Sell me a Mac!

ReverendSlappy said:
Here's my input: Generally speaking, if you by a Mac or a name-brand PC, you're getting ripped off, paying way too much for way too little. Period. I know it's not an option for everybody, but build it yourself and you get a lot more for your money... Maybe find a local vendor to do it. In any case, whether it's an Apple or a Dell, you're just paying a lot of extra money for no reason other than to make Mr. Jobs or Mr. Dell richer.
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As a builder I will say that it's really hard, if not impossible, to compete with Dell or the like on the simple whitebox pc with nothing fancy. In order to get an edge on Dell you really need to step up into the higher performance systems.

The Mac mini really is not that bad of a deal. $500 gets you into the mac world with a core two duo and decent video software. I'm thinking about buying one myself.
 
jesse said:
As a builder I will say that it's really hard, if not impossible, to compete with Dell or the like on the simple whitebox pc with nothing fancy. In order to get an edge on Dell you really need to step up into the higher performance systems.
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That's true... Their lower-end systems are pretty well priced. I guess I was just looking at it from my perspective, which is that if you're going to build yourself a system, there's no reason not to build one at least near top of the line. And that's where, at least in my experience, you can save some serious cash over Dell and Apple and the others.

jesse said:
The Mac mini really is not that bad of a deal. $500 gets you into the mac world with a core two duo and decent video software. I'm thinking about buying one myself.
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If video work is really important, than sure, that may be the way to go. But without that requirement, I think I could better spend $500 on a system to run a pretty desktop manager on top of BSD (which, I'm sorry, IMHO is all OS X really is.)
 
ReverendSlappy said:
That's true... Their lower-end systems are pretty well priced. I guess I was just looking at it from my perspective, which is that if you're going to build yourself a system, there's no reason not to build one at least near top of the line. And that's where, at least in my experience, you can save some serious cash over Dell and Apple and the others.
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I build pretty high end systems for me, but I've taken the opposite approach for those that I support. For instance, I have my dad buy the cheapest damn computer he can find. Then, when it needs to be replaced in 2-3 years he doesn't hesitate to go out and buy a new one.

I started doing this after spending six years taking care of one of his old computers because "I spent $2200 on that thing, I'm not just going to throw it out the door."

I finally just plain refused to fix it. I told him that if he wanted to continue to receive free tech support he was going to buy another computer. $500 later he was slapping himself for not doing it sooner.
 
FlyNE said:
I build pretty high end systems for me, but I've taken the opposite approach for those that I support. For instance, I have my dad buy the cheapest damn computer he can find. Then, when it needs to be replaced in 2-3 years he doesn't hesitate to go out and buy a new one.

I started doing this after spending six years taking care of one of his old computers because "I spent $2200 on that thing, I'm not just going to throw it out the door."

I finally just plain refused to fix it. I told him that if he wanted to continue to receive free tech support he was going to buy another computer. $500 later he was slapping himself for not doing it sooner.
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Yeah, that seems pretty wise... I took the same tack with my parents: "Spend enough to get what only you need, and not a dime more."
 
ReverendSlappy said:
but build it yourself and you get a lot more for your money... Maybe find a local vendor to do it.
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My windows deskside I did build myself, three years ago (it was a decent hotrod at the time), with the help of a friend, and it still chugs merrily along. But, I don't know so much about building a laptop, can you buy decent cases, and start from there?

I think I'll stick with a ready built for a laptop.
 
Bill Jennings said:
My windows deskside I did build myself, three years ago (it was a decent hotrod at the time), with the help of a friend, and it still chugs merrily along. But, I don't know so much about building a laptop, can you buy decent cases, and start from there?

I think I'll stick with a ready built for a laptop.
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Um... yeeeah... I guess I forgot this thread was originally about laptops. :redface:

Yeah, in that case, you're significantly better off going with one of the big names. :)
 
ReverendSlappy said:
That's true... Their lower-end systems are pretty well priced. I guess I was just looking at it from my perspective, which is that if you're going to build yourself a system, there's no reason not to build one at least near top of the line. And that's where, at least in my experience, you can save some serious cash over Dell and Apple and the others.

