macintosh computers?? I guess those with a price budget are stuck with PCs there.

If you can't afford a $599 Mac Mini, there are plenty of options in the used market.

and the fact that most people who have had a MacBook in the last 2 years have had stupid problems like keys falling off the keyboard or Kernel Panics when there used to be none (ask Kent, he's been there as well),

Haha... You searched my posts. Actually, the keyboard was replaced long ago, and Apple's crash detector will send a dump to Apple if you so choose. Shortly after I resumed clicking "Yes" to that, Apple released a firmware update and I haven't had a single kernel panic since.

and you're suddenly not paying more for a better built computer, you're still getting crappy Chinese imports.

Yeah, but at least we have American tech support.

 

[mikea]

But you forgot the joys of open source software...

Yeah, cause real hard to find open source software for a system that runs on Unix, where open source software began.

mike-macbookpro:~ mike$ uname -a
Darwin mike-macbookpro 8.9.1 Darwin Kernel Version 8.9.1: Thu Feb 22 20:55:00 PST 2007; root:xnu-792.18.15~1/RELEASE_I386 i386 i386
mike-macbookpro:~ mike$ perl -v

This is perl, v5.8.6 built for darwin-thread-multi-2level
(with 3 registered patches, see perl -V for more detail)

mike-macbookpro:~ mike$ awk
Usage: awk [-f programfile | 'program'] [-Ffieldsep] [-v var=value] [files]

