N747JB
Final Approach
If an aircraft has an expired registration, within 30 days,and it’s sold, can it be legally flown? I just realized my registration has expired, went through the FAA website and it says it will be reviewed in July 2023!! 
Registration questions
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Daleandee
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Dale Andee
"If aircraft registration has expired and a renewal certificate has not been issued, received, and placed in the aircraft, then the aircraft is without authority to operate."
https://www.faa.gov/licenses_certificates/aircraft_certification/aircraft_registry/reregistration
https://www.faa.gov/licenses_certificates/aircraft_certification/aircraft_registry/reregistration
midlifeflyer
Touchdown! Greaser!
47.31(c)(3). If there is no registration number assigned at the time application for registration is made, the second copy of the Aircraft Registration Application may not be used as temporary authority to operate the aircraft.
Basucally, it's not registered, has no registration number, and is unairworthy.
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If an aircraft has an expired registration, within 30 days,and it’s sold, can it be legally flown?
No. That's a felony punishable by prison, a fine, and potential seizure of the aircraft. Seriously. Not kidding.
49 U.S. Code § 46306 - Registration violations involving aircraft not providing air transportation | U.S. Code | US Law | LII / Legal Information Institute (cornell.edu)
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Not if the registration has already expired, as in the OP.
Perhaps I interpret that wrong, but the N number remains held for 5 years after the expiration of the registration. So yes, there is still a registration number associated with the aircraft.
midlifeflyer
Touchdown! Greaser!
Folks seem to miss that part. There's a list of things which make registrations invalid, including expiration.
midlifeflyer
Touchdown! Greaser!
The number is held for 5 years. Kind of like reserving an N-Number. But an expired registration is invalid.
2012 Mertens Interpretation
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Yes. I had a client who got himself crosswise with Homeland Security because of that mistake.
That interpretation seems to only be addressing a situation where a registration has been expired and no attempt to correct it has occurred. The sale of an aircraft and the new application for a registration certificate would seem to cure the question in that interpretation, since upon ownership transfer the old registration would be terminated anyway.
midlifeflyer
Touchdown! Greaser!
Wow! I imagine there is more to that story!
What's interesting about the letter is that the question being asked was whether a mechanic could sign off "return to service" on an inspection when the registration was invalid. A FSDO told the inquirer they could not, pointing to the article mentioned. The interpretation says yes they can - the requirements for inspections do not depend on the currency of the registration.
midlifeflyer
Touchdown! Greaser!
I guess that's your opinion. I read the regulations and the letter differently.
But I have to admit I like it. So, if my registration expires, all I have to do is create a single member LLC, transfer the airplane to "myself," and I'm good to go again.
Best suggestion I would have would call one of the title companies and see what they can do.
N747JB
Final Approach
I’m emailing a contact at a title company today! Thanks
Please. Just ground your aircraft until it's sorted!!
I had a client buy a plane out of his uncle's estate, then he flew the plane back home. On the way home, he stopped overnight (it was a long flight home), and stayed at a local hotel. He was awoken at midnight by Homeland Security and the local Sheriff's department. They had tracked his flight on radar, and when he landed, Homeland Security went out to investigate. Why, I have no idea. Homeland Security doesn't divulge their methods.
Before they woke him up, Homeland Security had called the local Sheriff to bring a drug dog. Again, why? I have no idea. They allegedly got a "hit" on the plane. So, they got a warrant to search the plane from the local judge. (I'll leave it to laywers who do criminal defense work to weigh in on the reliability of that methodology, as that isn't in my wheelhouse, or the reader to draw their own conclusions from the end result.) So, off they went, warrant in hand, back to the airport.
Now, this was an old 1950s vintage Cessna 180. His uncle had been dead for a while, and hadn't flown the plane for some time before that. So, the plane was kind of ratty on the inside. This was pretty evident in the video of the agent's search of the plane. The video shows the agent "discovering" something lodged in the carpet that appeared to me be a pebble or a crumb. Not sure what it was, as the video quality was bad. He held it in his hand and shined a flashlight on it, and declared that it looked like it was a "marijuana seed." But, after tearing the rest of the interior up, they never found anything significant. After running the tail number, they discovered that the registration was expired. They did find the log books in the plane, as well as the sales documents from that date signed by the executor of the estate. (My client had neglected to mail it in before taking off, but at Midlifeflyer notes above, that really wouldn't have mattered because the registration had previously expired.)
