Retiring now

Discussion in 'Hangar Talk' started by Ryanb, Aug 27, 2019.

  1. 455 Bravo Uniform

    455 Bravo Uniform En-Route

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    Those who have retired (like you), come from a place of experience that many of us have not gotten to yet. And it is truly different for each individual (& spouse). Congrats on the retirement! Enjoy the crap out of it while you can. My hangar neighbor retired mid-50s and he’s 90 now. He has 2 Bonanzas to keep up with.
     
  2. AU_James

    AU_James Pre-takeoff checklist

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    You have to work backwards. How much do you need to live your life during retirement? For how many years will you need that money? (estimate you'll live to 85 if you're in your 50's now, 90 if you're younger... you can always spend less if you think you're going to live longer later) Is this for just you or you and a spouse?

    Say those numbers are $100K/year. Then subtract your retirement income from things like pensions, etc. For example, I'll have a military retirement income and rental house income. Now I suddenly only have to have $50K/year from my savings/IRAs, etc.

    $50K a year for, say, 30 years is only $1.5M (call this the 3.33repeating% rule). If you used the 4% rule, where that $50K would be 4% of your investments, you would come to $1.25M. So maybe go with the more conservative number (or perhaps the less conservative number if you're not going to live that long into retirement).

    Here's the not-so-hidden point to this post, though... Creating passive income streams that will be around forever or as long as you'd like them to be shrinks your big "retirement" number considerably! If you owned a few rental houses before you're 40 and they're all paid off by the time you're 70, you could have thousands of dollars a month income in addition to what you're drawing from your retirement accounts, social security, and other investments/savings therefore decreasing the amount you have to have saved up. Even bigger bonus, you can sell/give those rental houses/passive income streams to your family at any point giving you an additional boost of money during retirement or simply setting up your family for a successful retirement down the line.
     
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  3. Bell206

    Bell206 En-Route

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    When looking at it from the pre-retirement theoretical side (as most comments here are) yes this method could be summed up that way. But once you jump the fence to the post-retirement side, everything gets very practical and simple: investment income - mortgage costs = extra money. On the theoretical side, this plan "survived" the 2008/2009 market drop with acceptable loss (to me) and after some minor tweaks it was the method I used when I retired.

    Currently, my benchmark investment fund is at 15.26% YTD, 4.52% 12M, and 6.39% since retirement (5 years). My mortgage costs are fixed at 3%. Add in my investment balance is more than 4x my mortgage balance. I manage additional risk by keeping liquid assets equal to the mortgage payoff and 18-24 months of living expenses. But this plan and other things I did or accept is very subjective to my lifestyle and situation.

    What I find interesting, is most people do not know to the nickel how much they live on per year. Most will just quote what's on the pay stub. For me, once I tracked those costs over the years it was part of the reason I elected to keep my mortgage at retirement.
     
  4. Matthew

    Matthew Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Some people set an age goal, some people set a savings goal.

    I sort of did a little of both. My goal was to have $ by a certain age. As long at the $ goal is met first, I can coast until I hit that age goal. Right now it looks like I'm going to be able to coast for a little while, so life is good.

    There's a retirement planner around here that says he has to, "...have the talk" with his clients. Apparently men don't do well in retirement unless they have a plan to keep busy. I haven't quite been able to decide what I'm going to do. I've never not worked since I was about 12 and mowing lawns, I'm not sure I would know how to stop. I've started looking at the local FBO for things I might be able to do part time that won't beat me up too much, maybe that might be a way to stay busy and still get a few more chances to grab a plane once in a while.
     
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  5. Bell206

    Bell206 En-Route

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    You're never too far. If you start a plan now it will be easier later. Remember compound interest is your friend. In addition to your 401k max if you can max out a ROTH also...and... The old adage: if I pay you a penny a day and double it each day for 30 days, will you take the job? is still alive and well.
     
  6. Bell206

    Bell206 En-Route

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    That was what most retired people told me: you need to retire TO something, not FROM something. And I heeded their advice except it's doing things I never thought I would do. It's amazing when you wake one day and realize every day is Saturday.
     