If video work is really important, than sure, that may be the way to go. But without that requirement, I think I could better spend $500 on a system to run a pretty desktop manager on top of BSD (which, I'm sorry, IMHO is all OS X really is.)
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Lol! The part that is BSD (really Mach "Darwin") is the underlying OS. The UI and applications are all Apple by way of Next. No open source UI is the same.

I only justified buying my first, a Mac Mini, because I knew if all else flailed I could make it a server and even install Yellow Dog Linux if the Unix-ish OS was not capable. I didn't have to install anything. I haven't had a single problem with it or my Macbook Pro.


Isn't pretty sad when you say a product is better because it's so cheap when it envitably goes to crap you can buy a new one? My time is worth soemthing. The new machine will take a week to get back where I was, and having my data and favorite applciations on it might be something handy, too.

On my home built Windows screamer, I cannot get sound from DVD playing no matter what, no way, no how, uninstall, reinstall try other DVD players - uh, uh. I can see the movie fiine, just in silence. I searched and searched and evidently I'm the only one in the world who has this problem. Every tech note says the codec just works - only it doesn't. And that's just one fun problem.
 
mikea said:
On my home built Windows screamer, I cannot get sound from DVD playing no matter what, no way, no how, uninstall, reinstall try other DVD players - uh, uh. I can see the movie fiine, just in silence. I searched and searched and evidently I'm the only one in the world who has this problem. Every tech note says the codec just works - only it doesn't. And that's just one fun problem.
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Funny how every PC has major problems and all macs run without a hitch.

Have you watched the first 5 minutes of Diggnation #58 yet? Kevin Rose is as much of a zealot as the two of you...and just watch how flawlessly his mac works for him.

Mike, all computers have issues. Macs are not immune. Please be objective.
 
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FlyNE said:
Funny how every PC has major problems and all macs run without a hitch.

Have you watched the first 5 minutes of Diggnation #58 yet? Kevin Rose is as much of a zealot as the two of you...and just watch how flawlessly his mac works for him.

Mike, all computers have issues. Macs are not immune. Please be objective.
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That's too funny. Macs are great!
1177962710.jpg
 
FlyNE said:
I hear ya, Kent, I hear ya...(hmm, where did those links come from?)
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Ouch! Note that I never said Macs were perfect. :no: I myself have had several issues with this latest machine, very uncharacteristic for Apple but I guess in this day and age when they have to stoop to the lows of the rest of the industry and outsource all their manufacturing to stay competitive. :(

I've had the delete key fall off the keyboard (<mutters something about editing skills> :redface:) which was replaced at the Apple Store while I waited. I was having frequent kernel panics which were solved with a firmware update (automatically downloaded via Software Update). Finally, I did have the bulging battery problem (thanks, Sony :no:) and Apple happily replaced the battery for free with a simple phone call. And did I mention that said phone call was answered by someone right here in the good old US of A?

Kent, if you're going to bring it...then please at least talk about stuff that happened in the last 20 years.
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Java... Mosaic... That's all Internet Age stuff. Plus, it's so difficult to compete with Microsoft any more that not as much has happened in the computer industry lately.

For God's sake...take them down off of their pedestal and let's have these discussions with some objectivity.
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Hey, nobody said they were perfect. They just make a good product that a lot of their customers happen to believe in. I've also never said that they're the be-all and end-all solution. I used to have a consulting business, and when the situation demanded Windows, I recommended Windows. However, the number of situations where Windows is the best solution is a lot lower than some people like to think. Your average non-Mac-using consultant will take any random small business and say that Windows is better because "You can't get enough software for the Mac" and that sort of thing, and then sell the client a computer system with a POP mail client, a web browser, Microsoft Office, and QuickBooks Pro. (These are all available on the Mac.) Of course, that consultant also knows that client will be calling him back every three weeks (see below), so it's more profitable for him to recommend Windows.

