RNAV (GPS) 25, Hawkins County, TN

Discussion in 'Cleared for the Approach' started by BGF_Yankee, Dec 21, 2017.

  1. BGF_Yankee

    BGF_Yankee Line Up and Wait

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    Just wanted to discuss this approach for a moment since I will more than likely be performing it tomorrow in actual, and wanted to see if someone might tell me what I should expect to hear from ATC. I think this is a new approach for the airport as I thought it only had approaches from the opposite direction, so I'm just seeing it for the first time. Been in and out of this airport numerous times as it is close to where my wife is from.

    I will be approaching the IAF from the direction of JISRA. Might I expect to be cleared to HERTO at 4600' or maybe higher? There is terrain in the area (part of the reason I wanted to talk my way through this approach), so I'm wondering if I'd be kept higher. If I am indeed cleared to HERTO from the west, will I fly a teardrop entry to return back to HERTO after crossing it, and if so, do you think that I'd be kept at 6800' until crossing HERTO?? If so, the task load goes up with making the entry and a descent concurrently. I've also read that it may require at least one turn in the racetrack for a course reversal, so wondering if that's the method in use here.

    I've flown many an approach where you are cleared to an IAF and then turn inbound and have certainly flown them with procedure turns. GPS approaches on the whole are new to me as we've only had an IFR Approach GPS for a matter of months now. Just not done one like this myself yet. Just want to make sure that I am clear ahead of time before doing this.
     

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  2. luvflyin

    luvflyin Final Approach

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    I'm not seeing anything that would have them keeping you higher than 4600 coming in from the west. That 6800 is for folk coming in from out to the east. Depending on what angle from the West you arrive to HERTO at you may do a teardrop or parallel entry into the Holding pattern there. It would have to be a pretty steep angle for me to choose a parallel over teardrop, even if the GPS receiver said parallel. Of course you'd have to hand fly it (or use HDG mode and hand fly the auto pilot) if you've vetoed the unit.

    EDIT: misread the chart. The 6800 applies beyond 5 miles from HERTO all the way around
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2017
  3. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Wouldn't he be kept at 6800 until 5 NM from HERTO? That arc runs from 161 to 341, and he would be coming in from the west.
     
  4. Larry in TN

    Larry in TN Line Up and Wait

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    If you arrive from the west, and are cleared direct HERTO and cleared for the approach, you can descend to 6,800' when within 30nm of HERTO and 4,600' when within 5nm of HERTO. The procedure turn is required for arrivals at HERTO on tracks of 341 through 161.
     
  5. RussR

    RussR Cleared for Takeoff

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    @mscard88 and @Larry in TN are correct. This is called a "Terminal Arrival Area" and if you are cleared for the approach you can descend to whichever of the published altitudes is appropriate for your direction of arrival. Search google for "Terminal Arrival Area" and you can find more about it.

    Of course, you also might just get vectors to final, depending on Tri-City App's radar coverage, and therefore bypass the whole thing.
     
  6. luvflyin

    luvflyin Final Approach

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    Yup. I had a rectal cranial inversion when I looked at the chart. Saw the 6800 in the 'eastern' sector and had already looked at the terrain out west and jumped to conclusion and didn't look at the 'western' sector closely.
     
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  7. luvflyin

    luvflyin Final Approach

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    Yeah. My post edited
     
  8. BGF_Yankee

    BGF_Yankee Line Up and Wait

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    I've been doing some more reading on the concept, and think I have a handle on it. I also called a couple of buddies who fly heavier metal than I do to discuss it with them. It will be a learning opportunity tomorrow if this is the approach I'm cleared for for sure. Part of me hopes winds favor the RNAV (GPS) 7 instead, since my course line takes me right over the top of the IAF for it anyhow. Thank you to all for the input.
     
  9. luvflyin

    luvflyin Final Approach

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    Your welcome even though I started out lying to you. Even if the winds favor 7 ask for it anyway so you can have some fun with it and throw in a circle to land to boot. Maybe there won't be any traffic that will stop them from giving to you. Have a good flight
     
  10. BGF_Yankee

    BGF_Yankee Line Up and Wait

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    With the terrain around, I think I'll just take a straight in thank you...lol. Glad I asked though. Nothing like getting there and realizing you don't know what's going on!!
     
  11. BGF_Yankee

    BGF_Yankee Line Up and Wait

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    As a follow up to this post, I made the flight and ended up flying the GPS Rwy 7 approach. This is the second or third time I've flown this approach. New approach design, but the same thing has happened each and every time I've made the approach. I am handed off to Tri-Cities approach about 2 miles prior to blowing past the IAF. This time around, approach gave me a left hand turn to 270°, a descent to 5,000', and then cleared me for the approach when I was about 3 miles due north of the fix. Makes for an interesting time when descending through a cloud deck around terrain. Surprised he didn't have me make a right hand turn and enter the course reversal for this approach.

    I'm wondering if there is a place that I can go to file a comment, to the FAA or someone, that a handoff would be nice earlier in this evolution in order to make a more stabilized approach. Should I have just asked for a hand-off earlier or asked for some sort of procedure start prior to the hand-off? Should I look at filing an ASRS report for this? I just feel like there is improvement to be made here since this same thing has happened on multiple occasions now. You'd think I would just anticipate it, huh!?
     
  12. aterpster

    aterpster Pattern Altitude

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    First, they should correct the FAA chart. The TAA altitudes are reversed for the NoPT TAA.
     

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  13. aterpster

    aterpster Pattern Altitude

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    They issued a NOTAM 4 days ago:

    FDC 7/8622 - CHART HAWKINS COUNTY, Rogersville, TN.
    RNAV (GPS) RWY 7, ORIG...
    CORRECT PLANVIEW: CHANGE ALTITUDES AT JISRA TAA FROM BEARING 341
    DEGREES TO 161 DEGREES AT 30 NM TO 5700 FEET AND FROM BEARING 341
    DEGREES TO 161 DEGREES AT 15 NM TO 4300 FEET. ALL OTHER INFORMATION
    REMAINS THE SAME. 26 DEC 20:41 2017 UNTIL PERM. CREATED: 26 DEC 20:41 2017
     
  14. aterpster

    aterpster Pattern Altitude

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    I would telephone the TRACON and asked to speak to the Quality Assurance group and share your concerns.
     
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  15. Radar Contact

    Radar Contact Cleared for Takeoff

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    I'm a little confused on when/how you got the clearance. Were you on a 270 heading 3 miles north of JISRA descending to 5000 then cleared direct to JISRA for the approach?

    Reference your second paragraph: I would call the TRACON as suggested and talk about what happened and express your concerns. If you feel that safety was jeopardized then an ASRS would be applicable. Also, if you are approaching the IAF and don't have a clearance I'd request it from approach within 5-8 miles from the IAF. If they can clear you, that should be a friendly reminder. If they need to switch you maybe that will have them initiate the hand-off.