  7. MooneyDriver78

    MooneyDriver78 En-Route

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    The 4% hasn’t been refuted, there are just other opinions, depending on the assumptions you make, you can make it anything you want.
    And its 4%, increased with inflation, for 30 years, withdrawals are made proportional from all investments, and you have a 60% stocks, 40% bonds.
    They back tested it to prove it works.
    Change any of the above and the number will be different;
    use Monte Carlo method instead of back testing, higher % of stocks, etc

    4% is an excellent rule of thumb.


    Tom
     
  8. kayoh190

    kayoh190 Super Moderator Management Council Member PoA Supporter

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    Unfortunately I don’t qualify for a roth, but my finance guy seems to think I’m on track otherwise.

    Even a simple question like “how much will you need per year in retirement?” is tough to think about. I have barely an idea of what I’d like to be doing in *5* years, let alone 25+. :)

    I would like to be able to walk away at 55 if that’s what I choose to do. I don’t think I actually will, but it’d be nice to have the option. I’m an ‘experiences’ rather than toys and big houses kind of guy, so that makes the income requirement a bit easier too.
     
  9. Bell206

    Bell206 En-Route

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    One thing I wish I would have started earlier was track my actual living expenses. When I did start I counted the pennies 1st then after about 6 months rounded up to whole dollars. I used Excel and would chart out the data at regular times. I did it for 10 years, but wish I had done it for 20. It keeps your overhead trends up front as you think about your 55 plan or maybe realize that you can do it at 50! I still use the same system to track post-retire expenses but not as specific.
     
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  10. FormerHangie

    FormerHangie En-Route

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    I don't see how any but the very well off could afford to retire until both they and their spouse/partner were eligible for Medicare. (US residents, obviously). Health insurance is just too expensive.
     
  11. kayoh190

    kayoh190 Super Moderator Management Council Member PoA Supporter

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    Marry almost a decade younger. ;)
     
  12. Mooney Fan

    Mooney Fan Line Up and Wait

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    To the younger demographic here. I recall the time in my early 20's some of the 'old timer's' and I would discuss the power of compound interest. They were excited for me and what the future could hold 35 years later. This was of course after the obligatory new guys speech of how you 'get ahead' around here by doing unspeakable sexual acts with management lol..
     
  13. Mooney Fan

    Mooney Fan Line Up and Wait

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    Indeed. Having a good retirement benefits package where 2/3 of your healthcare premium cost are paid by the employer is a win.
     
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  14. Matthew

    Matthew Touchdown! Greaser!

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    You guys retiring early(ish):

    Medial insurance premiums - they are...high. Getting from now until 65 is a pretty big gap, and when I multiply (65 - age) * 12 * monthly premiums I come up with a big number.

    I'm the one that carries coverage for the two of us, so keeping medical insurance between now and then is going to be the biggest expense we'll have. Are there any tricks or strategies to look at?


    edit: In the time it took me to put this post together, there were another 2 or 3 comments about this same thing.
     
  15. Bill Jennings

    Bill Jennings Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    I'm almost anal in doing this. I have a spreadsheet I created, track every bill and expense every month. The only way to know if you're making money or losing money is to track it.
     
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  16. kayoh190

    kayoh190 Super Moderator Management Council Member PoA Supporter

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    Curious - when rolling your own insurance, how high is high?
     
  17. FormerHangie

    FormerHangie En-Route

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    I suppose I should have mentioned something about those who have some sort of employer paid retirement medical plan, but I didn't think there were very many folks that have that any longer.
     
  18. FormerHangie

    FormerHangie En-Route

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    My 19 year old daughter has W-2 income for the first time this year. I told her that I would match the first $2000 she makes and put it in a Roth IRA.
     
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  19. Cluemeister

    Cluemeister Line Up and Wait

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    I'll run this option by my wife tonight. Wish me luck!
     
