Sectional use on PP oral & practical

JohnAJohnson

JohnAJohnson

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JohnAJohnson
I've reviewed the latest PTS and am left with a question or two. My grandson will soon start lessons. Does he need paper sectionals or can he use a tablet? I believe one should be able to do all the true and magnetic headings, but of course without the need for a plotter. And for the flight check, is there any reason why a tablet couldn't be used, with GPS (own ship's position) turned off? And if the DPE fails the tablet, could he use a backup tablet instead of a paper sectional?
 
If he isn't able to use a sectional, I don't know of any experienced instructors who would recommend him for a ride in the first place.

iPads are great, I fly with one, but if it's a crutch, it will be taken from the student and his ego will be beaten with it.
 
Examiner will allow a tablet, but they need to understand a sectional and how to navigate via.

Seeing a paper sectional on the DPE's desk for the first time isn't going to end well.
 
I fly with two tablets, backing each other up, one per yoke. They each have all the latest VFR/IFR charts/plates. They do have geo-referencing, connected to either their internal GPS signal or the external GDL-39 (via bluetooth). If a DPE fails an instrument, or an entire system (all electric, all vacuum, etc.) he/she should still allow a backup tablet which is not connected to anything but itself, just like paper. If the DPE declares "GPS signal lost to all devices" (which is a plausible scenario), the student should be able to show navigation without geo-referencing, just like a map. I think the age of paper is behind us.
 
For both my PPL and IFR I did everything on my oral with a paper chart...then flew with iPad and IPhone as backup even with paper on board. Neither DPE "failed" anything as I had demonstrated competence with both formats right outta the gate.

Everyone I know that has done pure digital EFB had had DPE fail one in flight.
 
Shawn said:
For both my PPL and IFR I did everything on my oral with a paper chart...then flew with iPad and IPhone as backup even with paper on board. Neither DPE "failed" anything as I had demonstrated competence with both formats right outta the gate.

Everyone I know that has done pure digital EFB had had DPE fail one in flight.
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As many have stated, I think that being able to use a paper sectional during the oral is important, and am glad to hear the tablet is acceptable during the flight (with a backup and factoring in a loss of GPS signal). It seems contrary to the concept of being able to do the job with minimal crutches, but really, it is so much safer for a student to view a sectional on a tablet vs. having to wrestle with a folding chart, especially if the tablet is mounted as mine is, on the A-Pillar and easily manipulated by the resting hand.
 
Agree, he needs to be able to use a paper sectional. But it looks like he won't necessarily have to on the check ride itself.

James331 said:
If he isn't able to use a sectional, I don't know of any experienced instructors who would recommend him for a ride in the first place.

iPads are great, I fly with one, but if it's a crutch, it will be taken from the student and his ego will be beaten with it.
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JohnAJohnson said:
Agree, he needs to be able to use a paper sectional. But it looks like he won't necessarily have to on the check ride itself.
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Perhaps, but I wouldn't want to show up for a VFR PPL ride without a sectional, nor would I ever recommend a student who has never navigated without battery powered consumer electronics as his main source of info.
 
James331 said:
Perhaps, but I wouldn't want to show up for a VFR PPL ride without a sectional, nor would I ever recommend a student who has never navigated without battery powered consumer electronics as his main source of info.
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Same here, and definitely show up with the appropriate paper sectional for a check ride, and have that paper sectional marked and ready to use during the practical.
 
JohnAJohnson said:
I've reviewed the latest PTS and am left with a question or two. My grandson will soon start lessons. Does he need paper sectionals or can he use a tablet? I believe one should be able to do all the true and magnetic headings, but of course without the need for a plotter. And for the flight check, is there any reason why a tablet couldn't be used, with GPS (own ship's position) turned off? And if the DPE fails the tablet, could he use a backup tablet instead of a paper sectional?
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I brought paper to my check ride, we used it in the oral and flying portions, I brought my tablet also, and the DPE said, "we won't need that" Are you trying to avoid spending $8? It may be the only map he ever buys. That was the only one i've purchased.

I did show up without a paper FAR/AIM, I had that on my tablet, but I don't think I even referenced it.

my $.02
 
I get really confused in these discussions by people who write things that make it sound like a sectional isn't a sectional unless it's on something that tears. :confused2::confused2:

Here's my 2¢.

In theory, there is no difference between a paper chart and an electronic chart. Practically speaking, as DPEs themselves become more familiar with EFBs, they will be more and more acceptable as the sole charts for a checkride. I hear it's mot even that uncommon now.

