Question for FBO/Airport managers

[cowman]

Have you thought about making MoGas available at your airport? What are the reasons for not making it available if you didn't? If you did, how is it working out?

Curious about this as availability is my only reason for not getting the STC done on my airplane.

 

[murphey]

This was brought up a few years ago at FTG. It would mean a second tank and all the infrastructure needed to support it. When the local EAA chapter members were asked if they would use mogas, the only response was "how much will it cost?"

Not, "sure as long as the price was between X and Y". No one would commit to anything unless the price was known in advance. Needless to say there haven't been any further discussions.

 

[Kristin]

At KO69, we have too few people that would use it. Most of those are the LSA folks, and they are too used to hauling their fuel from the local gas station and wouldn't likely switch to the airport delivered auto fuel as we could never match the price as we would have to cover the costs of putting in a new tank and delivery system.

 

[poadeleted20]

I'm not an FBO or airport manager, but I've discussed this with several, and in every case the answer is financial -- insufficient return on the investment in tankage and fueling equipment. There's a lot of up-front capital cost to add mogas tankage and pumping capability, and they don't see a likelihood of sufficient sales to amortize that cost. They generally seem resistant to doing so based on promises to buy mogas, and I don't know how you'd get past that. The only airports where I've seen this happen are ones where there is a large existing based population of aircraft which have strong reasons to use only mogas (e.g., Rotax-engined LSA's), like Arlington WA.

 

[Jimmy cooper]

In days of yore, the gas supplier who won the contract would install the tank. Today there's so little gas sold at most small airports , it's not worth their trouble. The FBO certainly can't afford it as he's fighting to stay alive much less install a modern tank. He makes very little on the markup anyway. He no longer sells new pipers and or cessnas which made him a little dough. That's over with long ago. With the economy getting stronger, he's better off selling to a developer.A small airport without state or govt. Support is in deep trouble.

 

[cowman]

I know it's not going to happen but you'd think if the EPA wants to get us to stop burning leaded fuels so bad they could work with the FAA and try to get some kind of incentive for mogas pumps going.

 

[Old Fart]

I know it's not going to happen but you'd think if the EPA wants to get us to stop burning leaded fuels so bad they could work with the FAA and try to get some kind of incentive for mogas pumps going.

Don't hold your breath

The same logic was suggested for biodiesel, those pumps are still scare and only now starting to get down to numbers at the pump that are less than dinosaur based (and no where near what was originally "promised")

 

[frfly172]

There is just not enough call for mo gas,most places that sell it have had the tanks for years. With the LSAs burning auto gas with ethanol,it makes it not worthwhile for most FBOs.

 

[jesse]

The planes that buy the most gas can't use it, which is why you rarely see it.

 

[Morgan3820]

But, I see a future where the new unleaded avgas will be going for $7-8. This may provide an incentive for some to start offering it as more people will consider flying mogas. I know that I would not buy into any plane that could not be stc'd for mogas. But right now the delta is too small.

 

[JoseCuervo]

But, I see a future where the new unleaded avgas will be going for $7-8. This may provide an incentive for some to start offering it as more people will consider flying mogas. I know that I would not buy into any plane that could not be stc'd for mogas. But right now the delta is too small.

What delta changes your behavior?

$2/gal savings x 13gph means I don't mind hauling it.

 

[Morgan3820]

What delta changes your behavior?

$2/gal savings x 13gph means I don't mind hauling it.

I had a recent poll about this.

My STC costs $3K (PA-28-161), but a delta of $2 would get me going. Payback at 200 hrs.

I would also consider a certified electronic ignition for the reported lower fuel burn.

 

[\__[Ô]__/]

Anyone have a ballpark estimate of what it would cost an FBO to put in a tank and associated systems to sell auto gas?

 

[brian]]

I finally listened to a Cessna driver here or on another board. I figured if a high winger could make car gas work from 5gal gas cans, I could. Bought 3 and they have already paid for themselves ... I still fill up with 100ll when traveling.

Just not sure they can make money - even if the tank was free...

 

[Ted]

I would also consider a certified electronic ignition for the reported lower fuel burn.

This is on my to-do list once a certified option that works for me becomes available. Payback for that in the 310 is about 400 hours.

 

[Ted]

The planes that buy the most gas can't use it, which is why you rarely see it.

Bingo. That's what people on here frequently miss. One charter in the Navajo was typically 150 gallons. How long does it take to burn that in a typical Mogas burner? And we flew a lot more than most potential Mogas burners...

 

[flyingcheesehead]

If I were to run an FBO I'd certainly investigate it and do my best to support it, even if it was barely more than break-even, though instead of 80/87 "mogas" I'd just do an Ethanol-free 91-octane that would work well for both the traditional mogas crowd and the Rotax crowd.

