Private Plane

[Mtns2Skies]

Your 160 kt criteria will limit your choices dramatically. There are a lot of 140 kt to 150 kt single engine aircraft out there including the Piper Arrow, Cardinal RG, Grumman Tiger, any of the lower hp V-tails, the naturally aspirated Mooneys that will take only 10 or 15 additional minutes to cover your short 200 nm to 300 nm trips.

Let me be perfectly clear. There isn't a naturally aspirated cardinal or Arrow on this earth that will make 140kts. 130 is even pushing it for those planes in cruise. I think 130 is also more realistic for the Tiger as well.

 

[dmcummins]

Buy a 150knt plane and wait for a 20knt tailwind.

 

[Sundancer]

LongEZ, with baggage pods.

 

[Tantalum]

These seem like a great airplane that very few people ever bring up.

They have a wooden wing, right? Something like almost 2,000 pieces of spruce and mahogany to make up the wing... here is a picture of one after a wreck showing the wood

 

[Mtns2Skies]

They have a wooden wing, right? Something like almost 2,000 pieces of spruce and mahogany to make up the wing... here is a picture of one after a wreck showing the wood
View attachment 52702

well @Let'sgoflying! has one IIRC. Maybe he can weigh in on them.

 

[Tantalum]

There isn't a naturally aspirated cardinal or Arrow on this earth that will make 140kts.

I remember I was so pumped to fly the Arrow when the club had one, primarily because it had retractable gear and I thought it was the coolest thing, but it was so much more expensive than the Warrior to rent and from what I remember the speed was barely 130, if that even. Albeit it was a club beater, but I remember being disappointed by the speed

 

[JCranford]

Hmm why is that? I don't know much about them...

Termites

 

[Tantalum]

Incidentally, out of curiosity I looked up the price of old SR22s out of curiosity, OP mentioned he needed speed, so wanted to check.. how are these lowish time 22s so cheap (relatively speaking)?

 

[GRG55]

Incidentally, out of curiosity I looked up the price of old SR22s out of curiosity, OP mentioned he needed speed, so wanted to check.. how are these lowish time 22s so cheap (relatively speaking)?

There's a lot of them out there (not a rare airplane on the used market) + the wing mod on the G3 in 2007 made the older ones less desirable.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

Ever gotten an insurance quote on one? $4000+

Throwing a red flag on this play.
Never paid over $1800, for 50K hull & 1M smooth. Currently paying $1200
Where did you get that info? There is a long term thread on superviking forum with members posting rates. They are not any more than Bonanza's etc.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

well @Let'sgoflying! has one IIRC. Maybe he can weigh in on them.

I have very little knowledge of the wood in the wing. I have done only a few things involving the wood, like most owners. Most of the maintenance on Vikings is with the gear, the electronics, the FWF just like all other planes. The wood is one of those things that uninformed are concerned with but most owners never mess with.
Buy good wood, keep the seals intact, fly regularly, you will rarely be concerned with the (incredibly stout and formidable) wood wing.

 

[pigpenracing]

Ever gotten an insurance quote on one? $4000+

Where did that come from??? The quote I got was just over $1300 a year with only 5 hours of retract time. Or liability is about $400 a year. Or just fly without insurance.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

https://www.trade-a-plane.com/searc...pe=aircraft&s-sort_key=price&s-sort_order=asc

 

[JCranford]

Where did that come from??? The quote I got was just over $1300 a year with only 5 hours of retract time. Or liability is about $400 a year. Or just fly without insurance.

Geez, where are you guys getting THOSE quotes? I cant recall the company but a friend who has a little more time than me and no retract time was quoted 4200

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

Facer insurance but there are several posted on the Viking chat.

I was quoted less for a homebuilt with 100K hull, 1M smooth - I think the rates you were told are out of line. Avemco maybe?

