Right seat time in Phenom 300e??

[texasclouds]

It’s my assumption that the Phenom 300e is a single pilot certificated plane. Some of the big fractional 135 companies use them alot. They have a way to require an SIC, but is SIC time in this aircraft valuable?

Three year minimum before changing models. 7 years average to upgrade to captain, possibly 3-5 years.

I don’t see the appeal for a pilot to invest that much time in the right seat of a single pilot jet. What am I missing?

 

[TCABM]

Back in the ‘90s, you could pay for a spot in the right seat to get worthless jet time.

 

[flyingron]

I had a friend who was first officer on one of those at NetJets. It was sort of a come down because he had been a 747 captain for Evergreen. He pointed out that the gross on the Phenom is less than his emergency fuel on the 747.

 

[Larry in TN]

They have a way to require an SIC

14 CFR 61.51

(f) Logging second-in-command flight time. A person may log second-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person:

(2) Holds the appropriate category, class, and instrument rating (if an instrument rating is required for the flight) for the aircraft being flown, and more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is being conducted; or​

is SIC time in this aircraft valuable?

It is total time, turbine time, some instrument time, weather experience, some international experience, and experience in an airline-like training and operational environment.

 

[ateamer]

Don’t fractional operators have FAA-approved/required op specs that mandate two pilots regardless of the plane’s type certificate, thus making the SIC required crew?

 

[texasclouds]

14 CFR 61.51

…

​

It is total time, turbine time, some instrument time, weather experience, some international experience, and experience in an airline-like training and operational environment.

I think you nailed it. For a low timer I reckon it allows them to start climbing the ladder to bigger and better.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Don’t fractional operators have FAA-approved/required op specs that mandate two pilots regardless of the plane’s type certificate, thus making the SIC required crew?

As far as counting the time, the guidance we were given at our examiner training by the FAA is that carrying passengers IFR under Part 135 requires an SIC unless the captain and the airplane meet certain criteria. We have no way of looking at the captain or the airplane status for an individual flight, so if the 135 operation was qualified to carry passengers under IFR, the applicant can count the time.

 

[texasclouds]

So the FO gets to log SIC on 135 legs as PM, PIC on 91/135 legs he flies PF(if rated), and nothing on 91 legs he is PM?

 

[Greg Bockelman]

So the FO gets to log SIC on 135 legs as PM, PIC on 91/135 legs he flies PF(if rated), and nothing on 91 legs he is PM?

That’s true on the face of it. But bottom line is this: If that company’s OPeration SPECifications require a SIC in all operations, then it can all be logged regardless.

Devil’s in the details.

 

[MauleSkinner]

That’s true on the face of it. But bottom line is this: If that company’s OPeration SPECifications require a SIC in all operations, then it can all be logged regardless.

Devil’s in the details.

Applicants should make sure to bring a copy of the OpSpec to their ATP checkride.

 

[Zeldman]

Back in the ‘90s, you could pay for a spot in the right seat to get worthless jet time.

Even better, there were companies that would sell right seat time for C-402 and Piper Navajo...... Woo hoo..!!!

 

[Larry in TN]

Don’t fractional operators have FAA-approved/required op specs that mandate two pilots regardless of the plane’s type certificate, thus making the SIC required crew?

Generally, it's the regulations, not the OpSpecs, though the OpSpecs will repeat the requirements from the regulations.

Parts 91K, 119, 135, and 121 all have requirements for a second-in-command in particular operations (generally IFR and/or multiengine-turbine). Fractionals will generally operate until part 91k.

The twin-jets which allow for single-pilot operation will require a single-pilot type rating of the PIC. If the PIC does not have a single-pilot type rating then an SIC is required.

So the FO gets to log SIC on 135 legs as PM, PIC on 91/135 legs he flies PF(if rated), and nothing on 91 legs he is PM?

If you're planning on using the flight time for employment purposes, employers will want to know PIC time when you were the designated PIC and SIC time when you were the designated SIC. The designated SIC's sole-manipulator time is rather useless other than for meeting the experience requirements of part 61 which, at that point, would only be toward the ATP.

 

[texasclouds]

@Larry in TN

So for someone already holding an ATP this right seat time would be pretty useless? Other companies will want to see PIC capn time, not logged PIC time wiggling the stick in the right seat?

 

[Larry in TN]

So for someone already holding an ATP this right seat time would be pretty useless? Other companies will want to see PIC capn time, not logged PIC time wiggling the stick in the right seat?

Useless? No. It's good experience.

They don't care how you logged it, as long as it's 61.51 compliant, but they won't count designated SIC time as PIC, regardless of who manipulated the controls.