But, in addition to coming across a true troglodyte as a DPE, I think there are a few things to consider that suggest paper is a good idea for the checkride (alone or as "backup"). These are the main points and they are related to each other and others.
  • Scenario-based questions and tasks involving loss of the EFB are going to be fair game (yeah, they can be asked about paper too but I haven't come across it being done). Are you ready to answer them and find that checkpoint or plan that diversion without the GPS-based assist? Or would it be easier to show your nice paper backup?
  • You need to be able to show you can use a sectional that doesn't not include electronic flight calculations, magenta lines and own ship. Yes, you can do those things just fine with an EFB but I think it's easier to do on a paper chart. I think a surface you can spread out, scrawl on, etc, makes a better platform for learning, explanations and the type of map-based questions and tasks involved in a private checkride.
Keep in mind you are being tested on a skill and knowledge set. It's less about how you plan to fly in the "real world" than about knowing you have the tools to stay out of trouble if things go south. You may find paper is just a better way to demonstrate some of those.
 
I believe the paper chart is a great tool to learn on in Ground School and to use when demonstrating skills to the DPE during the oral. But I believe the tablet is light years ahead of the paper sectional in the cockpit, even without GPS present position. I still fly with sectional hard copy printouts (from vfrmap.com or wherever) showing my route or area that I'm flying in, but have never once referenced them. Good to know they are there through.

But I'm curious... What, exactly was in my original post or my other two other posts that lead you to think I was too cheap to spend $8 on a chart? I can't see anything, so is it just a matter of you having a propensity to insult?

exncsurfer said:
I brought paper to my check ride, we used it in the oral and flying portions, I brought my tablet also, and the DPE said, "we won't need that" Are you trying to avoid spending $8? It may be the only map he ever buys. That was the only one i've purchased.

I did show up without a paper FAR/AIM, I had that on my tablet, but I don't think I even referenced it.

my $.02
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The sectional chart on the iPad looks exactly the same as a paper sectional, because it IS exactly the same. If he can understand it on the iPad, there's no difference understanding the paper one.
 
ZeroPapaGolf said:
The sectional chart on the iPad looks exactly the same as a paper sectional, because it IS exactly the same. If he can understand it on the iPad, there's no difference understanding the paper one.
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Not necessarily. It isn't exactly the same. Even without own ship, the sectional on an EFB is enhanced in many ways. Type a little overlapping and confusing? Pinch and zoom until you can read it. Checking on restricted area times or trying to figure out the floor of that busy Class B with surrounding Class C and D cutouts? Tap on it and the information will be handed to you. Need a diversion? Put your fingers on your current position and a diversion airport, and read the course and distance information. Even frequencies and other airport data will be easier to find on the enhanced chart. Just tap on it and it's all there.

It's not about the medium. It's about familiarly with workflow. There is a learning curve moving from paper to plastic. Heck, there's a pretty steep learning curve moving from one EFB to another with the same features but different look and feel. I would expect a student pilot moving to paper from an EFB to have at least the same issues.
 
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Paper charts are WAY bigger and you can lay out two or three in a row on long tables. Paper is different. Not dissing electronic charts, they work fine, even better for some things. Ask the DE what he wants you to have and use. His opinion is the one that matters.
 
My school required I use paper charts for my PPL checkride. That was a school policy not up to the DPE. The DPE was fine with an ipad, but said he would fail it at some point. The point was that we needed to be comfortable with using paper in the event something did happen with the ipad(s).
 
On my private exam, I used paper for the oral and ForeFlight for the practical. It was easier to point at a paper chart when talking to the examiner during the oral exam and it was easier to fly with the iPad. I also think that demonstrating that I could do it all on paper may have helped avoid any sudden "okay, your iPad just died" moments during the check ride.

Learn both. Both are useful.
 
If you take a checkride around here using a tablet you can plan on the tablet being failed at some point. Theoretically, I suppose you could use a second tablet as a backup but I don't know how that would turn out.

One thing to think about is that if you show up with a tablet you can dig yourself an even bigger hole than you could with a paper chart on the oral portion of the checkride. With paper the airspace and airports you need to be intimately familiar with is relatively small but if you have a tablet you have the entire US worth of airspace that the questions could possibly come from.

I prefer and recommend to my students to use paper on the checkride, not to limit possible questions but because it seems easier to me to be able to spread the chart out on a table and start talking about the flight I planned. I've had a few guys do everything electronically but most do end using a paper chart.
 