 

[Salty]

Geez, where are you guys getting THOSE quotes? I cant recall the company but a friend who has a little more time than me and no retract time was quoted 4200

I got multiple quotes for less than 1600 for my mooney when I had 10 hours of retract and 55 total hours.

 

[Stets656]

Any recommendations on the mooney models? I see the J and K do around 160-175 ish, looking for something maybe a little bit faster, 185-190 knots would be per perfect. Thoughts on turbos? Is the extra maintenance and cost worth it?

 

[eman1200]

so, you want 190 knots for 60 grand? even 100 grand?

 

[dell30rb]

so, you want 190 knots for 60 grand? even 100 grand?

You could probably find a retract glasair or lancair that will come close, but is only a 2 seat aircraft.

A decent Cessna 310 could probably be had for around 100k and I think 180-185 is not unreasonable to expect out of those. But it will cost about twice as much to operate and insure than a single.

For singles the 160kt target is reasonable for a purchase price at 100k or less. Comanche, Mooney J, Older Bonanza. But you won't find a 190 knot plane that can carry 3 people. To get there, you are looking at big block mooneys which run 150k+

 

[gsengle]

If you wanna go faster you'll spend at least 50k more for a Bravo (m20m) which is a turbo, or my favorite Mooney the M20R Ovation.

Many think the 252 (M20K) was the best Mooney ever made... not the fastest but really fast for the fuel....


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[iamtheari]

Any recommendations on the mooney models? I see the J and K do around 160-175 ish, looking for something maybe a little bit faster, 185-190 knots would be per perfect. Thoughts on turbos? Is the extra maintenance and cost worth it?

Are you flying over mountains? Turbos are worth it for people who will fly at altitudes where they really help (over 12,000 or so) and generally not worth it for the rest of us. You won't get into the flight levels on a 300 nm trip in a plane that burns AvGas, so getting way up high to take advantage of thinner air or stronger tailwinds won't be a factor.

Why do you want a 190-knot plane for a 300 nm trip? The time savings over a 175-knot plane will be under 7 minutes, and the acquisition cost is going to be double for similar condition aircraft. If I were going to spend that much money for that short of a trip, I would be investing in a fresher engine, newer avionics, more space, or more useful load rather than more speed.

 

[bnt83]

I would probably get some sort of canard then use left over money to install new equipment that I wanted.

https://www.trade-a-plane.com/searc...ELOCITY+XL&listing_id=2048873&s-type=aircraft

 

[hindsight2020]

Let me be perfectly clear. There isn't a naturally aspirated cardinal or Arrow on this earth that will make 140kts. 130 is even pushing it for those planes in cruise. I think 130 is also more realistic for the Tiger as well.

Mine does it. 7500-9000 wot 2400rpm leaned to 9gph. 132-135 depending on weight and time of year (temperature). Thats the way I've been flying it for close to 4 years.

Every now and then I pour the coals to see what it'll do. Last week with 30 gallons of fuel and solo, 75pct circa 7500 Have me 140 true, typically that nets me around 138.

And yes, i do have gap seals, flap hinge fairings and root fairing, but the airplane was dirty as hell and the paint is not new or even complete (repair history), so it's probably a wash on the speed mods. It's no mooney, but it's a hell of a cheaper way of getting 130knots than a dakota or 182. To each their own.

 

[eman1200]

Mine does it. 7500-9000 wot 2400rpm leaned to 9gph. 132-135 depending on weight and time of year (temperature). Thats the way I've been flying it for close to 4 years.

Every now and then I pour the coals to see what it'll do. Last week with 30 gallons of fuel and solo, 75pct circa 7500 Have me 140 true, typically that nets me around 138.

And yes, i do have gap seals, flap hinge fairings and root fairing, but the airplane was dirty as hell and the paint is not new or even complete (repair history), so it's probably a wash on the speed mods. It's no mooney, but it's a hell of a cheaper way of getting 130knots than a dakota or 182. To each their own.