Here's where the three weeks comes from. Our Windows clients had an average time between callbacks of 3 weeks while the Mac clients had an average time between callbacks of 6 months. Being the Mac guy, I not only took care of all the Mac clients, I ran our servers, did the accounting and taxes, did all of the web and database work, and assisted with the Windows stuff while my partner was so swamped with just the Windows clients that he couldn't do anything else. (FWIW, we had a roughly equal number of Mac and Windows clients - Add in the web/database work and I had a ton more.)
 
ReverendSlappy said:
If history is any indicator, Apple's about to flush itself down the toilet. Again.
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No doubt you're referring to Apple's old history of up-and-down fortunes... Lots of people made a lot of money buying Apple when they went in the tank, and selling when they got higher.

They've done MUCH better in the last 10 years, being on the upswing pretty much the entire time. I keep thinking "Jeez, I shoulda bought some Apple stock a year ago, but there's no point now 'cuz it's as high as it's gonna go" but I'm wrong again, every time. :(

As soon as I *do* buy Apple stock, that's when it's really gonna tank. I'll buy some Apple stock and the next day Steve Jobs' Gulfstream with crash, and Jonathan Ive will be on board too. :eek:
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Ouch! Note that I never said Macs were perfect. :no: I myself have had several issues with this latest machine, very uncharacteristic for Apple but I guess in this day and age when they have to stoop to the lows of the rest of the industry and outsource all their manufacturing to stay competitive. :(

I've had the delete key fall off the keyboard (<mutters something about editing skills> :redface:) which was replaced at the Apple Store while I waited. I was having frequent kernel panics which were solved with a firmware update (automatically downloaded via Software Update). Finally, I did have the bulging battery problem (thanks, Sony :no:) and Apple happily replaced the battery for free with a simple phone call. And did I mention that said phone call was answered by someone right here in the good old US of A?
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There, that wasn't so hard, was it? That's all I've been wanting all along. Some kind of admission of fallibility...no matter how small.

I run Lenovo laptops. For $250 I get a 3 year no-fault warranty. I can call them and tell them I just dropped my laptop out of a moving car...on purpose...and they'd send somebody out to fix it. That rep would also be American.

flyingcheesehead said:
Hey, nobody said they were perfect. They just make a good product that a lot of their customers happen to believe in. I've also never said that they're the be-all and end-all solution. I used to have a consulting business, and when the situation demanded Windows, I recommended Windows. However, the number of situations where Windows is the best solution is a lot lower than some people like to think. Your average non-Mac-using consultant will take any random small business and say that Windows is better because "You can't get enough software for the Mac" and that sort of thing, and then sell the client a computer system with a POP mail client, a web browser, Microsoft Office, and QuickBooks Pro. (These are all available on the Mac.) Of course, that consultant also knows that client will be calling him back every three weeks (see below), so it's more profitable for him to recommend Windows.

Here's where the three weeks comes from. Our Windows clients had an average time between callbacks of 3 weeks while the Mac clients had an average time between callbacks of 6 months. Being the Mac guy, I not only took care of all the Mac clients, I ran our servers, did the accounting and taxes, did all of the web and database work, and assisted with the Windows stuff while my partner was so swamped with just the Windows clients that he couldn't do anything else. (FWIW, we had a roughly equal number of Mac and Windows clients - Add in the web/database work and I had a ton more.)
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We are the sum of our experiences. I appreciate your experience and your expertise. I'll never bash a Mac or you for running one.

I run the IT department of a small company (~80 employees). Linux, Windows, Mac...we have it all. I manage the servers and the Help Desk. We have a 75%/25% Windows to Mac split on the desktop. I'm fairly familiar with the support requirements of both. I compile numbers to present to management quarterly. Your numbers are not indicative of my experience.
 