The need for turbine PIC time had faded significantly. All of the major airlines are hiring pilots with little, or no, turbine PIC.

 

[NJP_MAN]

@Larry in TN

So for someone already holding an ATP this right seat time would be pretty useless? Other companies will want to see PIC capn time, not logged PIC time wiggling the stick in the right seat?

Not only is it not useless I would hold you in higher regard than a pt121 regional jet SIC. Flying 135 you would get to see far more airports and gain a lot more valuable experience. In addition to that, as previously stated PIC time seems to not have the value it used to have. If your goal was to fly at the airlines someday then your total time is the number that they will be looking at.

 

[KaiGywer]

SIC in a single pilot airplane can also be done with an approved SIC PDP program if they have it in their OpSpecs.

 

[Fracpilot]

It’s my assumption that the Phenom 300e is a single pilot certificated plane. Some of the big fractional 135 companies use them alot. They have a way to require an SIC, but is SIC time in this aircraft valuable?

Three year minimum before changing models. 7 years average to upgrade to captain, possibly 3-5 years.

I don’t see the appeal for a pilot to invest that much time in the right seat of a single pilot jet. What am I missing?

You still need an SIC check out per 61.55 to be a legal SIC. I was a captain at a fractional before moving to the majors and I flew the Phenom 300.

My EMB-505 Type Rating states that I require an SIC in order to act as PIC in the EMB-505. The Phenom 300 is capable of a single pilot type. But the pilot also has to have a single pilot type rating for the Phenom 300. It will be on their EMB 505 type rating, otherwise they require an SIC.

SIC is very valuable. Ask any regional pilot FO because SIC turbine is exactly what they are logging to get turbine experience.

What’s your overall career goal and how much time do you have now? If you already have an ATP then there are a lot of jobs open to you right now.

 

[texasclouds]

I was just curious if right seat time in a single pilot capable jet was as valuable as right seat in a medium-large class jet. For a friend.

 

[Fracpilot]

I was just curious if right seat time in a single pilot capable jet was as valuable as right seat in a medium-large class jet. For a friend.

Again, what is the end goal? Airlines? Corporate? Freight? In this market, just about any turbine time is valuable. Everyone is hiring.

Depending on where “your friend” is now in their flying career, if they even want one, determines how to better answer the question. But the short and easy is any turbine fright now is valuable.

Just don’t log it as PIC if you’re not PIC typed, even as the sole manipulator. BTW, most major airlines don’t accept PIC unless you’re truly the captain/PIC. Meaning a lot of majors do not recognize PIC times as sole manipulator of the controls.

 

[MauleSkinner]

You still need an SIC check out per 61.55 to be a legal SIC.

Sounds like the OP is looking at a 135 operation, in which case 135 training and checking would be required, obviously.

Good point, though, as I did have an ATP applicant for whom we had to adjust his reported times to remove jet SIC time for which he was not qualified (as well as Part 135 SIC time for which he was not qualified.)

 

[Fracpilot]

Sounds like the OP is looking at a 135 operation, in which case 135 training and checking would be required, obviously.

Valid point and yes you’re correct. He/she may be able to get the PIC type in the 135 checkride if all of the boxes are checked and they have an examiner doing the sim checking.

 

[RussR]

I was just curious if right seat time in a single pilot capable jet was as valuable as right seat in a medium-large class jet. For a friend.

All depends on what you're trying to accomplish. Some here have stated it's not valuable for the airlines, since they only care about "signing for the plane PIC", not "stick wiggling PIC". But there's a whole lot of flying out there that isn't the airlines, and ultimately, that "rule" is just a hiring policy.

For much of the rest of the aviation world, insurance is what drives hiring requirements. If the insurance asks for "1000 PIC in type" but doesn't specify "signing for the plane PIC", then absolutely your "stick-wiggling PIC" time is valuable. And I don't believe I've ever filled out an insurance form that made any distinction. Same goes for "total time" - if they ask for 1000 hours in type, then PIC or SIC or "training" time with a CFI is all valuable.

If you're looking to meet Part 135 minimums, then look carefully at the wording there and see what times apply and which don't.

Most people would probably say that right seat time in a "medium-large class jet" is more valuable than right seat time in a "single-pilot capable jet". But if your goal is to land a job flying that "single-pilot capable jet", then obviously time in that model is probably more valuable.

Once you get past the FARs, it's all about insurance minimums and hiring preferences.

 

[KaiGywer]

"stick wiggling PIC"

I like that one. Might make a new column in my logbook