Undaunted by the lack of any real evidence of contraband, the agent, along with Sheriff's deputies in tow, drove to local hotel to investigate, and woke my client up from a dead sleep. Bleary eyed, he admitted that the plane was his, and he had just bought the plane the prior day from his uncle's estate, and was on his way home. They interrogated him about drugs, and drug trafficking. He denied any such claims. After finding no evidence of drugs or trafficking, (only suspicions, reasonable or not under US v. Terry standards, I don't know. ), they let him go.
BUT THEY SEIZED THE AIRCRAFT AND INITIATED CIVIL FORFEITURE PROCEDINGS under 49 U.S.C. § 46306!!!
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/49/46306
My client had to fly the rest of the way home by commercial airline, and spent the next few years fighting the civil forfeiture all while under threat that they would file felony charges against him. (And of course, storage charges for holding the plane kept racking up.)
Maybe you think this is isolated occurrence? Maybe it is. I'll let you decide. On the one hand, I received a call from another prospective client about the seizure of his aircraft for an expired registration by Homeland Security when he flew it into my state for the purpose of selling it. On the other hand, it was the exact same agent from Homeland security.
midlifeflyer
Touchdown! Greaser!
There are big issues about forfeiture abuse, often referred to as "policing for profit." Since forfeiture is civil, not criminal, no right to an appointed lawyer if you can't afford one, and battling the government pro se is not for the uninitiated or faint of heart. Other than states which have limited its use, the biggest restriction so far has been 1999's Timbs v. Arizona in which SCOTUS unanimously applied an 8th Amendment excessive fines analysis, reversing the forfeiture of a $42,000 Land Rover as being grossly disproportionate to the offense which carried a maximum fine of $10,000 for a criminal conviction.
Another option is to contact the Registration Branch in Oak City directly at the local number vs the 1-800 number. They provided workable solutions for several aircraft I was involved in with similar issues. But don't wait. After 90 days expired the reg becomes cancelled then you need to start all over which can lead to being issued a new N number.
Its my understanding when an aircraft enters the NAS with a questionable flight history it gets reviewed further. If the dots don't line up then you get a visit.
The plane had no flight history for some time. It had been sitting until it was sold. This was the very first flight since it was purchased out of the estate. This was before ADS-B was required, and the plane was not so equipped. I was told by the agent that my client was flying suspiciously. When asked to clarify, he said essentially, he didn't fly straight and level and was avoiding radar areas, and he wasn't talking to ATC. Of course, the flight was VFR. So, when you approach a cloud, the regs require you to turn or climb, and if you aren't talking to ATC, you are prohibited from entering C or B airspace. (Needless to say, the agent isn't a pilot.) They sent me the radar track, which to me, really wasn't all that remarkable. As a result, I am truly curious as to what caught their eye. I am not saying there wasn't something that caught their eye, because there must have been. But I sure didn't see anything suspicious myself.
midlifeflyer
Touchdown! Greaser!
These days, with backlogs and working at home, I've found email to the registry to be quicker for getting a response. And the responses were more educational.
midlifeflyer
Touchdown! Greaser!
Sort of. The registration has to be still be valid in January 2023. If it's expired already, it's not "existing" and not covered.
Jim Rosenow
Line Up and Wait
Yes....call OKC. We did this within the last month. The reg. expired on the R182 and we screwed up, and missed it. Looked up the number for the registration folks, and were on-line forever. When they answered, however, they were polite and helpful. No more than two weeks from the phone call to registration in hand.
Jim
PS- I should have read all the posts first. Bell206 covered it nicely!
Was given the tip to call the local number by someone at the Reg Branch during the height of covid. Said the 1-800 number goes to a different system and queue. Even had them call me back on a couple difficult issues to make sure I understand what needed to be done. But will agree emails provide a good path whether to initiate an inquiry or follow-up a call.
All the "interactions" I was involved in were pre-ADSB also. Seems no recent flight history and a dead owner with no transfer paperwork in the works is the first level to get pinged. It was implied they have access to all databases. Outside of your agent looking for a promotion, I would say the 1st two issues is what got them on DHS "radar" and they read into it from there. I do know a lot of drugs, and lately illegals, are caught in this manner from my friends in other "letter" agencies.