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  20. MIFlyer

    MIFlyer Cleared for Takeoff PoA Supporter

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    max the 401k and have it in the right funds. too many people either overthink or go into the wrong funds.

    i'm just SGOTI, 46, hope to retire by 55. I have everything in VTSMX or equivalent (doesn't try to outsmart the market, just a super cheap index fund with very low fees that follows the stock market). when I get to my last 3 years or so, I might put 20% in bonds, but I think they're a sucker bet
     
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  21. MooneyDriver78

    MooneyDriver78 En-Route

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    I thought Obamacare fixed all that?


    Tom
     
  22. Matthew

    Matthew Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I'm assuming you are asking about health insurance premiums:

    Now and then I look at the Obamacare plans available in my state. What I've seen are premiums around $1800 (+/-) per month for the two of us for plans with around $12k deductibles. I don't know how any subsidies would work, but it looks like it's possible to run up to nearly $20k to $25k per year on health insurance premiums alone.
     
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  23. Cooter

    Cooter Ejection Handle Pulled

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    What makes someone ineligible for a Roth? I thought that at least some of a 401k could be in a Roth, but I know little about it.
     
  24. AU_James

    AU_James Pre-takeoff checklist

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    This is true- but you can start with comparing to today. Will you have the same expenses or do you think they'll change? Most places you do research will tell you your living expenses decrease in retirement due to children being out of the house, no commuting to your 9-5, houses are paid off, etc. But that may not apply to you, so you may need just as much income in retirement as you have now. Maybe more, since you'll have more time to travel or buy planes.
     
  25. AU_James

    AU_James Pre-takeoff checklist

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    If you make too much money, you have a lower contribution cap.
    Also a lack of income. I don't think it would prevent you from contributing, but it would most likely prevent you from opening an account. Which could be a problem for somebody who, say, retired early and is just now trying to open an account.

    In the exact same vein, if you retire early and have no active income, good luck applying for a new credit card! Although the application may ask what your income is, you can reasonably go off of your investment income without lying on these forms in order to work around the issue.
     
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  26. GeorgeC

    GeorgeC En-Route

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    I wish I'd put more in a Roth, earlier in my career, while I still could. There was an IRA->Roth conversion path that was not subject to the income cap, but I don't know if that's still around.
     
  27. Gerhardt

    Gerhardt En-Route

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    Shoot, we'd help you celebrate. :D
     
  28. wsuffa

    wsuffa Touchdown! Greaser!

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    It's not just the insurance. There are also copays and caps. Even though I have a decent insurance plan, the insurers captive pharmacy just raised the copay on one (generic) BP drug by close to 400% in the three months since the last fill. The local hospital (big metro hospital) contracts a physicians group to man the ER.... And that group is out of network for pretty much everyone. Make an ER visit and you may be looking at $1500 or much more out of pocket (depending on your plan).

    That's part of the reason you need to plan well, especially if you're converting a large hunk of liquid assets (savings and investment) to illiquid assets (paying off a house note).
     
  29. wsuffa

    wsuffa Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Be prepared to submit a tax return, depending on lender.
     
  30. Gerhardt

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    12 years ago my wife and I had saved/invested $2M. I didn't think it was nearly enough (of course, I was 42 then). My wife's dad fell ill, no savings, no insurance and between medical bills and the subsequent assisted living facility....*poof* I say that just to point out that few things are bulletproof. Still, $2M now and I'd never see the inside of the office again.

    With that said, someone recently called me RIP (retired in place). Truly, I enjoy what I do enough that it wouldn't bother me in the least to put in another 20 years. No pressure, no stress, they pay me enough, hours are good, and unlimited PoA access.
     
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  31. FormerHangie

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    Yeah, that's pretty much a dealbreaker. That's close to what my employer and I pay for my family coverage now.
     
  32. kayoh190

    kayoh190 Super Moderator Management Council Member PoA Supporter

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    I think part of my issue is that because of my wife’s job, we’re currently in a bit of a holding pattern, which makes it difficult to imagine what our living expenses will be down the road. I couldn’t even tell you within two thousand miles where we’ll be living in 5 years, and the cost of living delta between the various options is astronomical. My wife’s future income is tied to where we’ll live, so that range is subsequently large as well. No kids but we want them - how much will *that* cost? Etc etc. Just so many variables.

