Seat Belt TSO tag

bnt83 said:
There are many repair stations in the USA that can reweb seatbelts for USA registered aircraft.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=aircraft+seat+belt+rewebbing

Tag worn off? That's a purely argumentative question. Millions of parts have the identification painted over, worn off, damaged, faded, destroyed etc. It was airworthy when installed, its still airworthy if:

  • Not a life limited part, which requires positive identification and tracking, or can be tracked back to the last maintenance release with times & cycles recorded and total accumulated times & cycles can be summed.
  • No Airworthiness Directive requiring similar as above.
  • Still operating and functioning properly.
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This reply answered the OP question. If the belts are still considered airworthy, he can carry on. Bell206 elaborated on it. Lack of a tag does not render them unairworthy. If that were the case, every plane would sit!

Maybe they are 6 months old and the tag got ripped off yet are virtually new. Maybe they are 6 years old and in tatters. Hard to say over the internet.
 
Tom-D said:
What is legal isn't always safe, What's safe isn't always legal.
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Tom-D said:
But who wants their aircraft maintained to the minimum standard?
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Interesting comments. And even though I believe a person's "minimum standard" is highly subjective to that person, shouldn't a minimum standard be at least safe AND legal?
 
Tom-D said:
Another slam at me for insisting my customers have their equipment in proper condition.

But I did notice you didn't answer the question.
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Missed the last sentence. I assume you are questioning me how I would determine airworthiness of a seat belt?

AC43.13-1A has nothing, but AC43.13-2B does, pages 105 and 106.

Amsafe has several documents and has been around a long time. This one would be appropriate to ensure the webbing was airworthy.

https://www.amsafe.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/Web-Fray.pdf
 
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JAWS said:
Missed the last sentence. I assume you are questioning me how I would determine airworthiness of a seat belt?

AC43.13-1A has nothing, but AC43.13-2B does, pages 105 and 106.

Amsafe has several documents and has been around a long time. This one would be appropriate to ensure the webbing was airworthy.

https://www.amsafe.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/Web-Fray.pdf
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That's rather comical, both of your links are non regulatory, kinda silly for a guy who is always advocating to follow the regulations.
And OBTW, both of your links only lead you to make a guess as to airworthiness.
 
I do advocate following regulations for sure.

And the regs say private, small aircraft needs to be inspected every year. (FAR 91.409)

An annual inspection consists of those items listed in FAR 43, Appendix D. And includes ...
"(2) Seats and safety belts—for poor condition and apparent defects."

What would constitute poor condition and apparent defects? In other words, what acceptable data do I as an inspector have available to make an a decision as to whether the aircraft seat belts are in an acceptable condition for continued service?

AC No:43.13-2B
1.PURPOSE.
This advisory circular (AC) contains methods, techniques, and practicesacceptable to the Administrator for the inspectionand alteration on non-pressurized areas of civil aircraft of 12,500 lbs gross weight or less. This AC is for use by mechanics, repair stations, and other certificated entities. This data generally pertains to minor alterations; however, the alteration data herein may be used as approved data for major alterations when the AC chapter, page, and paragraph are listed in block 8 of FAA Form 337 when the user has determined that it is:
a. Appropriate to the product being altered,
b. Directly applicable to the alteration being made, and
c. Not contrary to manufacturer’s data.

Specifically pages 105-106:

upload_2018-8-25_20-12-37.png
upload_2018-8-25_20-13-21.png

What about those aircraft that have nothing in their maintenance manuals covering this subject? The above would fill the bill in my professional opinion. But each to their own! :)
 
FWIW? If a nechanic used those regs to rationalize that my stock 1975 seatbelts were okay? I'd have two words in my reply. You're fired. Seriously, seat belts don't last forever and they're cheap and easy to replace. And for God's sake upgrade those silly diagonal shoulder straps to a Y harness. Not because some regulation says you should, but because it's smart.
 
Stewartb said:
FWIW? If a nechanic used those regs to rationalize that my stock 1975 seatbelts were okay? I'd have two words in my reply. You're fired. Seriously, seat belts don't last forever and they're cheap and easy to replace. And for God's sake upgrade those silly diagonal shoulder straps to a Y harness. Not because some regulation says you should, but because it's smart.
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What about your 2017 belts? ;)

If Mr Owner wants new belts, cool. He is more than welcome. Let's have at it - I can install new seat belts!