FlyNE said:
I run Lenovo laptops. For $250 I get a 3 year no-fault warranty. I can call them and tell them I just dropped my laptop out of a moving car...on purpose...and they'd send somebody out to fix it. That rep would also be American.
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Glad to hear there's at least two companies who still give a crap! :yes:

I manage the servers and the Help Desk. We have a 75%/25% Windows to Mac split on the desktop. I'm fairly familiar with the support requirements of both. I compile numbers to present to management quarterly. Your numbers are not indicative of my experience.
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What are you doing with them? Most of our non-business clients were average-joe-user types. Business clients ranged from a high-end catering business to design firms to Firstar Bank (now USBank). Can you believe that in a corporation that huge, they didn't have anyone to support their Mac users? Well, OK, stupid question. :rofl:

More specialized uses for both can be categorized in three areas: Does it really well, does it with lots of effort, or flat-out won't do it. The "does it with lots of effort" cases would often be better off on the other platform. However, multi-use machines often seen in corporate environments often
have a primary use that fits the "does it really well" category but with secondary uses that fit in the "needs effort" category - For instance, Firstar's marketing department, which had Macs for designing stuff ("does it really well") but had to fit in with the Lotus Notes stuff in the corporation ("needs effort").

In this case, what Bill's mission is fits into the "does it really well" category on the Mac. Less hassle with viruses/spyware is a plus, and he just might learn something in the process. Worst case, he hates it, wipes the drive, installs Windows, and has one of the best-looking Windows laptops in the world.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
As soon as I *do* buy Apple stock, that's when it's really gonna tank. I'll buy some Apple stock and the next day Steve Jobs' Gulfstream with crash, and Jonathan Ive will be on board too. :eek:
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Hehe... I know the feeling, believe me.

That said, now is definitely not the right time to buy. I'm certainly no expert, but I think their stock is waaaaaay overpriced right now. It'll come back down to earth over the coming months, I think, then get another bump if iPhone sales live up to the hype -- which, given the hysteria surrounding it, I think will be a tall order. Business users are unlikely to adopt it, and regular Joe Average Consumer ain't gonna shell out $500-$600 for a phone. I don't think they'll really start moving them until the price inevitably comes down.

Anyway, yeah, as a company, I don't have a whole lotta faith in AAPL. Maybe it's just that bitter taste I still have in my mouth from the dark 90's, but I just always feel like their on the edge of oblivion. At some point, even Steve Jobs has to run out of ideas. :p
 
flyingcheesehead said:
What are you doing with them? Most of our non-business clients were average-joe-user types. Business clients ranged from a high-end catering business to design firms to Firstar Bank (now USBank). Can you believe that in a corporation that huge, they didn't have anyone to support their Mac users? Well, OK, stupid question. :rofl:

More specialized uses for both can be categorized in three areas: Does it really well, does it with lots of effort, or flat-out won't do it. The "does it with lots of effort" cases would often be better off on the other platform. However, multi-use machines often seen in corporate environments often
have a primary use that fits the "does it really well" category but with secondary uses that fit in the "needs effort" category - For instance, Firstar's marketing department, which had Macs for designing stuff ("does it really well") but had to fit in with the Lotus Notes stuff in the corporation ("needs effort").
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We're very similar to the bank. They're used primarily by creatives (does it well)...who need to interact with our other employees on MS Exchange (does it with lots of effort).

In small businesses they can function well with the other computers. They tie into Active Directory (if you have one), they print to the same printers, etc.

But here is where they start lose, in my opinion, in a corporate environment. We run a package called LanDesk on our network. It helps us to manage our fleet of computers. On the PC side we use it to...
  • deploy OS images
  • push out software installs
  • push out OS updates
  • push out software updates
  • inventory hardware
  • inventory software
  • run advanced queries against those inventory lists
  • enable security locks on USB ports and other removable media
  • notify our staff when an issue arises
  • remotely monitor/control the computer
  • etc.
On the Mac side, the software allows us to
  • inventory hardware
  • remotely monitor/control the computer
I just can't find a package that does for Macs what LanDesk allows us to do on the PC side of things. With tools such as these we can dramatically cut down on the number of Help Desk agents needed per desk.