mike-macbookpro:~ mike$ ls /usr/bin
a2p                             nano
aclocal                         native2ascii
aclocal-1.6                     nbdst
addftinfo                       nc
afmtodit                        neqn
alias                           net
appleping                       net-snmp-config
appletviewer                    newaliases
apply                           nfsstat
apropos                         nice
apt                             nicl
arch                            nidump
at                              nifind
at_cho_prn                      nigrep
atlookup                        niload
atprint                         nireport
atq                             niutil
atrm                            nl
atstatus                        nmblookup
automake                        nohup
automake-1.6                    nroff
automator                       nslookup
auval                           nsupdate
awk                             ntlm_auth
b2m                             ntp-wait
banner                          ntpq
basename                        ocs
bashbug                         ocvs
batch                           ocvs-diff-branch
bbdiff                          ocvs-make-branch
bbedit                          ocvs-merge-branch
bc                              ocvs-revert
bg                              ocvs-view-diffs
biff                            od
bspatch                         open
bspatch_apple                   open-x11
bunzip2                         openssl
bzcat                           openssl_fips_fingerprint
bzcmp                           orbd
bzdiff                          osacompile
bzegrep                         osalang
bzfgrep                         osascript
bzgrep                          over
bzip2                           pack200
bzip2recover                    pagesize
bzless                          passwd
bzmore                          paste
c++filt                         patch
c2ph                            pathchk
c_rehash                        pbcopy
cal                             pbpaste
calendar                        pcsctest
cancel                          pcsctool
cap_mkdb                        pdbedit
captoinfo                       pear
cd                              perl
certtool                        perl5.8.6
checkgid                        perlbug
checknr                         perlcc
chflags                         perldoc
chfn                            perlivp
chgrp                           pfbtops
chpass                          php
chsh                            php-config
cksum                           phpize
clear                           pic
cmp                             pic2graph
col                             pico
colcrt                          piconv
colldef                         pl
colrm                           pl2pm
column                          plutil
comm                            pmset
command                         pod2html
compile_et                      pod2latex
compress                        pod2man
cpan                            pod2text
cpio                            pod2usage
crc32                           podchecker
crlrefresh                      podselect
crontab                         policytool
cscope                          post-grohtml
csplit                          pr
cups-calibrate                  pre-grohtml
cups-config                     printenv
cupstestppd                     printf
curl                            procmail
curl-config                     profiles
cut                             prove
cvs-diff-branch                 psed
cvs-make-branch                 pstopdf
cvs-merge-branch                pstruct
cvs-revert                      ptar
cvs-view-diffs                  pwpolicy
dbmmanage                       pydoc
dc                              python
defaults                        python2.3
diff                            pythonw
diff3                           pythonw2.3
diffpp                          quota
diffstat                        rcs-checkin
dig                             rdoc
dirname                         read
dirt                            readlink
disable                         refer
ditto                           renice
dns-sd                          reset
dprofpp                         rev
drutil                          ri
dscl                            rlogin
dsimport                        rmic
dsperfmonitor                   rmid
du                              rmiregistry
eaytest                         rpcclient
ebrowse                         rs
efax                            rsh
efix                            rsync
egrep                           ruby
emacs                           ruptime
emacs-i386                      rview
emacs-ppc                       rvim
emacs-undumped                  rwho
emacsclient                     s2p
enable                          sample
enc2xs                          sar
encode_keychange                say
enscript                        sc_usage
env                             scp
eqn                             screen
eqn2graph                       script
erb                             sdiff
escputil                        security
etags                           sed
ex                              serialver
expand                          servertool
expect                          setregion
extcheck                        sftp
false                           shar
fax                             shlock
fc                              showmount
fetchmail                       sips
fetchmailconf                   sliceprint
fg                              slogin
fgrep                           smbcacls
file                            smbclient
find                            smbcontrol
find2perl                       smbcquotas
findsmb                         smbget
finger                          smbpasswd
fixproc                         smbspool
fmt                             smbstatus
fold                            smbtar
formail                         smbtree
from                            smbutil
fs_usage                        snmpbulkget
ftp                             snmpbulkwalk
funzip                          snmpcheck
gencat                          snmpconf
genstrings                      snmpdelta
getconf                         snmpdf
getopt                          snmpget
getopts                         snmpgetnext
gnuattach                       snmpinform
gnuclient                       snmpnetstat
gnudoit                         snmpset
gnuserv                         snmpstatus
gnutar                          snmptable
grap2graph                      snmptest
grep                            snmptranslate
grep-changelog                  snmptrap
grn                             snmpusm
grodvi                          snmpvacm
groff                           snmpwalk
groffer                         soelim
grog                            sort
grolbp                          splain
grolj4                          split
grops                           sqlite3
grotty                          srm
groups                          ssh
gunzip                          ssh-add
gzcat                           ssh-agent
gzexe                           ssh-keygen
gzip                            ssh-keyscan
h2ph                            stat
h2xs                            states
hash                            strings
hdid                            su
hdiutil                         sudo
head                            sum
hexdump                         sw_vers
host                            syslog
hostinfo                        tab2space
hpftodit                        tabs
hsdbd                           tack
htdigest                        tail
htpasswd                        talk
iconv                           tar
id                              tbl
idlj                            tclsh
indxbib                         tclsh8.4
info                            tcopy
infocmp                         tdbbackup
infokey                         tdbdump
infotocap                       tdbtool
install                         tee
install-info                    telnet
instmodsh                       testparm
iodbc-config                    testprns
iodbctest                       testrb
iodbctestw                      texi2dvi
ipcrm                           texi2html
ipcs                            texindex
ipf-mod.pl                      textutil
irb                             tfmtodit
isc-config.sh                   tftp
jar                             tic
jarsigner                       tidy
java                            tiff2icns
java-rmi.cgi                    tiffutil
javac                           time
javadoc                         tkmib
javah                           tnameserv
javap                           toe
javaws                          top
jconsole                        tops
jdb                             touch
jinfo                           tput
jmap                            tr
jobs                            traptoemail
join                            troff
jot                             true
jps                             tset
jsadebugd                       tsort
jstack                          tty
jstat                           type
jstatd                          ul
kdestroy                        ulimit
kdump                           umask
keytool                         unalias
killall                         uname
kinit                           uncompress
klist                           unexpand
kpasswd                         uniq
krb5-config                     units
kswitch                         unpack200
ktrace                          unvis
kvno                            unzip
lam                             unzipsfx
last                            update_prebinding
lastcomm                        update_prebinding_core
latency                         update_sharing
ldapadd                         uptime
ldapcompare                     users
ldapdelete                      uudecode
ldapmodify                      uuencode
ldapmodrdn                      uuidgen
ldappasswd                      vi
ldapsearch                      view
ldapwhoami                      vim
leave                           vimdiff
less                            vimtutor
lessecho                        vis
lesskey                         vm_stat
libnetcfg                       vmmap
lipo                            w
lkbib                           wait
locale                          wall
localedef                       wbinfo
locate                          wc
lock                            whatis
lockfile                        whereis
logger                          which
login                           who
logname                         whoami
look                            whois
lookbib                         wish
lp                              wish8.4
lpoptions                       write
lppasswd                        wx-config
lpq                             wxPerl
lpr                             xargs
lprm                            xgrid
lpstat                          xml2-config
lsbom                           xmlcatalog
lsvfs                           xmllint
mDNS                            xslt-config
machine                         xsltproc
mail                            xsubpp
mailq                           xxd
mailstat                        yes
mailx                           ypcat
makeinfo                        ypmatch
man                             ypwhich
manpath                         zcat
md                              zcmp
mdfind                          zdiff
mdimport                        zegrep
mdls                            zfgrep
mdutil                          zforce
mesg                            zgrep
mib2c                           zip
mib2c-update                    zipcloak
mkafmmap                        zipgrep
mkbom                           zipinfo
mkfifo                          zipnote
mklocale                        zipsplit
mktemp                          zless
mmroff                          zmore
mnthome                         znew
more                            zprint
msgs

