Re-skin 182 flap

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182driver

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182driver
I have a 1876 Cessna 182P.
I need to either put another patch on my left flap due to a puncture wound or get new top and bottom skins for it. Does anyone have advice on a shop that could do this more efficiently than my own mechanic, who is really good but doesn't do this every day. I'm not sure I could save anything after paying for shipping costs for the flap, but I don't know where to look. I've seen salvage flaps for about $900 and that might be an option too, but it is so hard to tell what you are getting ahead of time. I don't really know how many labor hours to expect for taking off the old skins and putting on new ones, then painting.
Thanks,
John
 
How's the rest of the plane? If she's straight as a arrow otherwise I might be inclined to reskin, depending on your AP
 
You can go to Williams as Norm suggests. For sure, they're the "go to" shop for reskinning flaps and might even have one in stock that they'll simply exhange. Or...

You can buy your skins directly from McFarlane and ship them to call Stephan Schomp (334-406-7720). Have Stephan install the skins And, at the end of the day, spend almost exactly half what Williams will charge you.

He does beautiful work. Here's my thread from last year when I reskinned my flaps:

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/aviation-mx-fantasy-vs-reality.80363/#post-1726283

GlennAB1 said:
Patch it.
Click to expand...

Legally? (I don't know the answer...just asking...I had a patch on one of mine for a while and nobody failed it but I got a few comments saying "that's not really legal")
 
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Mine was covering trailing edge cracks. My 182 didn't have the stiffner. It does now.

The patch was about 1" wide and 12" long. Beautifully done but still a patch.

There's only a certain number of trailing edge cracks allowed on a 182. The exact number I don't recall.
 
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The rest of the plane looks fantastic and straight. The left flap had some patches that were put on long ago - I have no idea what happened. The plane got painted later and they did a beautiful job, but I would have re-skinned the flap then it if was me. Drawings of the patches are with the FAA paperwork that I got by ordering the CD from the FAA.

The damage this time was caused by a Knots2U flap gap seal that came loose and the bracket hit the flap on its way off. A previous owner told me that the same thing happened with the outboard right side gap seal and he re-skinned the right flap. I've already had conversations with Knots2U and we'll make sure we check out all 4 gaps seals. Apparently they've made a few changes and I'm not the only one who has had this problem. They didn't used to use tape, for example. I'd be curious to know who else has had trouble.

I know it is just cosmetic, but I've decided against adding another patch. I already put a brand new engine in and it looks like a show plane (for a 182 anyhow). I guess I'd like it closer to "everything is about perfect" before I start wearing it out and living with the results.

I read http://www.tennesseeaircraft.net/flaps-are-easy/ and emailed Tennessee Aircraft. Paul there kindly sent me the following:

We'd be happy to reskin your flap for you. However, if you must ship it out to someone, we'd recommend Airframe Components by Williams Inc. http://www.airframecomponents.com/

I'm not in the habit of sending work to other shops but in this situation its only proper. Our shop rate is $90/hr which is more than Airframe Components plus they reskin flaps much more frequently than we do so they're somewhat faster. If your plane were in our shop, we'd be price competitive due to the lack of shipping costs. If you have to ship it out anyway, might as well send it to Roy at Airframe Components.​

It sure is nice to run into that kind of person.
John
 
John,

I installed the knots2u flap gap seals last year when I reskinned the flaps. They sent the tape, no instructions on what to do with it. So I called them and asked "WTF?" They explained it to me over the phone. It was quite the Mickey Mouse system/fix. And I was told it was optional.

I just check the tightness of the screws the first flight of each month and I installed more than the minimum required number of screws. Knots2u told me that the majority of the problems were a result of people not installing the recommended number of screws.

I was not impressed with knots2u.
 
I sent pictures of the gap seal right before it came of, oscillating wildly, to Knots2U. John Bailey at Knots2U told me that he could tell from the pictures that I did not have enough screws. The picture on their web site looked exactly like what I had. I was impressed by the speed of the responses I got for Knots2U but I think their product has or had issues.
My mechanic is going to make sure the gap seals are really well attached. The tape should help a lot and more screws with Loctite won't hurt either.
 
If the trailing edges were assembled wet with some sealant or hysol adhesive they probably wouldn't crack out at the fastener holes like that.

EA9309.3NA adhesive

or PS870B or PS890B sealant
 
bnt83 said:
If the trailing edges were assembled wet with some sealant or hysol adhesive they probably wouldn't crack out at the fastener holes like that.

EA9309.3NA adhesive

or PS870B or PS890B sealant
Click to expand...

The skins flex and vibrate quite a bit when the flaps are down, and the metal fatigues at the rivets. Adhesive probably wouldn't help. McFarlane's stiffener makes a big difference. There was a company selling thicker skins, too, but I think they're gone now. Those were good.
 
McFarlane sells those skins, should be around $160 or so for the set... Any decent mechanic should be able to reskin a flap in a couple hours, it's pretty easy. I did a flap, an inboard aileron, and a pair of elevators (top skins only) in one weekend. Dead simple if they aren't all bent up.

V/r,

Dana
 
182driver said:
My mechanic is going to make sure the gap seals are really well attached. The tape should help a lot and more screws with Loctite
Click to expand...
Dan Thomas said:
The skins flex and vibrate quite a bit when the flaps are down, and the metal fatigues at the rivets. Adhesive probably wouldn't help. McFarlane's stiffener makes a big difference. There was a company selling thicker skins, too, but I think they're gone now. Those were good.
Click to expand...

Just saying it probably would improve integrity and prevent cracking. There are entire metal bulkheads bonded to the metal exterior fuselage skins with no rivets nowadays, on pressurized transport category aircraft.
 
timwinters said:
John,

I installed the knots2u flap gap seals last year when I reskinned the flaps. They sent the tape, no instructions on what to do with it. So I called them and asked "WTF?" They explained it to me over the phone. It was quite the Mickey Mouse system/fix. And I was told it was optional.

