Regulations: written in blood

wsuffa

wsuffa

Touchdown! Greaser!
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Bill S.
"However, unlike other pilots, balloon pilots do not have to get regular medical exams from FAA-certified examiners. They are only required to write a statement certifying that they have “no medical defect” that would limit their ability to pilot a balloon."

Holy shiiiit! That's just crazy. Especially if giving others rides.
 
timwinters said:
"However, unlike other pilots, balloon pilots do not have to get regular medical exams from FAA-certified examiners. They are only required to write a statement certifying that they have “no medical defect” that would limit their ability to pilot a balloon."

Holy shiiiit! That's just crazy. Especially if giving others rides.
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It's ironic isn't it considering the disqualifying things for a 3rd clas
 
First thing my CFI told me during the ground portion of my first lesson: "Most regulations are written in blood"
 
What does his toxicology report show?
 
172andyou said:
Good question, since he reportedly hadn't had a drink in four years and never worked drunk.
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And if that is true, a dui arrest 15 years ago is irrelevant.

ETA, I just read the article, what an absolute hit piece that, as of now, has not a damn thing to do with the accident. This is what passes for journalism today.
 
Even though they do not require medicals, they are still required to report motor vehicle actions under 14 CFR 61.15 just like airplane pilots do. Unfortunately, violations of that regulation are difficult to catch.
 
timwinters said:
"However, unlike other pilots, balloon pilots do not have to get regular medical exams from FAA-certified examiners. They are only required to write a statement certifying that they have “no medical defect” that would limit their ability to pilot a balloon."

Holy shiiiit! That's just crazy. Especially if giving others rides.
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Agreed - IMO you should be regulated no less than a commercial pilot.
 
Crappy pilot, crappy businessman, and crappy life decisions from what I read. Since they didn't say if he was intoxicated when the incident happened I think that info is kind of overstated but it does at least speak of his decision making skills.

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I will say I was surprised at seeing 4 DUIs in his history. One is a mistake, 2 might be overlooked based on how the guy handles getting help. 3 or more should be flat out disqualifying for almost anything at all without a long history of treatment and sobriety. By long history I would say 6 to 10 years at a minimum. Sounds like this guy may still have been in the air, but maybe not since he would have lost his license way back and had to find other work; he may not have ever come back to piloting.
 
Velocity173 said:
What does his toxicology report show?
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I feel like they're crucifying the guy for the wrong reasons. He may have made a thousand mistakes flying that day, but until alcohol is found in his system, I don't think his past is pertinent to the crash. Whether the FAA wants to change their protocol is a topic for another article.
 
rbridges said:
I feel like they're crucifying the guy for the wrong reasons. He may have made a thousand mistakes flying that day, but until alcohol is found in his system, I don't think his past is pertinent to the crash. Whether the FAA wants to change their protocol is a topic for another article.
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4 DUI's in his history doesn't mean that he was drunk. To me, it shows a pattern of carelessness, stupidity, and bad decision making - something I don't want my balloon pilot to have.

If he really did depart in bad visibility due to pressure to make the flight....well....the pattern continues....
 
rbridges said:
I feel like they're crucifying the guy for the wrong reasons. He may have made a thousand mistakes flying that day, but until alcohol is found in his system, I don't think his past is pertinent to the crash. Whether the FAA wants to change their protocol is a topic for another article.
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There's an old saying: "You're only as good as your last screw-up".

The way the government works is to identify a problem based on experience (e.g. "the past") and use that to set rules so it will "never happen again". Given that aviation is a highly regulated industry, and given that customers will look to the regulatory body to "protect them" (which is what we see in government today), then it would be no surprise that government seeks to regulate even more. The NTSB has, apparently, in the past recommended tighter regulation.