mike-macbookpro:~ mike$ ls /usr/sbin
AppleFileServer         ktutil                  rmt
BootCacheControl        languagesetup           rndc
DirectoryService        logresolve              rndc-confgen
KernelEventAgent        lookupd                 rotatelogs
ab                      lpadmin                 rpc.lockd
ac                      lpc                     rpc.statd
accept                  lpinfo                  rpcinfo
accton                  lpmove                  rtadvd
apachectl               lsof                    rtsold
appletalk               lwresd                  rwhod
apxs                    mDNSResponder           sa
arp                     makedbm                 sc_auth
asr                     megaraid                screencapture
autobind                memberd                 screenreaderd
automount               mkextunpack             scselect
bless                   mkfile                  scutil
blued                   mkslapdconf             securityd
bootparamd              mountd                  sendmail
bpwhoami                mtree                   setkey
cac_anchors             named                   slapadd
cac_cron                named-checkconf         slapcat
chat                    named-checkzone         slapdn
chown                   natd                    slapindex
chroot                  ndp                     slappasswd
configd                 netinfod                slaptest
coreaudiod              netstat                 slp_reg
createhomedir           nibindd                 slpd
cron                    nidomain                smbd
cupsaddsmb              nmbd                    snmpd
cupsd                   notifyd                 snmptrapd
dev_mkdb                ntpd                    softwareupdate
diskarbitrationd        ntpdate                 spray
disktool                ntpdc                   sshd
diskutil                ntptrace                stdethers
distnoted               nvram                   stdhosts
dnsextd                 ocspd                   swat
dnssec-keygen           pcscd                   sysctl
dnssec-makekeyset       pdisk                   syslogd
dnssec-signkey          periodic                system_profiler
dnssec-signzone         pmap_dump               systemkeychain
dsconfigad              pmap_set                tcpdchk
dsconfigldap            portmap                 tcpdmatch
dseditgroup             postalias               tcpdump
dsenableroot            postcat                 tim
edquota                 postconf                timed
fdisk                   postdrop                timedc
fsaclctl                postfix                 timutil
gpt                     postkick                traceroute
hdik                    postlock                traceroute6
httpd                   postlog                 trpt
installer               postmap                 update
ioreg                   postqueue               vipw
iostat                  postsuper               visudo
ip6                     pppd                    vpnd
ip6config               pwd_mkdb                vsdbutil
ipconfig                qmasterca               winbindd
kadmin                  qmasterd                xgridctl
kadmin.local            qmasterprefs            xinetd
kadmind                 qmasterqd               ypbind
kdb5_util               quot                    ypinit.sh
kextcache               quotaoff                yppoll
kextstat                quotaon                 yppush
kgmon                   racoon                  ypset
kprop                   rarpd                   ypxfr
kpropd                  reject                  zdump
krb524d                 repquota

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Show me any Mac that costs less than a comparably equipped PC, and I'll eat my words. Including heavily priced Adobe software compared to free Apple software doesn't count.