I like arrows (I'm somewhat partial to pipers since that's what the bulk of my time has been in). they are so easy to fly. I'd probably have one if the good ones (stretched cabin) weren't overpriced, or in the same price range as an older mooney. for close to the same price, I'm picking mooney. well, that and the extra speed....

 

[hindsight2020]

I like arrows (I'm somewhat partial to pipers since that's what the bulk of my time has been in). they are so easy to fly. I'd probably have one if the good ones (stretched cabin) weren't overpriced, or in the same price range as an older mooney. for close to the same price, I'm picking mooney. well, that and the extra speed....

You mean the arrow III are overpriced, which I agree, that's why I have a II. Post 72 arrow 2s are stretched, mine is a 74.
I dont don't have a full paint job, but I have waas 430, autopilot and a healthy engine for less than 50k. Hell I can't even touch an archer II with that panel setup for that, and that's lower performance all around.

At any rate, no doubt a 20F is a better value than an arrow. I dont consider an E or c model a fair comparison as they dont have a back seat worth a damn for my mission, criticism that i levy on airplanes as large as the pre 66 non-B comanches mind you. I looked at the 20F and opted for the arrow because in my assessment the arrow is cheaper to maintain and the ergonomics of the front seats on the Mooney were non-starters for me. I would never claim the arrow is a better performer than a mooney, and for those who are willing to put up with the seating, and the opportunity cost of bent nose trusses on simpleton ground handling, leaking spar wall fuel cavity joints, and leaking/sagging flap system, then I'll be the first one to concede the Mooney is a superior choice for the money. No free lunch in life, is the best way I can normalize the comparison.

 

[GRG55]

Any recommendations on the mooney models? I see the J and K do around 160-175 ish, looking for something maybe a little bit faster, 185-190 knots would be per perfect. Thoughts on turbos? Is the extra maintenance and cost worth it?

You stated you are doing 200 nm to 300 nm trips. Unless you are crossing a 12,000 ft mountain range why would you need 190 kts or a turbocharger for that?

If you insist you are probably limited to trying to find a good Mooney 231, but I doubt you'll find one worth owning for under $100k.

 

[JCranford]

I gotta ask directly since I don't think anyone else in this thread has...Are you a pilot? Or are you looking to be ferried around? Seems your requests are a tad unreasonable for someone 'in the know' (ie, a pilot). Airplanes, especially the ones in your chosen price range, have certain limitations. Those limitation usually manifest themselves in speed, load carrying ability and/or number of seats.

That said...300hp Turbo 210

 

[hindsight2020]

everybody knows this will eventually yield RV-10, helmet and allied invasion livery.

/thread.

 

[Twin_Flyer]

Try United but all of you may not get there.

Unless...

 

[Stets656]

Are you flying over mountains? Turbos are worth it for people who will fly at altitudes where they really help (over 12,000 or so) and generally not worth it for the rest of us. You won't get into the flight levels on a 300 nm trip in a plane that burns AvGas, so getting way up high to take advantage of thinner air or stronger tailwinds won't be a factor.

Why do you want a 190-knot plane for a 300 nm trip? The time savings over a 175-knot plane will be under 7 minutes, and the acquisition cost is going to be double for similar condition aircraft. If I were going to spend that much money for that short of a trip, I would be investing in a fresher engine, newer avionics, more space, or more useful load rather than more speed.

I mean it will mostly be used for x-country's, I'd say 50% of them will 300-600 nm trips and a few ones that will be used for trips to Florida(1100 miles, that's where the extra speed will help). Just exploring my options, I understand the shorter the distance the less time you are going to save. From what I've gathered and researched, Mooneys, SR22s, and Bonanza's will all fit the bill(I'm probably missing a few.) Also need something with a capable IFR platform, doesn't necessarily need to be turbo, FIKI, glass pit, AC, etc. All of that extra stuff will just cost extra mx and insurance $$$. I'm a commercial pilot but I'm not an aircraft broker so I just want some ideas from people with experience. That said, I'd like the extra speed for the longer trips but it's not a deal breaker. Thanks for the info so far.