Lindberg
Final Approach
Donald Trump did something similar with his 757 during the campaign, IIRC.I guess that's your opinion. I read the regulations and the letter differently.
But I have to admit I like it. So, if my registration expires, all I have to do is create a single member LLC, transfer the airplane to "myself," and I'm good to go again.
ETA: Found it: https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-brie...lls-his-own-jet-to-himself-to-get-around-faa/
This was all very public, with CNN et al. publishing stories about the registration expiring, with quotes from the FAA, etc. So it was on their RADAR, and I am sure they would have said something if it was not legit.
I could see that as a reason why someone might dig deeper, but I don't see how that would cause it to get pinged. There is no ADSB, and he's not talking to ATC. So how would they even know in real time what the registration number is? Or even know to look it up to see if it had expired? The radar return doesn't show the tail number, as far as I know.
WDD
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Vintage Snazzy (so my adult children say)
So if you buy a plane, you can't fly it until it gets a new registration in the new owner's name, and that takes how long?
Essentially, any registration ends the moment you sell a plane?
Naïve question - isn't getting the registration for a plane a matter of providing proof of ownership?
Essentially, any registration ends the moment you sell a plane?
Naïve question - isn't getting the registration for a plane a matter of providing proof of ownership?
Once you transfer the plane, the old registration is no longer valid. But if the registration had been still in effect prior to the sale, you can still fly the plane for a certain limited period of time if you submit the registration application and bill of sale before flying it, as long as you keep a copy of the registration application in the aircraft during such flights. However, that is not an option if the registration was already expired at the time of the sale.
eCFR :: 14 CFR 47.31 -- Application.
Lindberg
Final Approach
Why wasn't that the case in Trump's situation?
midlifeflyer
Touchdown! Greaser!
Yes but no. As @PPC1052 said, a transfer of ownership does terminate the registration but, just like a pilot certificate the day you pass a checkride for a new certificate or registration (or for that matter, when you buy a car in many states), the FAA allows you to use a copy of the application for the new registration as a temporary for a certain period of time.
Yes, and filling in the application for registration properly and sending it in. Again just like a car.
midlifeflyer
Touchdown! Greaser!
Asking why rules don't apply to the former president is always an interesting question almost guaranteed to close down a thread
Do you have a reference? All the ones I remember involve the FAA contacting his pilot who agreed to ground the airplane until the paperwork issue was resolved.
I wouldn't necessarily assume The Hill got it right. The FAA registry public record indicates the airplane was registered to DT Endeavor I LLC in 2016 (which makes the 2019 expiration make sense). A temporary registration was issued in April 2019 (most likely the "fix") and renewed again in April 2022.
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The best we could figure out, VFR XC flights from certain areas raise one level of interest. The fact he wasn't talking to ATC may have been a 2nd level. However, we do know there were a lot more "agency" aircraft flying around in those pre-ADSB days and were used to visually check out flights of interest. From my experience with these aircraft I got the impression DHS or whoever could reach out and find any information they want in real time. The parts-run Navajo at the old day job got pinged this way even before 9/11.
To add to the above, its a matter of the correct proof of ownership which is also required to be traceable to the last registered owner of the aircraft. This chain of ownership is just as important if not more in some cases. And details matter as well with your applications and ownership documents. One slight error and it will be returned to submit another day. Here's one guidance doc I send to people with these type questions:
https://www.faa.gov/sites/faa.gov/f...rcraft_registry/register_aircraft/8050-94.pdf
Don't Mode S transponders transmit identifying information?
Lindberg
Final Approach
Check the article again; 2016 is when these events occurred. I can't imagine any reason why the FAA would have gone out of it's way to make candidate Trump's life any easier after publicizing the expiration in the first place.
WDD
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Vintage Snazzy (so my adult children say)
Sounds like for the once in a life time plane buyer, going through a title company/broker might be well worth it.
midlifeflyer
Touchdown! Greaser!
You are right about the dates. But what makes you think the FAA was the origin of the publicity? I didn't see any indication of that. Plus, there may have been legit reasons to transfer ownership to a company formed that January.
Other than articles indicating that the process was in progress, I can easily see legit reasons why the FAA would not go after someone - anyone - for what may have been an innocent albeit negligent missed renewal deadline.