I can also make informed airworthiness decisions on used stuff too.

PS The only regs I quoted was FAR 91.409 and Far 43, Appendix D. Those apply to a lot of aircraft! :)
 
Stewartb said:
FWIW? If a nechanic used those regs to rationalize that my stock 1975 seatbelts were okay?
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At least when your 1975 seat belts have their tags, at least we 'd know what they are. Airworthiness would be in the eye of the beholder.
 
To keep on topic for page two...

The original post dealt with if a seatbelt tag was missing did that sole reason make the belt unairworthy.

The FAA spoke and generated the appropriate written guidance: No it does not.

Anything after that is personal opinion.
 
Stewartb said:
I believe seat restraints are required to be inspected per the restraint manufacterer’s instructions.
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If under Part 135/121 the belt OEM ICAs may come into play, otherwise for Part 91 at annual/100hr per aircraft insp program or:

Appendix D to Part 43—Scope and Detail of Items (as Applicable to the Particular Aircraft) To Be Included in Annual and 100-Hour Inspections
c) Each person performing an annual or 100-hour inspection shall inspect (where applicable) the following components of the cabin and cockpit group:
2) Seats and safety belts—for poor condition and apparent defects.
 
The TSO belt manufacturer sets the maintenance requirements. You're expected, as part of the guidance you referenced, to know what the manufacturer's requirements are.
 
Stewartb said:
The TSO belt manufacturer sets the maintenance requirements.
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A TSOA is a design/production approval process under Part 21. While providing ICA instructions is part of that process the TSO instructions have no regulatory force on the performance of maintenance. And while 65.81(b) states a mechanic must understand the OEM instructions, it's Part 43, specifically 43.13, and by extension 43.15, that regulates the performance of maintenance. 43.13 provides 3 options, OEM MMs, OEM ICAs, or other methods acceptable to the administrator which Appendix D is acceptable on itself with no other data required.
 
Tom-D said:
Defect = no identification of a TSOed item.
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Without going around the same circle, that is your opinion.

But a question. If you maintained an aircraft since new and you annually saw all the seatbelt tags, but one year one of the tags was missing... would you require your customer to get a new seatbelt due to the missing tag only?

Plus as a side note, the operator I worked for use to remove seatbelts for missing or faded tags to the tune of $1000s per year. Then when this issue came to a head in the 2000s, several air carriers made their case based on current NTSB/FAA precedent and the missing tag issue was settled by the FAA with some of the guidance present above. The local FSDO PMIs went to all the company remote maintenance bases and gave a hands on meeting in the 145 side stating that a missing or faded tag was not a standalone reason to remove a seatbelt. It is what it is.
 
Bell206 said:
Without going around the same circle, that is your opinion.

But a question. If you maintained an aircraft since new and you annually saw all the seatbelt tags, but one year one of the tags was missing... would you require your customer to get a new seatbelt due to the missing tag only?]
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Yes
 
Bell206 said:
Without going around the same circle, that is your opinion.

But a question. If you maintained an aircraft since new and you annually saw all the seatbelt tags, but one year one of the tags was missing... would you require your customer to get a new seatbelt due to the missing tag only?
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Your question is a practical impossibility, most of my customers own aircraft that are 40-50 some even 70 years old, There is one 170-A a 49 that has been in the same family since 1954, the belts are OEM, and still have their tags. They are golden, not tattered, worn or frayed, with tags, and readily identifiable.
 
Tom-D said:
Your question is a practical impossibility
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It wasn't meant to be practical. It was an exercise to see if you had a situation where the requirements of AC43-213 were met concerning a missing seatbelt tag and whether you would keep the belt in service per FAA guidance or replace it based on your personal opinion. Nothing more.
 
Bell206 said:
It wasn't meant to be practical. It was an exercise to see if you had a situation where the requirements of AC43-213 were met concerning a missing seatbelt tag and whether you would keep the belt in service per FAA guidance or replace it based on your personal opinion. Nothing more.
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The airworthiness of the whole aircraft is my personal opinion, why should the seat belt be any different ?
 