JohnAJohnson said:
I believe the paper chart is a great tool to learn on in Ground School and to use when demonstrating skills to the DPE during the oral. But I believe the tablet is light years ahead of the paper sectional in the cockpit, even without GPS present position. I still fly with sectional hard copy printouts (from vfrmap.com or wherever) showing my route or area that I'm flying in, but have never once referenced them. Good to know they are there through.

But I'm curious... What, exactly was in my original post or my other two other posts that lead you to think I was too cheap to spend $8 on a chart? I can't see anything, so is it just a matter of you having a propensity to insult?
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I didn't think I was insulting anyone, perhaps you have a propensity to read insults into posts.

The FBO where I trained had free ones that were out of date that I used during training(provide by state tourism I think) and I bought my one and only current one for my checkride.
 
ZeroPapaGolf said:
The sectional chart on the iPad looks exactly the same as a paper sectional, because it IS exactly the same. If he can understand it on the iPad, there's no difference understanding the paper one.
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It's a bit hard to draw a course line on a tablet.

That is, unless you let it do your planning FOR you, rather than using it to assist.
 
Are you trying to avoid spending $8?
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exncsurfer said:
I didn't think I was insulting anyone, perhaps you have a propensity to read insults into posts.
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Perhaps I do.

But when someone posts that they want information concerning their grandson's flight lessons, rest assured their primary motivation is safety, and a really, really, really remote possibility might be to save $8. On some other planet. Maybe.

But back on Earth, I think you simply said it without realizing that "smart ass" doesn't always come across as "smart". You got called out, and turning it back on me simply shows a lack of accountability. But I do appreciate the input otherwise.
 
Electronic is fully legal and how most people these days fly day-to-day, but most DPEs will want to see that he is prepared to handle an iPad failure (which can happen). Having a paper sectional for the area is always a good idea and they're very inexpensive.

Same with flight planning. I no longer break out the ruler, E6B and paper flight plan to plan flights-but I could if I needed to! Most DPEs understand and encourage electronic tools but want to see that you can do it manually too. Even with things like METARs and TAFs... sure I look at the ForeFlight interpreted data but given the raw text shorthand I could read that too just fine. On an exam the DPE may just show the raw printout and ask for one to read it.

Even flying IFR I no longer buy the big plate books every cycle but do print out a few pages with the approaches for my destination and alternate so I have some paper on board just in case. It's cheap insurance.

Trying to shun paper completely is not a great idea IMO.
 
JohnAJohnson said:
Perhaps I do.

But when someone posts that they want information concerning their grandson's flight lessons, rest assured their primary motivation is safety, and a really, really, really remote possibility might be to save $8. On some other planet. Maybe.

But back on Earth, I think you simply said it without realizing that "smart ass" doesn't always come across as "smart". You got called out, and turning it back on me simply shows a lack of accountability. But I do appreciate the input otherwise.
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uh, ??, ok, I guess i can't convince you that no ill will was intended. you can read a line of text in a lighthearted jovial tone or a snarky tone, i can't make you choose.
 
Call me old, but I still like paper. I always have an up-to-date sectional, local (SEA) TAC and low altitude enroute charts in my flight bag. I didn't have a tablet when I passed the IR ride in 2011 and I don't think they existed when I got my PP in 2001. That said, when my current subscription to Jeppesen runs out I am not going to renew it. Garmin Pilot on my tablet works fine and I can print out some paper approach plates for airports of interest for backup when I fly. Jeppesen is nice, but I just can't justify the continued expense for the small amount of instrument flying I do these days.
 
I suggest for the practical that you pre-fold the paper sectional to show the area you're flying in. Fumbling with the map was the hardest part of the test!
 
SoCal RV Flyer said:
I suggest for the practical that you pre-fold the paper sectional to show the area you're flying in. Fumbling with the map was the hardest part of the test!
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Well, most people might say the hardest part is something related to flying, or handling the nerves.

But you can fumble with a tablet, too. Know your interfaces.
 
JohnAJohnson said:
I've reviewed the latest PTS and am left with a question or two. My grandson will soon start lessons. Does he need paper sectionals or can he use a tablet? I believe one should be able to do all the true and magnetic headings, but of course without the need for a plotter. And for the flight check, is there any reason why a tablet couldn't be used, with GPS (own ship's position) turned off? And if the DPE fails the tablet, could he use a backup tablet instead of a paper sectional?
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Verify you've read the ACS and not the PTS, as the PTS is now no longer in use for the private pilot checkride.