You're on. Sit down at the dinner table, my friend. I'll let you eat your words with ketchup, 'cuz I do like ya, even when ya spew the Apple-hate. In fact, to make this even more fair (and because I already showed one Mac that costs less than the comparably-equipped Dell), I'm going to use the same machines YOU compared, but we are going to make sure that they are truly "comparably equipped."

But you forgot the joys of open source software....Let's do a price comparison (midline laptops):

Macintosh 15 Inch Macbook Pro:
2.33 GHz Core 2 Duo
2GB DDR2 SDRAM
120GB Serial ATA Drive @ 5400 RPM (Yes, 5400 was the fastest option from the site)
No additional software solutions
$2499

Dell 15.4 Inch Precision Notebook
2.33GHz Core 2 Duo
2GB DDR2 SDRAM
120GB Hard Drive @ 5400 RPM (for not much more, 7200RPM is an option)
No additional software packages
$2226

OK. Looks like you chose the Dell Precision M65 (only "precision" I could find with a 15" screen). Oddly enough, they offer four different OS choices at four different base prices. XP Pro Media ($2392), Vista Ultimate Media ($2442), XP 64-bit with Media ($2125), and Vista Ultimate 64-bit with Media. I'm confused, but I'm so sure that the Mac is a better value, I'm going to start out with the $2125 base price model.

Other similarities: Both include gigabit ethernet, ExpressCard slot, FireWire, and a headphone jack.

The first thing I notice, is that they say "UP TO 2.33 GHz". When you actually go to add the 2.33 GHz processor, the price rockets up another $540.

Now, the display. Apple's 15" MacBook Pro has a 1440x900 display whereas the Dell only has a 1366x768 display. None of Dell's display options match exactly, so we'll leave it at the base model.

Memory... I can't believe Dell still sells a machine with 512MB. Upgrading to the MacBook Pro's standard 2GB adds another $199.

Hard drive... Standard Dell is 60GB? You've gotta be kidding. Upgrade to the MacBook Pro's standard 120GB 5400 RPM drive sets you back another $59.

Oh, and the Mac's standard DVD burner is going to be another $50 upgrade on the Dell.

No WiFi standard on the Dell? Well, we can add a G card for $29, but no option for N at all.

Now, we come to one place where Dell's standard is a bit better - Three years of "Business Standard Plan" hardware support is free. Apple's one-year warranty needs a $349 upgrade. But, again, at least we get to talk to Americans when we call tech support.

One last thing - Apple no longer includes a 56K modem standard. That's a $49 option. I honestly don't miss it, as there's WiFi all over the place and I just bluetooth to my cell phone if there isn't (which is 4-5x faster than the modem was anyway).

OK, where are we so far? Apple $2897, Dell $2948. So, the MacBook Pro has already won!

Let's compare what we have, though.

* Dell has a 512MB graphics card. Pretty nice. The MacBook Pro has 256MB. Neither offer any other options.
* Battery: Apple's is 60WHr, Dell's is 56WHr
* MacBook Pro is 1" thick, Dell is 1.4"
* MacBook Pro is 5.6 pounds, Dell is 6.2 pounds.
* Dell has four USB 2.0 ports, MacBook Pro has two.
* MacBook Pro has dual link DVI, Dell has only a VGA external video port. MacBook Pro also includes a DVI-to-VGA adapter for those who need to link up to older VGA video equipment (presentation projectors, etc.)

But let's see what we're missing. The Mac includes the following things which are not even options on the Dell:

* MacBook Pro has audio input. No option on the Dell. The MacBook Pro's audio in and out jacks have optical digital capability as well.
* MacBook Pro has a built-in video camera and microphone.
* MacBook Pro has Bluetooth 2.0+EDR. No bluetooth at all on this Dell.
* MacBook Pro has FireWire 800 as well as the standard 400.
* For only $2, there is an update that gives the MacBook Pro's WiFi the super-high-speed 802.11n capability.
* MacBook Pro has a backlit keyboard which is WONDERFUL for working in low-light conditions. It also has an ambient light sensor which will automatically adjust keyboard and display brightness.
* Yep, that good ol' remote control is in the box too.