Anyone know? Thought I heard at some point legacy aircraft prior to the mid or early-70's are allowed to use automotive seat belts. Can't recall the rule at the moment or if I was thinking of something else.
 
JAWS said:
Not a slam, just an observation.

There are hundreds of parts on an aircraft that do not carry part numbers or tags and yet they remain in service. Aircraft carpet and seat coverings are but two.
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Carpet and covers are not covered by a TSO, PMA or STC.

Tom-D is correct. Seat belts, even new BAS belts, must be covered by one of the above and the tag must be present.

I installed BAS harnesses in my Cherokee 140 a few years back because none of the belts had their TSO tag. Back seats got the $50 belts.

Next annual the I/A signing off my inspection (I'm an A&P) noticed the BAS lap belts had tags but not the shoulder harnesses but since the shoulder harnesses were added as part of the STC, he was satisfied with the paperwork as proof they were good.
 
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NordicDave said:
Anyone know? Thought I heard at some point legacy aircraft prior to the mid or early-70's are allowed to use automotive seat belts. Can't recall the rule at the moment or if I was thinking of something else.
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When they are certified with any equipment installed that becomes OEM equipment,
 
Hey Tom, That part I understand. Like the window latches, door handles, starter, and a bunch of other parts that came with the plane when manufactured. I guess my question was more regarding the retrofit of seat belts. I seem to remember the FAA stating automotive seat belts could be installed as replacements for plane manufactured before some date in the mid or early 70's.
 
NordicDave said:
Hey Tom, That part I understand. Like the window latches, door handles, starter, and a bunch of other parts that came with the plane when manufactured. I guess my question was more regarding the retrofit of seat belts. I seem to remember the FAA stating automotive seat belts could be installed as replacements for plane manufactured before some date in the mid or early 70's.
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I've never heard of that, not that it isn't true.
 
Tom-D said:
Your question is a practical impossibility, most of my customers own aircraft that are 40-50 some even 70 years old, There is one 170-A a 49 that has been in the same family since 1954, the belts are OEM, and still have their tags. They are golden, not tattered, worn or frayed, with tags, and readily identifiable.
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I would not sign them off. No way they are safe if actually original
 
Tarheelpilot said:
I would not sign them off. No way they are safe if actually original
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No kidding. Especially if they are fabric on metal, versus the metal on metal, style. But whatever - his licence, his decision. Let's hope the 182 has all of it's tags in order! :)
 
Bell206 said:
How do you tell if the installed carpet or seat covers are legal or bogus?

As I mentioned, there is existing FAA guidance to assist you in making that determination. It is plainly stated, that missing or unreadable tags/markings is not a disqualifying reason for part removal or airworthiness determination.
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I hate to jump in something it seems you have explained several times, but I do not see the reference for the seat belt tags missing. How would I find the FAA standard in writing to show my AMP? He insists I need new tags to be airworthy but I have a 1966 Piper Cherokee 6 and am assuming they are just worn off...
 
I suggest my folks make plastic sleeves to protect the tags.

That avoids the whole argument.
 
First off it is not illegal to remove mattress tags if you own it. lol
https://sleepopolis.com/education/why-is-it-illegal-to-remove-a-mattress-tag/

Second I was a NHRA racer for 12 years, every 2 years we had to have our safety belts rewebbed with new SFI tags sewn on. Kind of crazy to require it every 2 years and we(the racers) have been bitching about it forever.
But then...
I had a bad wreck in a dragster at 240mph and lived because of my fresh belts and helmet. Thank God and the NHRA I guess?
The first thing NHRA officials did before the smoke even settled is cut off every SFI tag off all of my safety equipment making it all void. Helmet, belts, suit, gloves, trans blanket, supercharger restraint and other stuff I can't think about now. Talk about a kick in the azz.
Back on track, I am still using the original belts in my 1980 cessna. I really do need to replace them. My AP has never said anything about them to me.
 
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4evette said:
How would I find the FAA standard in writing to show my AMP?
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I take it this is a N reg aircraft in the US? If so, the go to reference is AC 43-213A. There are a couple other references to include an FAA LOI that support this AC. The AC also provides a means to re-mark parts if needed. However, if the belt is unserviceable then this AC provides no relief.

1693232591666.png
And....
1693232835370.png

AC 43.213
 
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