We may never know whether his past is directly responsible to this crash, but it does demonstrate that his judgement and decision making were, over time, not what other folks might consider acceptable for the job he was doing here.
 
wsuffa said:
What do you do?
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I wouldn't make a very good bureaucrat because my answer would be devoid of knee-jerkiness and focus only on the facts of what happened in the hours before and during the flight/crash. Not nearly two decades ago. I'd probably also ask the Congressman why he should be allowed to vote on on such and such bill when 20 years ago he did whatever.
 
EdFred said:
I wouldn't make a very good bureaucrat because my answer would be devoid of knee-jerkiness and focus only on the facts of what happened in the hours before and during the flight/crash. Not nearly two decades ago. I'd probably also ask the Congressman why he should be allowed to vote on on such and such bill when 20 years ago he did whatever.
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I couldn't find a slow clap emoji, but yeah, THIS.
 
Turningfinal said:
4 DUI's in his history doesn't mean that he was drunk. To me, it shows a pattern of carelessness, stupidity, and bad decision making - something I don't want my balloon pilot to have.

If he really did depart in bad visibility due to pressure to make the flight....well....the pattern continues....
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Depends on who's OX to gore, talk of more regulation or oversight you just may get what you want. GA is on a death spiral you want to speed that up, how about a speeding ticket in your car that shows a pattern of carelessness and stupidity and bad decision making - something I don't want any pilot to have.
 
EdFred said:
I wouldn't make a very good bureaucrat because my answer would be devoid of knee-jerkiness and focus only on the facts of what happened in the hours before and during the flight/crash. Not nearly two decades ago. I'd probably also ask the Congressman why he should be allowed to vote on on such and such bill when 20 years ago he did whatever.
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Not two decades, his third offense (for aggravated DUI) was less than 10 years ago. In 2010 his license was suspended for another 10 years (the first suspension was in 2002 for DUI).
 
rbridges said:
I feel like they're crucifying the guy for the wrong reasons. He may have made a thousand mistakes flying that day, but until alcohol is found in his system, I don't think his past is pertinent to the crash. Whether the FAA wants to change their protocol is a topic for another article.
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That's my take on it.
 
Turningfinal said:
4 DUI's in his history doesn't mean that he was drunk. To me, it shows a pattern of carelessness, stupidity, and bad decision making - something I don't want my balloon pilot to have.

If he really did depart in bad visibility due to pressure to make the flight....well....the pattern continues....
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not to derail this thread, but this is one of the things i fear about the new medical process. aviation does not need press like this. I suspect that there will be changes in the regs allowing the FAA to suspend certificates for multi DUI offenses. since they will not have a medical to suspend. I agree that multiple DUI's show a life pattern that should question ones abilities to make good decisions.

bob
 
unsafervguy said:
not to derail this thread, but this is one of the things i fear about the new medical process. aviation does not need press like this. I suspect that there will be changes in the regs allowing the FAA to suspend certificates for multi DUI offenses. since they will not have a medical to suspend. I agree that multiple DUI's show a life pattern that should question ones abilities to make good decisions.

bob
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IIRC, even the new medical regs require that you consent to driver license registry checks, which would enable what you described.

I'm all for people reforming their lives, but they do really have to reform....

Whether the press is a hatchet job or not, the background of this pilot makes it easy for them to take shots at him. Press sees their role as investigating and calling for government reforms to protect the public.
 
Is it possible for a "recovering alcoholic" to truly cut clean from the disease? Do poor decisions with alcohol abuse in the past inherently carried over into future ADM?
 
Velocity173 said:
Is it possible for a "recovering alcoholic" to truly cut clean from the disease? Do poor decisions with alcohol abuse in the past inherently carried over into future ADM?
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Not if there is a consistent pattern of reform in the decision making process after recovery begins. A solid trend line of good decisions can overcome of history of a few bad decisions. In this person's case the history seems to show that he continued to make poor decisions and error in judgement. That does not mean that any of these specific factors caused this crash, but they may have contributed to it.