    The good news is that we don’t have too many expenses and I’m able to chunk a sizable portion of my income into retirement/savings, so when we get more settled and I can plan with a bit more precision, hopefully we’ll be okay.
     
  33. Matthew

    Matthew Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Depending on how things work out, one spouse can start drawing SS early. That SS can go towards paying down those premiums for a few years.
     
  34. AU_James

    AU_James Pre-takeoff checklist

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    More and more I'm thanking myself for joining the military with plans to finish my 20 years.

    Pension. Health care (not that it's great, but it's cheap). VFWs...
     
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  35. Cooter

    Cooter Ejection Handle Pulled

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    I did about 3yr comparison between having an account manager and putting everything in index funds, but balanced for risk. I was told beforehand that managers have a hard time beating the market by more than their fees. I wish I had listened because those 3 years cost me.
     
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  36. denverpilot

    denverpilot Tied Down

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    I should have elaborated a bit but didn’t have time when I posted that. The assumption I make is that the money going toward the mortgage is mostly invested after the mortgage is paid off. That changes the ROI dramatically, or as Ramsey says, “Moves the needle” mathematically.

    If you just pay off the mortgage and then increase lifestyle with the money, yeah. You’re correct.

    It’s an opportunity cost thing.

    There’s also, as I eluded to, especially for “nesters” an ROI that isn’t measurable mathematically. The “peace of mind” thing for them that the lower rung of Maslow’s hierarchy is handled, barring a huge storm destroying the place. And even that can be mitigated relatively cheaply with homeowner’s insurance with full replacement value, if they’re really concerned about it. :)

    I wish you good luck on that. Truly. With my medical changes my chances of being able to do that are now exceedingly low. Grrr.

    I’m generally anti-debt but if someone really really must do this sort of loan I always counsel them to think hard about their specific industry and job. The chances I would ever work more than seven years at a company in tech are abysmal in real world numbers. The chances I would find another job are fairly good however.

    For anyone in an unstable job or industry, 401K loans with their forced payment upon job loss, are a really big risk, and worse when you add on the tax penalty.

    Younger folks I’ve seen use them who lost jobs then WAY too often decide that cash is tight while looking for the new job, so just let the thing pay itself off from retirement money and go ahead and withhold the taxes, and they don’t notice until tax time that they lost 40-50% of what they earned and put in there.

    It’s set up to be way too easy to be distracted by the immediate cash flow “emergency”, especially for lower salary workers, and just accept the penalty and not think about how freaking much money just got flushed.

    Some here are likely millionaires. I had an Edward Jones guy come to my door at the city house, and I doubt he was one. I think I’ll take advice from rich people, not broke people. But you do have to decide if they’re blowing smoke up your ass, either way. Ha.

    I know who I won’t take financial advice from over ANYONE on PoA. My family. Good lord. I’ve tried to help. Really I have. It doesn’t even register.

    They’re not totally gone. I have a railroad buddy who’s going to make BANK in retirement on his pension. Also know multiple double dippers who did military or civil service long enough to qualify for a pension and then took new civil service jobs to do another 20 years. They had to plan it right and be a tiny bit lucky that their specialities were in demand, and I suppose trust that the taxpayers will bail out the failing pensions. But they have a promise on paper anyway. Whether it’s made good, remains to be seen.

    I haven’t seen anyone obnoxiously bragging here. Have seen it on FIRE and other financial forums. If what you’re seeing here looks like bragging, you’d really hate those places.

    But again, see above for commentary on listening to rich people and not broke people for advice. Someone can offer information on a forum that hints they know what they’re talking about without posting their net worth. It’s helpful when figuring out who’s advice is wheat and whose is chaff.

    I always assume HERE that folks do at least basic budgeting or they wouldn’t be able to afford our silly hobby. But yeah, budget is WAY before planning. If you don’t know what the incoming numbers are and the outgoing numbers, it’s impossible to plan anything.