So... Dell has a 512MB graphics card instead of 256MB, and four USB ports instead of two. MacBook Pro has a slightly higher-capacity battery, is thinner and lighter, and offers a whole host of features that aren't even options on the Dell. This was one of the more difficult comparisons to make because it wasn't possible to get completely identical specs, but the Mac obviously has more standard features and was still 50 bucks cheaper.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Show me any Mac that costs less than a comparably equipped PC, and I'll eat my words.

All right Nick, I've now showed you two.

I will be printing this thread and bringing it to Gaston's. And you are going to be eating it. Bring your own ketchup.

Then when you're done, we can all go throw Jesse into the river.

 

[SkyHog]

All right Nick, I've now showed you two.

I will be printing this thread and bringing it to Gaston's. And you are going to be eating it. Bring your own ketchup.

Then when you're done, we can all go throw Jesse into the river.

Ahh, you did it differently than I did, apparantly, because those options you added were the same ones I added to get the prices I quoted:

Base model: Dell Precision M65 $1576

Added: 233GHz processor ($540)
Added: 120GB Hard Drive at 5400 (apple's top speed) ($40)
Added: 2GB Ram ($130)
Added: 802.11g (Free)
Total price: $2286

So, there ya go. Still cheaper, using the same options you added.

And that's my point.

edit: I don't know what's causing the $40 discrepency. I have two browers open, identical options, $40 price difference....odd.

 

[SkyHog]

Yeah, cause real hard to find open source software for a system that runs on Unix, where open source software began.

And you're missing the point that the software is available to either, not just PC, not just Mac, so saying "Macs have all the software you'll need, for FREE" doesn't hold water.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Ahh, you did it differently than I did, apparantly, because those options you added were the same ones I added to get the prices I quoted:

<snip>

edit: I don't know what's causing the $40 discrepency. I have two browers open, identical options, $40 price difference....odd.

Weird. OK, how'd you get a base of 1586?

I didn't get the Precision when I looked at the "home and small office" which I figured was a good place to start for comparing with the regular MacBook that Bill was looking at. I figured the high-end stuff must be under "Medium or Large Business" so that's where I started. Did you start with "Small business?" I hate how they split it up like that, you can't find what you want to find. Maybe I want it for home use, but I'm a power user? Sheesh.

So what's the difference between a $1500 Precision and a $2100 precision with the same model number and specs anyway?

Either way, if you look at my other comparison, the Mac is clearly cheaper than the comparable PC. Eat up!

 

[flyingcheesehead]

And you're missing the point that the software is available to either, not just PC, not just Mac, so saying "Macs have all the software you'll need, for FREE" doesn't hold water.

But likewise, it's not an advantage to the PC side either.

At least with the Mac you can run the open-source UNIX stuff at the same time as your mainstream GUI and not have to conjure up a messy dual-boot system.

 

[SkyHog]

If you can't afford a $599 Mac Mini, there are plenty of options in the used market.

Well, lets look at this "Mac Mini" at $599:
1.66ghz
512MB RAM
60GB HD (no speed, probably not even 5400, since Apple HDs are so slow)
No keyboard or mouse
No Monitor
No Modem


Now, lets go with a 3rd party computer manufacturer for similar stuff (we'll stick to $599, since I don't have all night to search for an equally deficient computer as the Mac Mini)
Tigerdirect.com: $599
3GHz
1GB RAM
250GB HD at 7200RPM
PS/2 3 Button Mouse
PS/2 Keyboard
No Monitor
No Modem

So that already beats the hell out of the Mac Mini, lets dig a bit deeper:

No mention of audio capability on the Mac Mini, but there is a 6 channel Integrated Sound Card on the PC.

No mention of the video chipset/memory on the Mac Mini, but the PC comes with an integrated 64MB(shared) video card.

Nothing on the Mac Mini, but the PC comes with a 9 in 1 media reader (for many different types of data cards, like the ones in cameras)

The PC Comes with Windows XP, and the Mac comes with OSX. Should you want to later switch to Windows, you gotta pony up the bucks to Microsoft (hint: it ain't cheap).

And that is what I meant by 3rd party goodness, and how Macs have been missing out.

edit: A link would help: http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=2787756&Tab=2&NoMapp=0

 

[flyingcheesehead]

No mention of audio capability on the Mac Mini, but there is a 6 channel Integrated Sound Card on the PC.