If you had known all the facts we have on the table today, would you have allowed someone you love to get in the balloon with this guy?
 
Velocity173 said:
Is it possible for a "recovering alcoholic" to truly cut clean from the disease? Do poor decisions with alcohol abuse in the past inherently carried over into future ADM?
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Do dumb decisions made by teenagers eventually cease where they can become completely dependable in society?
 
wsuffa said:
IIRC, even the new medical regs require that you consent to driver license registry checks, which would enable what you described.

I'm all for people reforming their lives, but they do really have to reform....

Whether the press is a hatchet job or not, the background of this pilot makes it easy for them to take shots at him. Press sees their role as investigating and calling for government reforms to protect the public.
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yes they do, but even a third,forth,and more offender will get their drivers license back in some states. The rules have not been written yet, but when the offender gets a drivers license what ability does the FAA have to ground them, presently the medical is the only process. as it is, if they inform the FAA about it as required by law, its their medical that is reviewed and revoked, without the need for a medical, what will the FAA do. these are areas that will have to be looked at as the rules are written.

bob
 
Blindrage said:
Not if there is a consistent pattern of reform in the decision making process after recovery begins. A solid trend line of good decisions can overcome of history of a few bad decisions. In this person's case the history seems to show that he continued to make poor decisions and error in judgement. That does not mean that any of these specific factors caused this crash, but they may have contributed to it.

If you had known all the facts we have on the table today, would you have allowed someone you love to get in the balloon with this guy?
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And that's my point. First, we don't have the tox report so no idea if current substance abuse was a factor. Second, we don't know his pattern of decision making since being sober. All we know is he wrecked in balloon into some wires. To say his past relates to his accident is pure speculation. I'm hearing rumors now it might have been on fire prior to hitting the wires???

As far as letting someone fly with him based on his history? Yes, because that doesn't relate to his piloting skills. Patty Wagstaff has a DUI but I'd fly with her in a heartbeat.

Now, if I knew he's had a pattern of poor ADM with accidents to go with it? Nope, not flying with the guy.
 
Velocity173 said:
And that's my point. First, we don't have the tox report so no idea if current substance abuse was a factor. Second, we don't know his pattern of decision making since being sober. All we know is he wrecked in balloon into some wires. To say his past relates to his accident is pure speculation. I'm hearing rumors now it might have been on fire prior to hitting the wires???

As far as letting someone fly with him based on his history? Yes, because that doesn't relate to his piloting skills. Patty Wagstaff has a DUI but I'd fly with her in a heartbeat.

Now, if I knew he's had a pattern of poor ADM with accidents to go with it? Nope, not flying with the guy.
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Who do we depend on to let us know about ADM skills and evaluate that? The regulators. And they are, by necessity, bound by political pressure and CYA in developing policy. I think you might find that ADM qualities are linked to other behaviors in life....
 
Just my opinion, I could be wrong - regs are pretty much worthless for dealing with bad decisions. Probably most of us wouldn't fly under the influence, regs or not. And the ones that would fly while high, regs wouldn't deter.

Might be best to wait and see what happened. Maybe he was sober as a judge. Maybe it was material failure. There is always the chance the NTSB will get it right, since this one is high visibility. . .
 
wsuffa said:
Who do we depend on to let us know about ADM skills and evaluate that? The regulators. And they are, by necessity, bound by political pressure and CYA in developing policy. I think you might find that ADM qualities are linked to other behaviors in life....
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You can't depend on anyone in knowing someone's ADM skills. As a passenger, there's no way what you're getting into with a single pilot balloon operation.

Look at helo tours. It's regulated far more than balloons but there's no telling what you're getting. You could have a pilot who presently abuses alcohol but yet it hasn't been officially identified and hasn't reared its ugly head in the form of a DUI. You could have a pilot with a sketchy piloting background and not have a clue of the difference in loss of tail rotor thrust vs loss of tail rotor effectiveness. Could have a pilot with dangerous attitudes towards flying and looking to give your family a joy ride vs a scenic tour. Generally those individuals have been weeded out by the hiring process but you really don't know what you're getting when going on those rides.