But, one of the airports I was looking at doing this at a few years ago had a fairly significant population of Rotax-powered ultralights, so maybe that skews my perspective a bit. However, being in Wisconsin (ie on the way to OSH) I bet I could pay for that mogas tank in just a couple of Airventures.

 

[JoseCuervo]

I finally listened to a Cessna driver here or on another board. I figured if a high winger could make car gas work from 5gal gas cans, I could. Bought 3 and they have already paid for themselves ... I still fill up with 100ll when traveling.

Just not sure they can make money - even if the tank was free...

I have 6 cans, and that seems to be about the most I need. Started with 4 cans, then 5, now 6.

4 hour flights seem to cause a second gas trip.

 

[ClimbnSink]

Why compete with gas stations? Someone already in the habit of hauling their own gas isn't going to stop unless the price is darn close. Those unwilling to haul their own gas are a captive market. Works fine as is.

 

[cowman]

I had a recent poll about this.

My STC costs $3K (PA-28-161), but a delta of $2 would get me going. Payback at 200 hrs.

I would also consider a certified electronic ignition for the reported lower fuel burn.

What is the lower fuel burn? I'd be interested in that for my Archer depending on how good it is.

 

[Morgan3820]

What is the lower fuel burn? I'd be interested in that for my Archer depending on how good it is.

Electroaire claims a 10-15% reduction in fuel consumption for their tso'd electronic ignition.

 

[cowman]

Yeah, but does it really?

 

[Ted]

If I were to run an FBO I'd certainly investigate it and do my best to support it, even if it was barely more than break-even, though instead of 80/87 "mogas" I'd just do an Ethanol-free 91-octane that would work well for both the traditional mogas crowd and the Rotax crowd.

But, one of the airports I was looking at doing this at a few years ago had a fairly significant population of Rotax-powered ultralights, so maybe that skews my perspective a bit. However, being in Wisconsin (ie on the way to OSH) I bet I could pay for that mogas tank in just a couple of Airventures.

I think the issue is that most FBOs realize it's going to be a money loser for them rather than a break-even. You have to have enough locals that burn MoGas and will actually buy it from you.

 

[JoseCuervo]

Here is the answer on the cost.

$10,000

http://mankato.craigslist.org/cto/4669438548.html


Somehow, after you buy this, you have to make the $10k back in incremental MoGas sales, not from canibilizing your $6 AVGas sales.

I am sure you can make a lot of assumptions on how it would pay for itself, but, in the end, I am guessing an FBO might have better uses for $10k cash.

 

[Ted]

Here is the answer on the cost.

$10,000

http://mankato.craigslist.org/cto/4669438548.html


Somehow, after you buy this, you have to make the $10k back in incremental MoGas sales, not from canibilizing your $6 AVGas sales.

I am sure you can make a lot of assumptions on how it would pay for itself, but, in the end, I am guessing an FBO might have better uses for $10k cash.

Then what happens when the new line guy accidentally puts MoGas in the 421...

 

[cowman]

I wonder if you could do something like either have 2 pumps or one right up by the fence and sell gas to both aviation and non-aviation customers. A lot of motorcycle/boat/ATV/etc type folks as well as auto enthusiasts are always looking for ethanol free fuel.

 

[JoseCuervo]

Then what happens when the new line guy accidentally puts MoGas in the 421...

Same thing that happens each time they put the wrong fuel in any plane.

Of all the reasons not to do it, lack of operator training is not the biggest stumbling block. There are plenty of other reasons they don't do it.

 

[chemgeek]

I'm not an FBO or airport manager, but I've discussed this with several, and in every case the answer is financial -- insufficient return on the investment in tankage and fueling equipment. There's a lot of up-front capital cost to add mogas tankage and pumping capability, and they don't see a likelihood of sufficient sales to amortize that cost. They generally seem resistant to doing so based on promises to buy mogas, and I don't know how you'd get past that. The only airports where I've seen this happen are ones where there is a large existing based population of aircraft which have strong reasons to use only mogas (e.g., Rotax-engined LSA's), like Arlington WA.

Ron pretty much nailed it. We had the same discussion at our airport. On top of all else, there is liability exposure by those who tank up with mogas without the STC. And we could not sell at the same price as the local gas station because we tanker less volume and must get STC conforming gasoline. In the end, STC holders were going to buy off-field anyway, and there weren't enough users to make it viable.

 

[Graueradler]

Anyone have a ballpark estimate of what it would cost an FBO to put in a tank and associated systems to sell auto gas?

I put in a 3K gallon self serve for 100LL this spring. I don't remember exactly what it cost but on the order of $80K. Had some major help from the state or it wouldn't have happened.

