Prop Strike Inspection with "reasonable" turnaround

[vontresc]

It is always "fun" being the flying club maintenance officer. Today while on vacation in CA, I get a call from a club member who managed to prop strike the R182. It is bad enough to require a teardown as the tips got a nice bend to them.

So the million dollar question comes down to if there are ANY enginr repair places that don't have a 4 month turn that are reputable? Any hints would be greatly appreciated, as right now we are down to one of our 3 planes being flyable...

Peter

 

[schmookeeg]

I feel like quick turn favors the larger shops. Have you called Skyways, RAM, etc?

 

[Steamflyer]

Pretty much any prop strike on a Lycoming will require a tear down per their bulletin. Assuming by R182 you mean the retract version.

You’d be blessed to be done in four months must say - that assumes crank passes or shop can source one with an 8130.

Nose wheel landing solo or two up?

 

[RyanShort1]

Your key word is reputable - and that is, of course, a matter of interpretation. You might be able to find some local shop that is willing to take and engine apart and put it back together, but that would mean you'd want to find someone with a sterling local reputation. We're in the middle of replacing an engine that came from a very "reputable" shop, where a stud bolt for a cylinder started coming loose about 1300 hours into the engine's service life, so we aren't getting anywhere close to TBO before doing some major work on it, and we're finding that same 3-4 month turnaround. I've also had an engine worked on by a local guy in the past that turned out fine and ran past TBO... so it's really a matter of what you're comfortable with.

 

[Steamflyer]

Studding issues may not originate with engine assembler (which is what overhaul shops generally are - the inspections and certs are done outside for those parts not new).

 

[Bell206]

It is bad enough to require a teardown as the tips got a nice bend to them.

FWIW: It only requires a complete teardown if you are required to follow SB533. However, if your main requirement is only related to the prop strike AD via SB475, then it does not require a complete teardown.

 

[Steamflyer]

FWIW: It only requires a complete teardown if you are required to follow SB533. However, if your main requirement is only related to the prop strike AD via SB475, then it does not require a complete teardown.

True. Still with well bent prop tips I’d want to look at the crank fillets.

 

[Magman]

Prop Strikes and Sudden Stoppages have been the subject of varying

inspection requirements for many years. IMHO the biggest difference today

is that most insurance companies will cover a Teardown. Some of these

Requirements are not retroactive. I met a Lycoming that had a prop strike

prior to AD 91-14-22 ( Crank Gear ) issuance. My belief is the final word on

AD compliance is with the FAA Office that handles the AD. I contacted them

and they said it was not required. I don’t recall if the Accessory Case was

pulled to comply anyway.


There are engines having entries for dialing the Crank as the strike inspection

and no other info. Does this mean that Techs signing off inspections after

this are also accepting the entry as valid re the strike?


I always tell owners to have the Prop Shop put a “ No Prop Strike” entry

when prop work is done.

 

[bonefishpete]

Did pilot wheel barrow the nose gear? Check the fire wall for damage.

 

[Magman]

The Mount takes a hit as well.

There will never be a better time to send than right now.

 

[schmookeeg]

also the left seat upholstery.

 

[vontresc]

Yeah worst part is that I am on Vacation, so I am relying on having others looking at the plane. From what I got out of the flustered pilot it sounded like a probabble porpoise. I am worried about the firewall as well.

 

[Bell206]

Prop Strikes and Sudden Stoppages have been the subject of varying inspection requirements for many years.

Except now, for Lycoming its pretty straight forward with AD 2004-10-14 (superseded 91-14-22) and its associated SB 475. Plus depending on the operation type, SB 533 may come into play which is Lycoming's actual bulletin on prop strike recommendations. TCM has no AD that I'm aware of, but did have a bulletin, which is now included in the TCM M-0 Standard Practice Manual. Regardless, all these references pretty much define what must be done as applicable to the circumstances.

 

[Magman]

To me it’s still somewhat variable.

SB 475 and AD 91-14+22 and superseding AD 2004-10-14 are inspections of the Crankshaft Gear and can often be done without engine removal
SB 533 is quite comprehensive but it’s not an AD. I’ve fought with insurance
people that did not want to cover accessory case removal even though stipulated via AD for a hangar door damaging the prop.

Just like a parachute; you never know how good or bad coverage is until
you need it!

 

[Tarheelpilot]

Yeah worst part is that I am on Vacation, so I am relying on having others looking at the plane. From what I got out of the flustered pilot it sounded like a probabble porpoise. I am worried about the firewall as well.

If they managed to hit the prop in that context I’ll be very surprised if the firewall is not damaged.