I just check the tightness of the screws the first flight of each month and I installed more than the minimum required number of screws. Knots2u told me that the majority of the problems were a result of people not installing the recommended number of screws.

I was not impressed with knots2u.
Click to expand...

When we received a set of new baffles, I noted that the instructions that came with them were simply insufficient. I asked the principal of the STC provider why that is and he explained that they inherited those poor instructions when they bought the STC. If they wanted to improve the instructions, they would have to go through the FAA and there is no way of knowing what happens once the buerocrats get involved. They can give us better instructions verbally through their tech support but they can't ship better instructions with the kit.
 
Sounds like a good excuse to me....

Making instructions more explicit requires a revised STC? I ain't buying it. And even if that's a true statement, I can't believe that they couldn't provide supplemental instructions on their website totally separate from the product.

In the case of the flap gap seals, they added the clear tape to their product without a change of STC. They're trying to say that they can change the product without revising the STC but not the instructions?

Maybe that's true but it sounds laughable.
 
Send the whole flap to Karl Anderson at Aircraft northwest, 1-360-757-1946. he is the best in the industry, the flap will come back looking better than new.
 
Tom-D said:
he is the best in the industry.
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Like you know everyone in the industry...

:rolleyes:

Do you know Williams?

Do you know Stephan Schomp?

You can say "he's really good."

You can say "he does great work."

You might even be able to say "he's the best in the Northwest."

But "the best in the industry." I don't think so.
 
Related - patches are ok on flaps but not ailerons? I looked at a 182 recently with a patch on the aileron and my IA said patches on primary flight controls were not legal, even though it had a current annual. Was he correct?
 
aggie06 said:
Related - patches are ok on flaps but not ailerons? I looked at a 182 recently with a patch on the aileron and my IA said patches on primary flight controls were not legal, even though it had a current annual. Was he correct?
Click to expand...


Balanced cable operated primary flight controls can be patched in the field using FAA approved data, usually the data can only be obtained from the OEM as a third party engineering company won't touch it on transport category jets. How would a 182 be different?
 
bnt83 said:
Balanced cable operated primary flight controls can be patched in the field using FAA approved data, usually the data can only be obtained from the OEM as a third party engineering company won't touch it on transport category jets. How would a 182 be different?
Click to expand...
Because they have a structural repair manual. Which contains the approved repairs.
 
timwinters said:
Like you know everyone in the industry...

:rolleyes:

Do you know Williams?

Do you know Stephan Schomp?

You can say "he's really good."

You can say "he does great work."

You might even be able to say "he's the best in the Northwest."

But "the best in the industry." I don't think so.
Click to expand...

Does any of the people you mentioned have PMA for wrinkle skins? Can they make them in their shops?

I can also state my opinion.
 
yes. from the definition of a major repair in part 43
(b) Major repairs—(1) Airframe major repairs. Repairs to the following parts of an airframe and repairs of the following types, involving the strengthening, reinforcing, splicing, and manufacturing of primary structural members or their replacement, when replacement is by fabrication such as riveting or welding, are airframe major repairs.
(i) Box beams.
(ii) Monocoque or semimonocoque wings or control surfaces.

bob
 
timwinters said:
Mine were returned w/ a 337. Necessary? I don't know, but provided nevertheless.
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When the part returns with a 337 attached, who is responsible for sending it to OKC? The repair facility? the owner? or the A&P returning it to service?
 
bnt83 said:
Balanced cable operated primary flight controls can be patched in the field using FAA approved data, usually the data can only be obtained from the OEM as a third party engineering company won't touch it on transport category jets. How would a 182 be different?
Click to expand...
"Transport catagory jets" is very vague. Often operators will opt to replace the flight control due to time constraints because it just makes better sense to get the aircraft returned to service. Some flight controls are metal, some are composite. Some can be balanced "on wing" some can't, some don't have to be balanced. Some can't be patched and require a flush repair.
 
Tom-D said:
When the part returns with a 337 attached, who is responsible for sending it to OKC? The repair facility? the owner? or the A&P returning it to service?
Click to expand...

When someone is being a dick on the boards, who is responsible for calling them out on it? The MC? The individual member who the dickedness is aimed at? Or anyone?

I've always wondered about that one! :cool:
 
timwinters said:
When someone is being a dick on the boards, who is responsible for calling them out on it? The MC? The individual member who the dickedness is aimed at? Or anyone?

I've always wondered about that one! :cool:
Click to expand...
When some one asks a question you can't answer, are they being a dick?

I always wondered about that too.
 
Tom-D said:
When the part returns with a 337 attached, who is responsible for sending it to OKC? The repair facility? the owner? or the A&P returning it to service?
Click to expand...
When a part returns with a 337 attached, it better have already been sent to OKC. From AC 43.9-1F:
Form 337 will be executed in duplicate with one signed copy given to the aircraft owner and one copy forwarded to the FAA within 48 hours after the airframe, aircraft engine, propeller, or appliance is installed on an aircraft and approved for return to service.
 
GlennAB1 said:
When a part returns with a 337 attached, it better have already been sent to OKC. From AC 43.9-1F:
Form 337 will be executed in duplicate with one signed copy given to the aircraft owner and one copy forwarded to the FAA within 48 hours after the airframe, aircraft engine, propeller, or appliance is installed on an aircraft and approved for return to service.
Click to expand...

If you sent out a part for repair and it was returned to you with major repair documents, who is responsible for an associated 337 that came with that part? (Hint: The outside repair facility didn't install the part on the airplane).
 
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