Before you say it, yes, it does need it. As I've said before, Macs are not immune to issues. Just yesterday we had a software install on a Mac that didn't go well and the computer would lock up upon reboot. That software install had to be done by us sending a tech to the desktop. On a PC we would have pushed it out and automatically rebooted. The install would have worked because the OS itself was an exact clone (image) of our master install, which we rolled out by just booting it off of our network. Those are the types of efficiencies I gain in PC land.


flyingcheesehead said:
In this case, what Bill's mission is fits into the "does it really well" category on the Mac. Less hassle with viruses/spyware is a plus, and he just might learn something in the process. Worst case, he hates it, wipes the drive, installs Windows, and has one of the best-looking Windows laptops in the world.
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Agreed. Which is why I was the second person to respond telling him to buy one. :D
 
FlyNE said:
We're very similar to the bank. They're used primarily by creatives (does it well)...who need to interact with our other employees on MS Exchange (does it with lots of effort).

In small businesses they can function well with the other computers. They tie into Active Directory (if you have one), they print to the same printers, etc.

But here is where they start lose, in my opinion, in a corporate environment. We run a package called LanDesk on our network. It helps us to manage our fleet of computers. On the PC side we use it to...
  • deploy OS images
  • push out software installs
  • push out OS updates
  • push out software updates
  • inventory hardware
  • inventory software
  • run advanced queries against those inventory lists
  • enable security locks on USB ports and other removable media
  • notify our staff when an issue arises
  • remotely monitor/control the computer
  • etc.
On the Mac side, the software allows us to
  • inventory hardware
  • remotely monitor/control the computer
I just can't find a package that does for Macs what LanDesk allows us to do on the PC side of things. With tools such as these we can dramatically cut down on the number of Help Desk agents needed per desk.

Before you say it, yes, it does need it. As I've said before, Macs are not immune to issues. Just yesterday we had a software install on a Mac that didn't go well and the computer would lock up upon reboot. That software install had to be done by us sending a tech to the desktop. On a PC we would have pushed it out and automatically rebooted. The install would have worked because the OS itself was an exact clone (image) of our master install, which we rolled out by just booting it off of our network. Those are the types of efficiencies I gain in PC land.




Agreed. Which is why I was the second person to respond telling him to buy one. :D
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When it comes to centralized management, imaging, software distribution, inventory, etc. etc. etc. -- all that enterprise type stuff, Windows just can't be touched. Between the MS stuff (SMS, Group Policy, etc.) and third party apps, Apple and even Linux just don't compare.

Sure you can do all those things with Macs and Linux. I've talked to plenty of Linux people in particular who've been like, "Yeah, I can do that too... I've got a shell script I wrote that runs on a crontab blah blah blah..." but the point is that with the Windows stuff, it works pretty much right out of the box with minimal engineering. To put it in perspective, at my last job, after a few weeks of engineering, and couple "build" weeks, we rolled out an SMS infrastructure that enabled us to patch 97% of 22,000+ Windows boxes across North America. Within 1 day of patch release. With a staff of 2 operators running it. I mean that's really pretty much unbeatable in the Mac and Linux worlds.
 
ReverendSlappy said:
When it comes to centralized management, imaging, software distribution, inventory, etc. etc. etc. -- all that enterprise type stuff, Windows just can't be touched. Between the MS stuff (SMS, Group Policy, etc.) and third party apps, Apple and even Linux just don't compare.

Sure you can do all those things with Macs and Linux. I've talked to plenty of Linux people in particular who've been like, "Yeah, I can do that too... I've got a shell script I wrote that runs on a crontab blah blah blah..." but the point is that with the Windows stuff, it works pretty much right out of the box with minimal engineering. To put it in perspective, at my last job, after a few weeks of engineering, and couple "build" weeks, we rolled out an SMS infrastructure that enabled us to patch 97% of 22,000+ Windows boxes across North America. Within 1 day of patch release. With a staff of 2 operators running it. I mean that's really pretty much unbeatable in the Mac and Linux worlds.
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Depends.

