Question about VOR approach Catalina KAVX

FlyingMonkey

FlyingMonkey

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I've been meaning to ask this question for awhile. A few months ago I flew to Catalina with an IFR clearance. (I am instrument rated for about a year now) When getting cleared for the approach (GPS B), the controller said something like "do you need me to help you get set up or can you find it on your own" or something to that effect. It was awhile ago so I don't recall exactly. I asked my CFI later and he and I went back to do a practice approach. My instructor said that even though we were flying toward the 352 SXC radial and could intercept it before RIGLI that we still had to offset, turn around and do the procedure turn. I thought, maybe that's what the controller was talking about. It seems ridiculously counter intuitive. We are approaching from the north and could easily intercept the 352 radial/172 bearing to SXC and identify the IAF RIGLI with GPS. On my previous flight that is exactly what I did- I did not do the procedure turn. All this is over water as well.

Anyone have any insight. If you are approaching from the north do you have to do the procedure turn?

Here is the approach:
https://skyvector.com/files/tpp/1703/pdf/06368VDGB.PDF
 
Unless cleared for the straight in or VTF, yes you do have to do the PT. There is an altitude difference to deal with.
 
Thanks for the replies. In the future I will definitely ask for vectors to final on this approach.
 
My take is slightly different. If he was offering vectors to final, he would have used those words.

I think he was asking what is words (as you recall them) said he was asking: can you find RIGLI? Yes, it's a DME or GPS approach, but that doesn't mean someone with only DME has the ability to navigate directly to a point in space.
 
MAFPI is a fix and the MAP, right? Why it is in parentheses?
 
Walboy said:
That might have been the controller's way of asking if you want vectors to final to avoid the procedure turn. I have flown that approach a couple of times arriving on V27 and have always been vectored "downwind" parallel to the final approach course and then turned inbound intercepting the final approach course before RIGLI.

If you receive vectors for final, you do not have to fly the procedure turn.

If I were arriving from the north as you did, I would just ask the controller if he wants me to fly the procedure turn if you intercept before RIGLI, chances are ATC would waive that requirement to expedite traff flow.
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I too don't understand why it's necessary to fly the procedure turn when arriving from the north.

Arriving on V27 is different. That arrival is from the southeast, so it is necessary to get turned around in order to land on runway 22. From the north though, it's a clean straight in arrival.
 
Lon33 said:
I too don't understand why it's necessary to fly the procedure turn when arriving from the north.

Arriving on V27 is different. That arrival is from the southeast, so it is necessary to get turned around in order to land on runway 22. From the north though, it's a clean straight in arrival.
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The procedure design appears to be predicated on the use of published routes, all of which require passing over the VOR to get to the IAF. I believe the FAA's solutions for arriving on a nonpublished route are either vectors to final, or a terminal arrival area (TAA) for RNAV-eqipped aircraft, but somewhere I think I saw a post that said SoCal TRACON has vetoed the publishing of TAAs in their area.

"The objective of the Terminal Arrival Area (TAA) is to provide a new transition
method for arriving aircraft equipped with FMS and/or GPS navigational
equipment. The TAA contains within it a “T” structure that normally provides a
NoPT for aircraft using the approach. The TAA provides the pilot and air traffic
controller with an efficient method for routing traffic from enroute to terminal
structures."
​
http://www.jeppesen.com/download/briefbull/den00-a
 
Lon33 said:
I too don't understand why it's necessary to fly the procedure turn when arriving from the north.

Arriving on V27 is different. That arrival is from the southeast, so it is necessary to get turned around in order to land on runway 22. From the north though, it's a clean straight in arrival.
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All of the airways have MEAs of 4000, so you will have no way to lose altitude, in the absence of vectors.

What ATC could do is define a transition from HERMO with NoPT, but that's not on the chart, and 51 miles is a bit long for a transition.

Basically, it's a VOR/DME approach. How do you get to RIGLY using only VOR and DME?
 
MAKG1 said:
...Basically, it's a VOR/DME approach. How do you get to RIGLY using only VOR and DME?
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The chart says you fly outbound from the VOR on the 352 degree radial at or above 3400.
 
OK. Good. I see it now. Thanks Palmpilot and Makg1.
(I also now see that V27 is a route from the northwest as well as from the southeast.)
 
You are required to do the PT and the controller is not supposed to clear an aircraft direct to a FAF which is also an IAF unless you perform the PT. Here is what the controller manual says when the IAF and the FAF are the same fix:

"Except for visual approaches, do not clear an aircraft direct to the FAF unless it is also an IAF, wherein the aircraft is expected to execute the depicted procedure turn or hold-in-lieu of procedure turn."​

If the PT or HILPT is depicted on the chart then it is mandatory that the PT be flown. There are four exceptions:
  1. You are vectored to final
  2. The controller clears you straight in
  3. The route or segment (TAA) is noted as NoPt
  4. Timed approaches from a hold are being conducted
In the OP, none of these exceptions applied and number 2 is not permitted in this case.
​
 
MAKG1 said:
All of the airways have MEAs of 4000, so you will have no way to lose altitude, in the absence of vectors.