No mention of the video chipset/memory on the Mac Mini, but the PC comes with an integrated 64MB(shared) video card.

The Mini, like all Macs, has built-in audio. It also has built-in video. Kinda has to, I don't think there are any slots in it. Too small.


That said, you'll always be able to find a cheaper, crappier PC than Mac. The Mac is not a low-end computer. The Mini exists for the person who can't afford an iMac and has their old PC keyboard, mouse, and monitor to throw on it. (Frankly, it's not a bad little machine for what it is.) You can't build yourself a new Mac. Whoopty do. Frankly, IMHO, Apple has been smart to avoid clawing their way to the low end of the market.

However, the mid and high range machines are a better value than PC's... And it's been a long time since the "Macs are expensive" thing was true. We got that reputation back in the day with machines like the Mac IIfx (IIfx = "Two" ****ing Xpensive!) which came with a mouse. No keyboard, no monitor, no video card. $10,000. Very innovative machine, sure, and the first with many technologies that are in common use today (Direct Memory Access, separate I/O controllers, etc.) but just unreasonably expensive. That really is no longer the case... Go back and look at my other price comparison. Plus, the last three times I've bought a new Mac (2000, 2005, 2006) I've done the comparison and every one of them came out in Apple's favor.

 

[rpadula]

Looks like you guys have got this one under control!

Bill, I absolutely LOVE my little white MacBook.

If you want to spend the least $$ just to learn, then Mike's right -- go to the Apple store refurb section and pick. When they're there, you can get the original 1.83 GHz Core Duo 512 RAM/60GB HD model for $799. That one only has the CD-burner, not the SuperDrive DVD burner, so you've got to really ask yourself if you want to burn DVD movies, or just play with movies on the web/ipod, etc. I used to have a SuperDrive since my G4 days, but I think I burned something like 3 DVD's in the 4 years I had them, so out it went!!!

Usually, the base 1.83 GHz Core 2 Duo 512/60 refurbs are $949. If you think you'll keep the machine for a while, the Core 2 Duo runs much cooler than the original (although I don't think mine is all that bad).

RAM has fallen a ton since January 2007. Here are two from newegg I've put in mine and others' machines. They were about $105 when I bought in January, now $65.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16820150063
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16820146126

You don't have to put RAM in pairs in the Macbook. I have 1.25 in mine (1GB + 256M). The analysis of the penalty for this (it's graphics chip related) is only about 5% on certain intensive things. Day-to-day, you won't notice. But RAM is now cheap, so 2GB is the way to go. BTW, 2GB is the max. you can put in a MacBook.

The other great thing about the MacBook is that the internal hard drive is user-changeable, without taking the whole damn thing apart! I put my original 60GB in a backup USB case and installed this Hitachi 160GB job:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16822145113

OH, and don't forget the MagSafe power cord. Truly a work of genius!!!

And I have no idea what Nick was smoking when he said this:

Macintosh: Most software requires either emulation or installation of Windows (which is touted as the reason most people choose Macs, to avoid Windows)

I mean, theoretically this is true, since most software that exists is written for Windows, so if you want to use "most software," you can install Windows now that Macs have "Intel inside." In the real world, there are native Mac apps for all the useful things. My mom, however, still misses the Windows' Solitaire when I gave them my old Mac. Need to find her a replacement


-Rich

P.S. You wanna see what one can do with a Mac for filmmaking, read this profile, which just showed up in my weekly Apple newsletter.

 

[tdager]

LOL...the Mac vs. PC wars are almost as fun as Windows vs. Linux!

Look, if the mission fits and you (the proverbial you, not anyone in particular) then get it, if not go PC.

I hate to burst either camps bubble but one is not "better" than the other, they each have their strengths and weaknesses. For me a Mac would never work too much I do requires Windows software (and emulation just does not cut it for me).

However if a Mac worked I would consider it (though I must admit I am not fond of being linked with the Mac-fanatic crowd, just like I do not ride a Harley because of the large amount of RUB's that ride them).