 

[cowman]

I put in a 3K gallon self serve for 100LL this spring. I don't remember exactly what it cost but on the order of $80K. Had some major help from the state or it wouldn't have happened.

Holy crap... what was the bulk of the expense from if you don't mind me asking? I'm assuming something regulatory or some special safety considerations or something? I can't imagine just a big metal tank and pump costing more than $10k.

 

[ejensen]

Holy crap... what was the bulk of the expense from if you don't mind me asking? I'm assuming something regulatory or some special safety considerations or something? I can't imagine just a big metal tank and pump costing more than $10k.

You don't just roll a tank up to the airport and start pumping. Containment berms and surface sealing aren't cheap. Can't guess how many regulators you'll have to keep happy.

 

[bluerooster]

I put in a 3K gallon self serve for 100LL this spring. I don't remember exactly what it cost but on the order of $80K. Had some major help from the state or it wouldn't have happened.

Underground?

 

[bluerooster]

The Conoco guy in Ellijay hired us to install seamless concrete vaults to carry 3 10,000 gallon tanks, At all his stations, because it was way less expensive than installing new under ground systems.

 

[Morgan3820]

For under $800 one can place a 95 gallon transfer tank, DOT permitted for gasoline (not diesel) with electric pump in the back of a pickup truck or trailer. Totally legal, no jugs. Paddle your own canoe.

 

[ClimbnSink]

For under $800 one can place a 95 gallon transfer tank, DOT permitted for gasoline (not diesel) with electric pump in the back of a pickup truck or trailer. Totally legal, no jugs. Paddle your own canoe.

At that price find a couple others on the airport that want to burn mogas buy an old roadworthy pickup put the tank in and sell yourselves gas. Same as sharing an airplane. Might be sticky if you fueled someone not in on ownershi.

 

[Graueradler]

Holy crap... what was the bulk of the expense from if you don't mind me asking? I'm assuming something regulatory or some special safety considerations or something? I can't imagine just a big metal tank and pump costing more than $10k.

Concrete pad with fire code required bollards, clean-up & landscaping $10.9K
Electrical Power connections + area lighting $9.2K
SPCC Revision $750
Crane Service $285
Environmental/FAA Interface $2.5K
Misc. $300

Skid Mounted complete system $66.4K

Total: $90,451.31

Doubled walled above ground tank. No berm required.

We got compliments from the state for coming in lower than others.

I am maintaining 3 old fuel trucks, 1969 AvGas, 1978 AvGas, & 1989 Jet A. They continually have something wrong with them and are a real work load to maintain. We are opening bids this week on refurbishing one of the AvGas fuel packages. If I can get a refurbished product package on a new 1 ton truck for around $60K, I will feel that I've done OK.

 

[Morgan3820]

At that price find a couple others on the airport that want to burn mogas buy an old roadworthy pickup put the tank in and sell yourselves gas. Same as sharing an airplane. Might be sticky if you fueled someone not in on ownershi.

There almost always other options to resolve a problem it just takes a little effort. Relying on someone else to solve the problem usually gets nothing. As AVgas continues to climb in price, I will move to mogas and electronic ignition. This will give me a range of 650 nm with reserve at $30/hr. fuel burn. It will require some investment but less than a used GPS installed. Mogas is the future. If you can't fly mogas, you won't fly much.

 

[chemgeek]

I wonder if you could do something like either have 2 pumps or one right up by the fence and sell gas to both aviation and non-aviation customers. A lot of motorcycle/boat/ATV/etc type folks as well as auto enthusiasts are always looking for ethanol free fuel.

This could be impractical because aviation and auto fuel has completely different taxes attached. Some of these taxes are paid at the time of wholesale purchase.

 

[chemgeek]

I put in a 3K gallon self serve for 100LL this spring. I don't remember exactly what it cost but on the order of $80K. Had some major help from the state or it wouldn't have happened.

Yep. We are interested on putting in an above ground tank large enough to hold a whole truckload of avgas, and it's in the 90-100K range to install. This would allow us to significantly reduce or fuel prices but the ROI is not practical without some grant funding. Apart from the special tank and pumps, there is also site preparation with containment berms, etc. You can't just plop a tank above or below ground.

 

[bnt83]

Here is the answer on the cost.

$10,000

http://mankato.craigslist.org/cto/4669438548.html


Somehow, after you buy this, you have to make the $10k back in incremental MoGas sales, not from canibilizing your $6 AVGas sales.

I am sure you can make a lot of assumptions on how it would pay for itself, but, in the end, I am guessing an FBO might have better uses for $10k cash.

How many folks would spend that kind of money on a tool and not expect it to pay for itself within 5 years? I'd guess carrying Mogas would compete with 100LL sales making carrying both less profitable. What kind of insurance do they carry on refueling facilities? What's that cost?