1. No. He can use a tablet.
2. No, there is no reason. Encourage him to fly with the GPS turned off during training (done via the Privacy -> Location menu on the iPad).
3. Yes. I'd recommend a paper chart as a backup here.
 
An EFB is a legal replacement for paper charts and plates and you are not required to carry backup. Reference AC 91-78 Part 91 operators, VFR or IFR and states that EFBs can be used in all phases of flight in lieu of paper.

A backup data source is suggested, but is not required. The backup can be another electronic device. Example: iPad with Garmin Pilot, iPhone with Avare.
 
citizen5000 said:
A backup data source is suggested, but is not required. The backup can be another electronic device. Example: iPad with Garmin Pilot, iPhone with Avare.
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There is something important here.

Different apps are in use. That shields you from a bug introduced into one app. It happens.

It's best to use unrelated hardware, as OS bugs happen as well. There have been a couple of problems over the years that have "bricked" iOS devices. An iPad with Foreflight, and an Android with Avare, for instance (as long as it isn't a Galaxy Note 7...) would suffice. And use independent charging schedules, and keep both up to date. Do NOT use your phone as a mobile hotspot for your tablet, or you'll drain both.

Practice flying with your iPhone before you depend on it. It's not as easy as it sounds.

And by all means turn off the GPS for training.

Though, honestly, why a student pilot would want to wade through this is beyond me. Start with paper, and most of the issues go away. Then you can learn how to fly the plane, rather than a tablet.
 
I had a paper sectional pre-folded and convenient in the side pocket of my iPad kneeboard for my practical. DPE never failed my iPad cause the exact same "screen" was showing right beside it. He did, however, take my sectional and throw it in the back of the plane and asked that I reach for it while he put the aircraft in an unusual attitude for me to recover from!

As others have said, it's a great idea to have a paper backup for the checkride and it's good to be familiar enough with it to actually use it if needed both for a checkride and the real world. With that said, I ensured my auto-renew of my local sectional had been cancelled after getting my ticket!
 
AU_James said:
I had a paper sectional pre-folded and convenient in the side pocket of my iPad kneeboard for my practical. DPE never failed my iPad cause the exact same "screen" was showing right beside it. He did, however, take my sectional and throw it in the back of the plane and asked that I reach for it while he put the aircraft in an unusual attitude for me to recover from!

As others have said, it's a great idea to have a paper backup for the checkride and it's good to be familiar enough with it to actually use it if needed both for a checkride and the real world. With that said, I ensured my auto-renew of my local sectional had been cancelled after getting my ticket!
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That's a really interesting technique. It will disorient you for the unusual attitudes.

It would do as well to have you pick something up off the floor (like your iPad! A pencil seems to be a common choice).
 
MAKG1 said:
That's a really interesting technique. It will disorient you for the unusual attitudes.

It would do as well to have you pick something up off the floor (like your iPad! A pencil seems to be a common choice).
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I like all of the realistic ways to put the plane into an unusual attitude. My favorite I heard was "close your eyes and keep flying until I say to open them." Reaching in the back for a chart or to the floor for a dropped iPad or pencil are how you will actually get into an unusual attitude. Malicious copilots are much less common in the real world.

And the other lesson here is to keep what you need handy, within reason. A 50 lb kneeboard won't work well of course but if you spend 30 seconds fumbling for something to write with every time you need to copy a clearance or weather report, you are going to find yourself a passenger rather than a pilot.
 
iamtheari said:
I like all of the realistic ways to put the plane into an unusual attitude. My favorite I heard was "close your eyes and keep flying until I say to open them." Reaching in the back for a chart or to the floor for a dropped iPad or pencil are how you will actually get into an unusual attitude. Malicious copilots are much less common in the real world.

And the other lesson here is to keep what you need handy, within reason. A 50 lb kneeboard won't work well of course but if you spend 30 seconds fumbling for something to write with every time you need to copy a clearance or weather report, you are going to find yourself a passenger rather than a pilot.
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The thought of losing something to write with has always been an anxiety-producer. So now I've got a spare mechanical pencil Velcro'd to the top of my carpeted glare shield. Pens can dry out, but the pencil always seems to work.

I had one pax who kept accidentally bumping the control stick. That really bugged me...especially because he did it about twice after I told him to stop!
 
Fact is, EFB are used more by pilots than the sectional. With electronics being the common usuage the FAA has to start moving into the 21 Century. I thunk it will only be a matter of time before the cost to produce the paper charts will outweigh the demand and they will stop making them.
 
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