 

[Cesarmx]

Locally a couple of years back two experienced IAs argued about if an O360 needed a tear down or only gear inspection and pin replacement -without removing engine- after a gear up landing! They could not agree as to the interpretation/applicability of the AD/SB and the pilot owner was in the middle without a clue as to whom to believe; The insurance will not pay for a complete tear down either!

 

[Steamflyer]

Locally a couple of years back two experienced IAs argued about if an O360 needed a tear down or only gear inspection and pin replacement -without removing engine- after a gear up landing! They could not agree as to the interpretation/applicability of the AD/SB and the pilot owner was in the middle without a clue as to whom to believe; The insurance will not pay for a complete tear down either!

If the OPs aircraft was porpoised to the point of hitting the prop, I don't see how a tear down can be avoided, along with possibly rebuilding whatever else got bent along the way. A three bladed prop weighs around 80# - decelerating that much mass quickly just isn't very kind to any of the attached parts. There are many reports of engines soldiering on for pretty much forever after a prop strike, and others where some hundreds of hours later the crank fractured.

Gentle deceleration to a proper touchdown speed while increasing pitch is the only way to prevent this IMHO, particularly with the 182 and 206 which may be near their forward c.g. limits when flown one or two up. Restarts I think have a placard warning of this.

 

[bonefishpete]

Really need pictures of the prop.
Scratched or more of a ‘Q Tip’?

 

[Half Fast]

Scratched or more of a ‘Q Tip’?

From post #1:

the tips got a nice bend to them.

 

[Lindberg]

Gentle deceleration to a proper touchdown speed while increasing pitch is the only way to prevent this IMHO, particularly with the 182 and 206 which may be near their forward c.g. limits when flown one or two up. Restarts I think have a placard warning of this.

They have a placard telling pilots to flare on landing?

 

[Bell206]

To me it’s still somewhat variable.

I guess I don't follow what variance you are pointing at. If its a Lycoming, you have the AD. Beyond the AD, you and the owner have the sole decision to follow the additional Lycoming/TCM recommendations or not. And any work you sign off must meet the performance requirements of Part 43.13 regardless whether the insurance company pays for it or not.

 

[vontresc]

Well upon further review...got some more pics. It looks like only one blade really got whacked (which I find fascnating). Talked to the pilot, and he claimed it just hit hard. Still gonna require a teardown, but how does one only hit the one blade?

Also As per recent experience of a plane in a collapsed hangar (i've had all the fun this year) the insurance was pretty willing to pay for the tear down inspection. YMMV, but insurance companies don't deny as much as people make out to be (in aircraft at least). Generally they are happy if no one gets hurt

 

[Mikey52]

I watched an old mechanic straighten out a blade bent like that over the course of about 3 weeks. Of course it was a fixed pitch on a C140, so a little different. The engine, he tore down, inspected, reassembled, and reinstalled over night.

Oh the good old days. Before i met him he had a bunch a Stearman's that he ran the old continental tank engines in that he converted to fit.

 

[Half Fast]

Still gonna require a teardown, but how does one only hit the one blade?

A really hard hit that immediately stops the engine?

 

[Clip4]

It is always "fun" being the flying club maintenance officer. Today while on vacation in CA, I get a call from a club member who managed to prop strike the R182. It is bad enough to require a teardown as the tips got a nice bend to them.

So the million dollar question comes down to if there are ANY enginr repair places that don't have a 4 month turn that are reputable? Any hints would be greatly appreciated, as right now we are down to one of our 3 planes being flyable...

Peter

A R182 is a nice club plane, This incident sounds like a classic wheelbarrow accident in the R182, which this model is prone. The member drives the plane unto the runway and when the elevator control is released or maintained, the plane literally has the elevator authority to lift the main tires off the runway. The little weight present is on the nose tire. The wheelbarrow then falls over striking the prop, especially during a crosswind landing.

For a club, do yourself a couple of favors, 1st select a 3 blade prop as replacement if the insurance is paying for a new one. Select the CFIs you are allowing to do recurrent training and checkouts in to insure members are using proper approach speeds and full back elevator control as soon as able after touch down. You will also replace a lot less tires with flat spots.

Why Landing Too Fast Can Lead To A Wheelbarrowing Accident

During takeoff and landing, the majority of your aircraft's weight should be focused on your main gear, not the nosewheel.

www.boldmethod.com

 

[bonefishpete]

Re Prop and Go I say. I know it’s a tear down. Being a club plane.
I would think everything else is fine.
How does insurance work on a prop strike?
IRAN with basic parts bearings or more like rebuilt cylinders? New Cylinders?

 

[Clip4]

Re Prop and Go I say. I know it’s a tear down. Being a club plane.
I would think everything else is fine.
How does insurance work on a prop strike?
IRAN with basic parts bearings or more like rebuilt cylinders? New Cylinders?