 

[SkyHog]

However if a Mac worked I would consider it (though I must admit I am not fond of being linked with the Mac-fanatic crowd, just like I do not ride a Harley because of the large amount of RUB's that ride them).

I think this is what makes me get so fired up about this topic. If there weren't people that responded to ever PC support thread with "Get a mac" or there wasn't the rampant "fanboyism" over the Mac, I would probably tell people: "Sure, the Mac's ok, if you want to use it, have a blast!"

But instead, I think there is an important note to give to all prospective mac buyers: "You're going to become pompass, and be willing to overlook any flaws in the Macintosh design, because you will honestly believe that your computer is better than anything else ever made. You will look arrogant in discussions about computers and people will just not want to discuss them with you anymore."

I think Macs should come with warning stickers.

 

[Bill]

just like I do not ride a Harley because of the large amount of RUB's that ride them).

What DO you ride?

 

[jesse]

But you forgot the joys of open source software....Let's do a price comparison (midline laptops):

Find me something comparable to Photoshop that is open source and I'll love you forever. GIMP is not NEAR comparable. GIMP works good for resizing a picture or something simple but that's about it.

Also find me some open source video editing software. Everything I've used is pretty horrid and buggy. Everything is more or less in the Alpha stage of development. After a *lot* of messing around I finally came up with a combination in Ubuntu that'll let me do decent video editing but it's by no means easy and is still buggy. Did I mention it wasn't easy and it was still buggy as can be?

This combination is:
http://heroinewarrior.com/cinelerra.php3
http://ffmpeg.mplayerhq.hu/

 

[wbarnhill]

Don't Macs come with the MS Office Suite as well? Heck, even the Student edition of that for PCs is about 150 - 200$.

 

[jason]

Don't Macs come with the MS Office Suite as well? Heck, even the Student edition of that for PCs is about 150 - 200$.

No, they don't. The mac comes with apple's version of office stuff. MS Office for the mac is way old and in need of a refresh. (I think it's supposed to be coming later this year).

 

[mikea]

Don't Macs come with the MS Office Suite as well? Heck, even the Student edition of that for PCs is about 150 - 200$.

Macs come with a teaser demo install of Office for the Mac, so if you click on .doc file it launches Word, and starts the 30 day shutoff countdown timer. Just like for PCs, Office is $400, or (I think) $170 for a Student/ Teacher edition.

Microsoft is currently delaying the release of an Office for Mac update to punish Apple for coming out with Pages and Safari. You can guess how well that's working out for Microsoft.

Open Office is free. NeoOffice is Open Office Macified. Both work fine with MS Office docs.

Also Apple Textedit which is incldued and free will open Word files just fine. So will Apple Pages, but that's part of the $79(?) iWorks suite.

Balmer and Gates jsut started giving their expert opinion that the iPhone will be rejected in business becuase it won't be able to sync with Outlook and Excahnge. (And they'll try their damndest to make sure it never can.) More than one pundit said that might be a good reason to look into getting rid of Outlook and Exchange, and besides small business people, who will want something better and aren't locked in, will think that's a plus.

MS has reinforced the locks on the gate but there are more and more huge holes in the fence every day.

 

[jesse]

Outlook and Exchange, and besides small business people, who will want something better and aren't locked in, will think that's a plus.

What is better than Outlook/Exchange? As much as I hate Microsoft I will not be switching from either anytime soon. They are perfect for small and medium business.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

You don't have to put RAM in pairs in the Macbook. I have 1.25 in mine (1GB + 256M). The analysis of the penalty for this (it's graphics chip related) is only about 5% on certain intensive things. Day-to-day, you won't notice.

Interesting. Didn't know that. I guess that's why Apple won't sell you one from the factory with unbalanced RAM.

OH, and don't forget the MagSafe power cord. Truly a work of genius!!!

Amen to that!

My mom, however, still misses the Windows' Solitaire when I gave them my old Mac. Need to find her a replacement

Don't they still include "Eric's Solitaire Sampler" on new machines? If not, the full version of it is "Eric's Ultimate Solitaire" I think, and it has on the order of 30-40 different solitaire games. That should keep her busy.

P.S. You wanna see what one can do with a Mac for filmmaking, read this profile, which just showed up in my weekly Apple newsletter.

That's pretty cool.