RedHat has a lot of tools to make that stuff just as easy--if not easier.
 
jesse said:
Depends.

RedHat has a lot of tools to make that stuff just as easy--if not easier.
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There's been some major steps forward, for sure. And my experience with it is somewhat limited (circumstances almost always dictated that we did our open systems patching/maintenance semi-manually). But I still think MS takes that contest by a pretty wide margin. Believe me, I'll come down on Microsoft when they deserve it, but in this case, it's something that they actually did pretty goshdarn well -- probably better than anybody else out there.
 
FlyNE said:
We're very similar to the bank. They're used primarily by creatives (does it well)...who need to interact with our other employees on MS Exchange (does it with lots of effort).
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Yeah, that kinda sticks you with spending some extra time on the Macs, uh, "helping" Exchange. I did get called back to the bank more often than every 6 months (maybe 3-4 instead), usually 'cuz "They did something to the Notes server and broke it again." The implementation of Notes on the Mac really sucked... If they'd have put any effort into it, things could have been much better.

I just can't find a package that does for Macs what LanDesk allows us to do on the PC side of things. With tools such as these we can dramatically cut down on the number of Help Desk agents needed per desk.
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I believe Apple Remote Desktop will do the vast majority of what's on your list, the exception being (I think) the inventory stuff. I have a friend who manages a Mac network and I think he might have spun his own database to do that. I can ask him if you want.

The install would have worked because the OS itself was an exact clone (image) of our master install, which we rolled out by just booting it off of our network. Those are the types of efficiencies I gain in PC land.
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Macs can "net-boot" too, and I used to do the image thing on any network larger than about 5 machines. There's nothing saying you can't do that stuff on the Mac... Why aren't you? :dunno: (that's a semi-rhetorical question, not a rip BTW! It's not always the best solution.)

Agreed. Which is why I was the second person to respond telling him to buy one. :D
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:redface:
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Yeah, that kinda sticks you with spending some extra time on the Macs, uh, "helping" Exchange. I did get called back to the bank more often than every 6 months (maybe 3-4 instead), usually 'cuz "They did something to the Notes server and broke it again." The implementation of Notes on the Mac really sucked... If they'd have put any effort into it, things could have been much better.
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Let's be fair, though: the implementation of Notes sucks on pretty much everything. :D

Disclaimer: I hate the Notes client with the burning passion of 10,000 suns... Even when Exchange was a bloated mess (which it really isn't anymore... doesn't require near the level of infrastructure it used to), I'd have taken it any day over Notes (whose infrastructure was at the time a lot more sane) just so I could use Outlook instead of the Notes client... Gaaah... it makes me cringe just thinking about trying to copy and paste in it... :vomit:
 
True story? From wikipedia:

"In the new Finder siderbar, all Windows PCs connected to the same local network of a Mac running Leopard are shown with an icon representing a CRT monitor displaying the blue screen of death"
 
SkyHog said:
True story? From wikipedia:

"In the new Finder siderbar, all Windows PCs connected to the same local network of a Mac running Leopard are shown with an icon representing a CRT monitor displaying the blue screen of death"
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I dunno - I don't associate with lowly Windows PC's. ;) :rofl:

I couldn't find anything about it on Snopes, but heck, if it's true, I think it's pretty darn funny. :D :rofl:
 
flyingcheesehead said:
I dunno - I don't associate with lowly Windows PC's. ;) :rofl:

I couldn't find anything about it on Snopes, but heck, if it's true, I think it's pretty darn funny. :D :rofl:
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I wouldn't exactly call it the blue screen of death. It is a blue screen--but not quite the right color or design. Apple computers show up as a lighter blue in the same area.

d41qvt31 in the below image is a Windows machine.

finder.jpg
 
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