The insurance will only pay for the repair the damage. The engine will be repaired per AD 2004-10-14. The prop repaired, governor will overhauled and if the airplane still has a vac pump it will be replaced. Insurance may reduce the claim for normal maintenance items like the time used on prop or governor overhaul.

 

[Magman]

The AD only mandates pulling the Accessory Case and addressing the gear.

With that and dialing the Crank you are meeting requirements and often

this is all the Insurance folks will pay for on a Prop Strike.

SB 533 is not mandatory for Part 91 ops unlike the AD.

The course of action is generally determined before any work is begun.

Too often this results in the aircraft being totaled and taken by the

Insurance Co. if SB 533 was an AD that would be justification to

tear down the engine. Interaction between Insurance/Tech and Owner

can get “interesting”. Insurance companies are not all the same too.

Often I find some that are best a “ walk- way” project.



Some may echo Clip4

When/if the insurance company gives the go -ahead it is NOT for an

overhaul. They will usually cover anything attributed to the Strike.

Note that rust and wear are not covered. Bearings , gaskets etc are

replaced but cylinders would not be. Most of the engines I’ve dealt with

resulted in an o/h. No shop will reassemble an engine with rusted or

wear out of limits. While there is a substantial cost difference between

O/H and IRAN the owner may have little choice except to go ahead and

turn it into an O/H. The alternative would be in getting a bunch of

red-tagged parts as well as the bill for Teardown, cleaning and inspection.


Not all gloom and doom though as there is a lot of things that are covered.,

Engine - removal, shipping , cleaning , inspection and repair as well as

replacement of strike damaged components, return shipping , and

Installation. This can be a substantial figure that can grow higher if

Baffles, exhaust, shock mounts , hoses are due for change.


Prop- removal, shipping both ways are covered as well as reinstallation.

Rust and corrosion are again not covered. In some cases the best and

Possibly the only alternative is a new prop. Availability IS a factor here.


The Strike loads are transmitted to the Engine Mount. Again; removal

Shipping both ways paint stripping, inspection and reinstalling are covered.

Repairs from Strike are covered. Ty-rap gouges etc are not. It seems like

about 1/3 of those I send require non- covered repairs. Never a better

time to do this though. “ Shoes are off is a good time to change socks”.


There are folks that are not familiar with the coverage they are paying for

and are unhappy. My take is the insurance is covers damage and not

maintenance. Unlike the old days of “ Supervised Teardown” most of the

settlements seem fair.


Prop Strike = both blades bet.

Sudden Stoppage = 1 blade bent

 

[Clip4]

Did pilot wheel barrow the nose gear? Check the fire wall for damage.

182, yes, not as likely in a 182rg different mounting.

 

[Bell206]

The AD only mandates pulling the Accessory Case and addressing the gear. With that and dialing the Crank you are meeting requirements and often this is all the Insurance folks will pay for on a Prop Strike.

And? Or are you stating the maintenance variables you mention above are predicated on what the insurance company will only pay toward a prop strike?

 

[Tom J]

I've only been in GA maintenance for a few years, but never had an issue with insurance paying for the full SB533 for Lycoming or the SSI for continental. We have a Conti TSIO-550 on the ramp now, waiting for the okay to send, and a Lycoming coming soon for an engine tear down. No balking by insurance, it seems the ones we've dealt with are okay with paying for the perceived "safer" all in SB/SSI. Maybe we've just been lucky?

 

[Clip4]

I've only been in GA maintenance for a few years, but never had an issue with insurance paying for the full SB533 for Lycoming or the SSI for continental. We have a Conti TSIO-550 on the ramp now, waiting for the okay to send, and a Lycoming coming soon for an engine tear down. No balking by insurance, it seems the ones we've dealt with are okay with paying for the perceived "safer" all in SB/SSI. Maybe we've just been lucky?

Your owners have had gracious adjusters. A club 182RG is likely insured by Avemco. Their employee adjusters are pretty good, their contractor adjusters seem to think they have to screw the owner.

 

[Magman]

And? Or are you stating the maintenance variables you mention above are predicated on what the insurance company will only pay toward a prop strike?

It generally determines whether I want to get involved or not.

I’m too old to want to argue over this and have more productive things to

do. Another factor is my cut ; if any, of the engine shop’s charges.

No problem if the owner claims it; but don’t put me in the middle.

The critical time on this is after the engine shop presents the results

and the owner realizes the Crank, Cam and/ or cylinders cannot be reused

and the insurance company will not pay. Recently dodged one of these

when one of my friends loaned the aircraft to another of my friends and had

a prop strike. The 2 of them made the wrong decision on which insurance

company to use and it’s not a happy situation. Is a O-320 Crank a good

base for a lamp?