What ATC could do is define a transition from HERMO with NoPT, but that's not on the chart, and 51 miles is a bit long for a transition.

Basically, it's a VOR/DME approach. How do you get to RIGLY using only VOR and DME?
Click to expand...

Curious question from a VFR-only pilot trying to learn something.

If you request an IFR clearance to Catalina (KAVX), will ATC only clear you to fly there on one of the airways that leads to SXC VOR, even if you have GPS?
 
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register@teamandras.com said:
Curious question from a VFR-only pilot trying to learn something.

If you request an IFR clearance to Catalina (KAVX), will ATC only clear you to fly there on one of the airways that leads to SXC VOR, even if you have GPS?
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In general, yes. SXC VOR is a VERY heavy traffic point. Almost all transpacific traffic from LA goes through there, some of it at low altitude (e.g. departing LGB) That's managed with standardized routes.
 
register@teamandras.com said:
Curious question from a VFR-only pilot trying to learn something.

If you request an IFR clearance to Catalina (KAVX), will ATC only clear you to fly there on one of the airways that leads to SXC VOR, even if you have GPS?
Click to expand...

HEY get in line for hijacking!
 
register@teamandras.com said:
Ohhh. My bad. Beer is owed.
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I like beer!

[7500] so if it's my turn, my question is VFR from VNY to AVX via southbound mini route. seems like it'll be VNY => SMO VOR => VPLSR. will they typically cut me lose at VPLSR direct to AVX? thanks! [/7500]
 
eman1200 said:
I like beer!

[7500] so if it's my turn, my question is VFR from VNY to AVX via southbound mini route. seems like it'll be VNY => SMO VOR => VPLSR. will they typically cut me lose at VPLSR direct to AVX? thanks! [/7500]
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I've only flown it north bound so don't know what may be typical southbound. Question tho, why the Mini Route? For the novelty?
 
You're VFR. Once off the Mini route (near Hawthorne), your routing is whatever you want, as long as you stay below Class B.

If it were me, I'd use one of the other routes for the higher altitude, though.
 
luvflyin said:
I've only flown it north bound so don't know what may be typical southbound. Question tho, why the Mini Route? For the novelty?
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Mostly. But what are you suggesting, just avoid the entire bravo by heading southwestish to around point dume?
 
eman1200 said:
I like beer!

[7500] so if it's my turn, my question is VFR from VNY to AVX via southbound mini route. seems like it'll be VNY => SMO VOR => VPLSR. will they typically cut me lose at VPLSR direct to AVX? thanks! [/7500]
Click to expand...

I haven't specifically flown the mini route south to AVX, but I have flown it southbound a couple of times. In my very limited experience, LAX will terminate radar services and tell you to contact Hawthorne when you get south of the bravo, and Hawthorne will gladly set you up for continued flight following after exiting their airspace, or not, as desired by you.
 
You could also ask SoCal for the Coastal Route which requires you reach 5500 to enter the route north of the bravo, fly to LAX VOR on R-323 and away from LAX VOR on R-123.

You'd have more altitude that way by the time you hit the Long Beach area and started to cross the channel.
 
eman1200 said:
Mostly. But what are you suggesting, just avoid the entire bravo by heading southwestish to around point dume?
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Nah. If your looking for the shortest over water time you want to go over Point Fermin. Straight ahead off 16 or downwind off 34 then call and ask for the Coastal Route. If they don't wanna to play, then the Special Flight Rules Area over LAX. If ya get the Coastal Route tell em what yer doin and they might be able to work you up a little higher. If ya do the SFRA you might be able to call em up on the south side and get some help getting up. Of course you can get snarled at to. I'm assuming your going to be renting out of VNY. They'll know what's best.
 
luvflyin said:
Nah. If your looking for the shortest over water time you want to go over Point Fermin. Straight ahead off 16 or downwind off 34 then call and ask for the Coastal Route. If they don't wanna to play, then the Special Flight Rules Area over LAX. If ya get the Coastal Route tell em what yer doin and they might be able to work you up a little higher. If ya do the SFRA you might be able to call em up on the south side and get some help getting up. Of course you can get snarled at to. I'm assuming your going to be renting out of VNY. They'll know what's best.
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It's a pretty short flight to begin with, I'm not sure any route saves a 'considerable' amount of time. When I called the place at VNY they said they typically do the coastal or mini so I just started looking into them. I figure a transition over lax would be pretty sweet and I'm prepared to be somewhat busy on the radio. Just wanna be as prepared as I can be, although I expect any cfi that comes with me to earn his keep.
 
eman1200 said:
It's a pretty short flight to begin with, I'm not sure any route saves a 'considerable' amount of time. When I called the place at VNY they said they typically do the coastal or mini so I just started looking into them. I figure a transition over lax would be pretty sweet and I'm prepared to be somewhat busy on the radio. Just wanna be as prepared as I can be, although I expect any cfi that comes with me to earn his keep.
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Ah. If you got a CFI doin the trip with you, problem solved. If ya wanna stay low and get the close view of LAX then do it. It's kinda cool, something for the ol' scrapbook. It kind of surprises me that they gave you the suggestion of either the Coastal or the Mini and left out the SFRA in between which is the easiest communications wise.
 
