Right of Way and What to Do

Half Fast said:
Over the departure end of the runway? There's another NORDO plane departing, and even @dbahn didn't see it so it's not on his diagram.
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That would have to be a big honking 360 to get over the runway. But if it makes you feel better, do some S turns. Or throw out some flaps and slow down. Or just slow down. Or do all of the above.
 
Aircraft A thinks he is on the downwind but he is far outside the pattern. That means he is lost. Being most means he is in distress. An aircraft in distress has the right of way. Therefore, aircraft A clearly has the right of way.

Aircraft B has fallen into one of the classic blunders…

 
Brad W said:
I'm with eman....maybe.

B has the right of way
except
I suppose it could be argued that A is already in the pattern... a very wide pattern that I would argue isn't the pattern (depending on type and speed)....but could be....say at the crosswind to downwind turn....
in such case wouldn't B need to yield to planes already in the pattern>?
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Where does "in the pattern" show up in the Right of Way rules?

Until you are on FINAL , there's no priority for being in the pattern.
 
Half Fast said:
Which reg should A violate? If he yields the ROW and does a right 360 for spacing, he's violated the rule requiring turns in the pattern to be made to the left.
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I think the best option for "A" is to turn left over the field and go upwind, crosswind, and back to downwind (basically a short-cut go around to remain "in the pattern", whatever that is). My basic rule of conflict avoidance: Until you know EXACTLY what's going on, go where the other airplanes are not likely to be.
 
Has plane A made any calls that he is on a straight in final ? if he has - then he has the ROW and doesnt matter for anything else, whether B is in the pattern, lower or whatever. If A is "established" on final - he has the right of way. The regs are very clear, and while the FAA has tried to muddle this with recommendations and such - the reality is that every single case law has established that plane on final has right of way.
 
Anthem said:
Has plane A made any calls that he is on a straight in final ? if he has - then he has the ROW and doesnt matter for anything else, whether B is in the pattern, lower or whatever. If A is "established" on final - he has the right of way. The regs are very clear, and while the FAA has tried to muddle this with recommendations and such - the reality is that every single case law has established that plane on final has right of way.
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"A" is on downwind for a landing to the south, and "calls" have nothing to do with it.
 
dbahn said:
"A" is on downwind for a landing to the south, and "calls" have nothing to do with it.
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Sorry misread the diagram. But whomever is on final to the field - is whoever has right of way. Once established on final - that plane has been shown to have right of way over any others - whether that is straight in or in pattern. "calls" dont necessarily mean anything, but they have been recognized that a plane is established on final.
 
Anthem said:
Sorry misread the diagram. But whomever is on final to the field - is whoever has right of way. Once established on final - that plane has been shown to have right of way over any others - whether that is straight in or in pattern. "calls" dont necessarily mean anything, but they have been recognized that a plane is established on final.
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Neither plane is on final.
 
I don't care, truly; whether I'm "A" or "B" if I'm not talking/hearing the other guy, if I'm not sure he's aware of me, I'm gonna follow him as number two.
 
Sundancer said:
I don't care, truly; whether I'm "A" or "B" if I'm not talking/hearing the other guy, if I'm not sure he's aware of me, I'm gonna follow him as number two.
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Yep ... I ride my motorcycle the same way. I'm not gonna demand or assume the right of way. We can discuss it on the ground and if need be we can go behind the woodshed .. :D
 
Always triggers memories of a poem taught at summer camp many years ago

Here lies the body of Johnny O'Day
Who died preserving the Right of Way.
He was right, dead right, as he sailed along
But he's just as dead as if he'd been wrong
 
bflynn said:
Always triggers memories of a poem taught at summer camp many years ago

Here lies the body of Johnny O'Day
Who died preserving the Right of Way.
He was right, dead right, as he sailed along
But he's just as dead as if he'd been wrong
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That’s it in a nutshell. Speakn’ of nuts and summer camp, howza bout’….

 
IMO the ROW are a last ditch method of resolving convergence, after common sense fails. Also, a legal method of assigning blame afterwards if there is an incident.

The common sense actions of both pilots in this situation are pretty clear. Pilot A continues on downwind, watches B, and prepares to adjust speed as necessary to facilitate merge. Pilot B makes a decision on sequencing and adjusts speed and heading to arrive in front of or behind A. Just like merging onto a highway from an on-ramp. Speed up or slow down to make it work.

The problem with fixating on B having the ROW is that B has more freedom to maneuver, being outside the pattern. He can easily S turn, change heading, or turn away from the pattern to reposition. You don't want aircraft A making unexpected maneuvers on downwind like a 360 or aggressive S turns. That is a recipe for a midair with aircraft C, which you must always assume is there. The whole point of the traffic pattern is that aircraft fly in a predictable PATTERN so everyone knows where to look to see and avoid.

IMO regardless of ROW regs, the prudent action is for aircraft in the pattern to fly the pattern, and aircraft arriving to sequence their entry so as not to disrupt the flow of traffic in the pattern.

Finally, ROW does not say aircraft A must sequence behind aircraft B. It says aircraft A must pass "well clear" of B if going over, under, or in front of B. So if A is a twin and B is a cub, it is consistent with the ROW reg for A to speed up and reach the merge point ahead of B. I would argue that makes far more sense than for the twin to pull in behind the cub and hang on his props at MCA.
 
Ed Haywood said:
IMO the ROW are a last ditch method of resolving convergence, after common sense fails.
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I guess I look at it exactly opposite, i.e. ROW as a first step in resolving a conflict.

If you're cruising along at a standard cruise altitude and you see an aircraft on your right, you do what the regs say and just remain well clear, same with an aircraft on final. There's plenty of airspace up there that no two aircraft should occupy the same space at the same time. Communication helps but has pitfalls of its own and can't always be relied upon.
 
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