 

[WDD]

Small world. Our club had a 182 RG nose gear collapse about the end of 2024. Took about 8 - 10 months to get it IRAN, new prop, etc. AND then we had issues with the nose gear door. Maybe the work load at good shops have lightened a bit, but I don't think this will be back in your club until next year.

 

[Geosync]

I've only been in GA maintenance for a few years, but never had an issue with insurance paying for the full SB533 for Lycoming or the SSI for continental. We have a Conti TSIO-550 on the ramp now, waiting for the okay to send, and a Lycoming coming soon for an engine tear down. No balking by insurance, it seems the ones we've dealt with are okay with paying for the perceived "safer" all in SB/SSI. Maybe we've just been lucky?

Aviation claims adjuster here. Aviation insurance policy wording is very broad and covers a lot. We're nothing like your homeowners or auto insurance. We pay what we owe. IRANs on propstrikes are typically always covered including labor for the R&R and any damage as a result. And if you want to overhaul the engine while it is down the cost for the IRAN can be applied to that, but we WON'T pay for the complete overhaul. There may be "betterment"(pro-ration) on prop governor/life limited parts because you get a 0 time unit back due to the strike. Now, at least at my company we don't force insureds to do a teardown after a propstrike. Sometimes owners don't want to. It's up to the IA signing the logs to be the moral arbiter in that case.

 

[Geosync]

It generally determines whether I want to get involved or not.

I’m too old to want to argue over this and have more productive things to

do. Another factor is my cut ; if any, of the engine shop’s charges.

No problem if the owner claims it; but don’t put me in the middle.

The critical time on this is after the engine shop presents the results

and the owner realizes the Crank, Cam and/ or cylinders cannot be reused

and the insurance company will not pay. Recently dodged one of these

when one of my friends loaned the aircraft to another of my friends and had

a prop strike. The 2 of them made the wrong decision on which insurance

company to use and it’s not a happy situation. Is a O-320 Crank a good

base for a lamp?

Re: insurance, there may be pilot exclusions/pilot schedule on the policy to show who is covered when flying the plane. If it was loaned out to someone who isn't named insured on the policy and they damage it, then there will be no coverage. If there is and open pilot warranty, then any pilot who flies it is covered.

And "wear and tear" found during an IRAN is not covered because it wasn't caused by the propstrike. No insurance company covers wear and tear, bet it auto, home or airplane.

If it IS damage caused by the propstike, it is covered. But yes, there is a risk of discovering non-covered wear like corrosion during IRANs. Engine shops are pretty good at separating wear from sudden stoppage damage. If it is questionable as to the cause, personally I pay it.

Just want to clarify insurance coverage for others out there because it is kind of a mystery. signed- an aviation claims adjuster.

 

[hindsight2020]

We're in the middle of replacing an engine that came from a very "reputable" shop, where a stud bolt for a cylinder started coming loose about 1300 hours into the engine's service life, so we aren't getting anywhere close to TBO before doing some major work on it, and we're finding that same 3-4 month turnaround.

And that's why I've had cash on hand for years and won't pull the trigger. I won't get into that powerplant morass again without assurances. I'm really hoping automotive options for RVs become more prevalent in next decade, cuz this powerplant capture is killing the avocation for me. It doesn't pencil out. Heck, maybe even an mid time engine swap program for credit or something. The turn times is just insult to injury.

 

[Tom J]

Aviation claims adjuster here. Aviation insurance policy wording is very broad and covers a lot. We're nothing like your homeowners or auto insurance. We pay what we owe. IRANs on propstrikes are typically always covered including labor for the R&R and any damage as a result. And if you want to overhaul the engine while it is down the cost for the IRAN can be applied to that, but we WON'T pay for the complete overhaul. There may be "betterment"(pro-ration) on prop governor/life limited parts because you get a 0 time unit back due to the strike. Now, at least at my company we don't force insureds to do a teardown after a propstrike. Sometimes owners don't want to. It's up to the IA signing the logs to be the moral arbiter in that case.

That's what I was trying to convey. A couple of the prop strikes have taken the insurance coverage of the IRAN (SB533) and then paid the delta for the full OH, others happy to just take the IRAN. Thus far, none have opted for just the AD.

 

[MIFlyer]

If you have a few of these in your club, it might be worth hanging a rebuilt engine/prop and building this as a spare.

Alternatively, even with one plane, you might be ahead if it's higher time to put the insurance teardown dollars towards a full OH and by chipping some money in, get a rebuilt engine/prop.

 

[3393RP]

Yeah worst part is that I am on Vacation, so I am relying on having others looking at the plane. From what I got out of the flustered pilot it sounded like a probabble porpoise. I am worried about the firewall as well.

Really sorry to hear of this misfortune. I hope you find a reasonable repair solution.