 

[iamtheari]

I mean it will mostly be used for x-country's, I'd say 50% of them will 300-600 nm trips and a few ones that will be used for trips to Florida(1100 miles, that's where the extra speed will help). Just exploring my options, I understand the shorter the distance the less time you are going to save. From what I've gathered and researched, Mooneys, SR22s, and Bonanza's will all fit the bill(I'm probably missing a few.) Also need something with a capable IFR platform, doesn't necessarily need to be turbo, FIKI, glass pit, AC, etc. All of that extra stuff will just cost extra mx and insurance $$$. I'm a commercial pilot but I'm not an aircraft broker so I just want some ideas from people with experience. That said, I'd like the extra speed for the longer trips but it's not a deal breaker. Thanks for the info so far.

That's different. Your first post said 200-300 nm trips. No other details on length. A 600 nm or 1100 nm mission is very different from a 300 nm mission so this new information should help you get some suggestions. My mission is generally under 500 nm and most often under 250 nm so my Arrow does the job just fine.

 

[gsengle]

I've flown my FIKI Ovation nonstop over 1000nm to FL, the range is amazing. The ultimate speed mod is skipping a fuel stop. I think the best value are the early ones before G1000, they're generally really well equipped, here is my example. Sounds like you're not sold on Turbo. But will run you a wee bit more than 100k... if not an Ovation, the K is really fast if you're willing to fly high.

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[azblackbird]

@gsengle I can see why you're so proud. Nothing wrong with that. I love Mooneys and would have one in a heartbeat just because they're so damn fast and efficient. Unfortunately my body is catching up to my age, and I just can't see myself hopping on a wing and stuffing myself into the cockpit. For my business travels, I'll probably end up with a T182RG or T210 down the road that I can get in and out of more easily.

 

[gsengle]

Yes the OP didn't say if he wanted a Porsche or a Caddy... unfortunately in airplanes sometime size is inversely related to speed...


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[Stets656]

I've flown my FIKI Ovation nonstop over 1000nm to FL, the range is amazing. The ultimate speed mod is skipping a fuel stop. I think the best value are the early ones before G1000, they're generally really well equipped, here is my example. Sounds like you're not sold on Turbo. But will run you a wee bit more than 100k... if not an Ovation, the K is really fast if you're willing to fly high.

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What does the Ovation cruise at? Price tag? I'm just not so sure that the extra hassle of maintaining and paying for a turbo would be worth the extra speed. Thanks.

 

[Stets656]

That's different. Your first post said 200-300 nm trips. No other details on length. A 600 nm or 1100 nm mission is very different from a 300 nm mission so this new information should help you get some suggestions. My mission is generally under 500 nm and most often under 250 nm so my Arrow does the job just fine.

I said 50% of the time. That means theres a whole other 50% unaccounted for.

 

[gsengle]

That's the point. An Ovation is not a turbo. It's a NA io550. Its so well designed doesn't even need cowl flaps. Simple. I fly it slow at 175 on 13gph lean of peak. I like effiency. Zoom in on the photo and see what's what...

Here is an excellent review: http://www.mooneypilots.com/mapalog/M20R Evaluation/M20R.htm

And here is a low price point example... https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/17233311/1997-mooney-m20r-ovation


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[SCCutler]

I've flown my FIKI Ovation nonstop over 1000nm to FL, the range is amazing. The ultimate speed mod is skipping a fuel stop. I think the best value are the early ones before G1000, they're generally really well equipped, here is my example. Sounds like you're not sold on Turbo. But will run you a wee bit more than 100k... if not an Ovation, the K is really fast if you're willing to fly high.

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Nice buggy!

 

[iamtheari]

I said 50% of the time. That means theres a whole other 50% unaccounted for.

I'm sorry. I do not see that in your original post.

 

[JCranford]

Dayum, that's beautimous!