MAKG1 said:
In general, yes. SXC VOR is a VERY heavy traffic point. Almost all transpacific traffic from LA goes through there, some of it at low altitude (e.g. departing LGB) That's managed with standardized routes.
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STAR into KCRQ also uses SXC. There isn't much international traffic in or out of Long Beach. The standard Trans-Pacific departures out of LAX use the Ventura SID. The only Pacific flying I did was from LAX to Honolulu. We always entered oceanic at DINTY. Coming back there were two possibilities, one used when they were getting ready to fire a missile at Vandenberg. (Late night flight) Both of those routes would bring us in over SXC but always above 10,000. You're correct, lots of traffic over SXC, but I think none of it would interfere with the approaches on the island.
 
John Collins said:
the controller is not supposed to clear an aircraft direct to a FAF which is also an IAF unless you perform the PT.
​
Click to expand...


Maybe this is a stupid question, but does the above sentence mean that they are not supposed to give you vectors to join the final approach course and clear you to fly the approach straight in? Seems to me that giving vectors to final approach course is not inconsistent with the prohibition against clearing direct to the FAF where it is also the IAF.
 
PPC1052 said:
Maybe this is a stupid question, but does the above sentence mean that they are not supposed to give you vectors to join the final approach course and clear you to fly the approach straight in? Seems to me that giving vectors to final approach course is not inconsistent with the prohibition of clearing direct to the FAF.
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If I remember rightly, they're supposed to vector you to the final approach course at least a specified distance outside the FAF. Two miles?
 
Palmpilot said:
If I remember rightly, they're supposed to vector you to the final approach course at least a specified distance outside the FAF. Two miles?
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This may have changed, I'll look it up later. It's the approach gate which is mostly 1 mile outside the FAF. It's 2 miles outside the gate unless the weather is good then it's the gate. With pilot concurrence you can go right up to the FAF

Edit: The Approach Gate is one mile outside the FAF but no closer than 5 miles from the Runway threshold. Aircraft must be vectored to join final at least 2 miles outside the gate unless the ceiling is at least 500 feet above the MVA/MIA and the visibility is at least 3 miles. Then aircraft can be vectored to join final up to the Approach Gate. If the pilot specifically requests it, the aircraft can be vectored to join at the FAF. None of this applies to RNAV Approaches. There doesn't seem to be any provision to vector aircraft to join a segement between Waypoints.
 
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PPC1052 said:
Maybe this is a stupid question, but does the above sentence mean that they are not supposed to give you vectors to join the final approach course and clear you to fly the approach straight in? Seems to me that giving vectors to final approach course is not inconsistent with the prohibition against clearing direct to the FAF where it is also the IAF.
Click to expand...

A vector to join the final approach course prior to the FAF is NOT the same as being cleared direct to the FAF.
 
Procedure turn or no procedure turn... the lifelong question.

As long as you and ATC agree on which it will be, all is well. Just make intentions known. If they want otherwise they'll let you know.
 
register@teamandras.com said:
Pretending you're talking to a slow VFR pilot, what's the difference? Thanks!
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Sure, no problem. A clearance "direct" to the FAF would be a clearance to go from wherever you are now, straight to the FAF. Meaning, in a straight line from your present position, quite possibly arriving at the FAF with the nose pointed well away from the runway (like, you're coming in from the side).

Vectors to the FAF means that ATC will provide you with headings so that you are lined up on the final approach course a few miles prior to the FAF, already pointing the right way and ready to begin your descent.

The big difference is that with "direct", you may arrive at the FAF having to make a big turn to line up on final. With vectors to the FAF, you arrive at the FAF already lined up on final and usually do not have to turn at all once you get to the FAF.
 
RussR said:
Sure, no problem. A clearance "direct" to the FAF would be a clearance to go from wherever you are now, straight to the FAF. Meaning, in a straight line from your present position, quite possibly arriving at the FAF with the nose pointed well away from the runway (like, you're coming in from the side).

Vectors to the FAF means that ATC will provide you with headings so that you are lined up on the final approach course a few miles prior to the FAF, already pointing the right way and ready to begin your descent.

The big difference is that with "direct", you may arrive at the FAF having to make a big turn to line up on final. With vectors to the FAF, you arrive at the FAF already lined up on final and usually do not have to turn at all once you get to the FAF.
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Thanks!
 
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