    Personally I’m lazier than I used to be. I used to do it all in Excel, but in recent years I’ve moved the budget tool to YNAB. It’s zero based, allows plenty of customization, and the only thing in Excel now are “what if’s” and other weird occasional analysis.

    The main benefits to YNAB when working is the automatic import of data from every account, and the mobile visibility to the budget on smartphones. This doesn’t help me as much as it makes the budget completely accessible to my wife. Simple, even GOOD user interface, always in our pockets.

    “Can we buy that?” Open phone... “Well there’s $2000 saved for that goal and that thing is $2500, so what do you want to give up or steal from?”

    Super duper easy and does that goal of good tech or getting details I don’t need to know right now, out of my head, making room to do other things like live life. Ha.

    I always joke that the real world way to get ahead is to cheat, but if you have morals, here’s the long slow boring path to wealth, even generational wealth, if you get on with it early. Investing shouldn’t be optional in your 20s, if you want to make things much easier on yourself. We invested back then but didn’t know the budget or the math and got ourselves into massive consumer debt. Utterly stupid but neither of us was ever taught finance in a simple way. We taught ourselves in our 30s. Many many mistakes. No debt and paid off home at 42 and that was accelerated by a small inheritance we’d rather not have had. Planning showed we would have done it without that by 46 or 47. Dad had retired early and was squeaking by on a tight budget until Social Security, so the inheritance wasn’t that significant in our numbers because he was essentially doing what the FIRE crowd would call LeanFIRE or maybe BaristaFIRE. He had a little part time retail job that he did barely enough hours at to buy medical insurance, which as others have mentioned, is the hardest part about any early retirement.

    Fees are lower on VTSAX and Fidelity is supposed to move you from VTSMX to it automatically once your account balance is above $10,000. Just mentioning it in case they screwed up on yours. VTSMX is usually how folks get started in that type of investment because it has a $3000 minimum, last I checked. Quick Google appears to confirm this is still the case. Just some Fidelity insider baseball for everyone reading along.

    Income level. The government won’t give you the free taxes if you make more than a certain amount.

    Thing is, the backdoor Roth “loophole” exists as well as there used to be the ability to “recharacterize” into Roths, so there’s really no real barrier to investing in a Roth if one wants to. The only serious pain in the ass for those is if you already have significant investments in taxable accounts, Roth deposits CAN trigger tax problems for people who miss that the law and the loophole say that ALL invested money is part of the tax bill.

    YMMV so a good accountant is needed if there’s already a huge chunk of money in a regular IRA.

    For most folks, if they can max whatever has a match first, Roth second, and then anything tax deferred third, they’re going to be doing great. Especially if they can afford to max all of those.

    Small business owners and self employed have all sorts of other options and weirdness. Again, good accountant is worth whatever they can find that you’re doing sub-optimally for your specific tax circumstances.

    Or as I always joke... the only guy at my airport who can afford TWO WWII warbirds, is a tax attorney. LOL.

    If you liked the job, and stuck it out, it’s really a decent deal. Stacking on a defense contractor gig with a pension or solid 401K in “retirement” from the military is also quite common. A great way to solidly retire with serious cash flow. As long as the country honors all of it. Which, we should.
     
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  37. bnt83

    bnt83 Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    When does the next generation screw up so bad they make the $ worthless? Free college and healthcare for all including illegals? We need more "gender studies" "philosophy" peace studies" degrees ya know.
     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2019
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  38. 455 Bravo Uniform

    455 Bravo Uniform En-Route

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    Sock away as much as you can as early as you can brother. I’ve demonstrated to my kids that the worst loss you can have is the loss of compounding-time (start young). I won’t belabor that fact, because those of us contributing to this thread likely all already know that. Just worth stating if not, of for other readers/lurkers.
     
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  39. Ravioli

    Ravioli Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    Six ChuTer?
     
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  40. Cooter

    Cooter Ejection Handle Pulled

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    Few people seem to take that into consideration.