No question that the FAA and employers use past substance abuse as a discrimator. And yes, if I had 2 applicants for one pilot position with all other factors being equal, I'm going to take the one without the multiple DUIs.

To try and correlate a person's past alcohol history with an error in ADM TODAY, is nothing more than speculation. I'd rather go by current trends in poor piloting at work vs previous alcohol abuse at home.
 
It's interesting that if balloonists had the same rules as sport pilots, his lack of driving privileges would have made it illegal for him to fly.
 
Laws don't stop crime, they just provide after-the-fact punishments that are meant to deter normal people. They generally work in deterring normal people and even slightly-off people. But some people don't care about laws for any number of reasons. One such reason is addiction. It's not an excuse or even, in my view, necessarily a mitigating factor. But it is an explanation in some cases.

So in this case his history of multiple DUIs and (driver's) license suspensions means you would be stupid to categorically rule out a priori that he had been drinking. They'll do tox if tox is doable - they usually do even without such a history. If they can't do direct tox then they will use other means to find out if the guy had likely been drinking. But yes his history of drunkenness is absolutely germaine to the investigation even if it hasn't been proven as a factor. They have to consider it.

But if regs are written in blood, there are already regs against flying a baloon or any other aircraft while drunk. And even a 1st class medical won't necessarily catch an alcoholic who sobers up for his medical. No one checks an airline pilot's BAC before flying as far as I know and occasionally drunk ones get behind the yoke. You want to tighten the system down so tight that this can't happen... you won't like what that looks like.

One question that pops up in my mind is whether the FAA was aware of his DUI suspensions? If they weren't then he didn't report them, the state didn't report them, and the FAA didn't check. He's lying by not telling them about his problem. He's also directly violating a FAR. What reg would you have designed to ensure he was caught? Automatic reporting of DUI convictions to the FAA? 99+ percent of people are not pilots nor known to the FAA anyway. Seems burdensome and costly. You want a federal database? i don't. Can the FAA check state records for pilots? They could but why would they care about a pilot who has DUIs but isn't flying or has one and has never had an violation while flying?
 
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petrolero said:
...No one checks an airline pilot's BAC before flying as far as I know and occasionally drunk ones get behind the yoke...
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My understanding is that they are subject to random testing. Whether it's blood, breath, or urine, I don't know.
 
MarcoDA40 said:
First thing my CFI told me during the ground portion of my first lesson: "Most regulations are written in blood"
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Unfortunately, with rare events, this isn't a very rational way to go around allocating enforcement resources if you want to prevent accidents and save lives.

Far better to gather data and assess relative risks. But I do understand that is unfortunately not how things get done by regulatory bureaucracies.
 
121 pilots are subject to random drug and alcohol testing they are also subject to immediate testing on suspicion of impairment. There is a database of dui
convictions already and the FAA allegedly checks medical apps against that database.
 
Meh, it's not like it's raining balloons, chit happens, doesn't seem like enough of a trend to regulate ballons a back into the Stone Age.

People need to quit crying and running like a petulant child to the government for every little thing.

It's like the folks that write to the FAA to ask "questions" STOP


The government is NOT your salvation
 
Guess I will probably need to maintain my medical to fly glider rides in the future :sigh:

Hell the Feds will probably want a second class now for that as well
 
cowman said:
Am I the only one who reads about things like this and immediately starts thinking "oh god I hope they don't make another stupid law or regulation just because of this one-off event"?
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While I might agree if it were a one-off event, it's not (the magnitude is much higher than the others, but it's not a one-off)...

http://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.recsearch/Recommendation.aspx?Rec=A-14-011

The head of the FAA has stated that he didn't believe that there was enough risk in the balloon tours industry to warrant action...
 
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