Preheating off-base

There are thousand watt generators on Amazon and other places in the $125 range. One of those, a 300W sump heater and a 500W cube heater ducted into the cowl would do you right in an hour or so.
 
I use a Northern Companion heater on my 180. Basically a high powered camp stove burning 100ll with a stainless chimney and scat hose into the cowl flaps.
 
Thinking outside the box, but a chimney style charcoal starter, a zip lock bag of lump charcoal and a canvas drop cloth all together don’t weight much (I’m thinking off airport, ski equipped small aircraft in the back country). Stake out the drop cloth over the engine to the ground to make a “tent” and put the charcoal chimney in it.
 
Flatiowa said:
Thinking outside the box, but a chimney style charcoal starter, a zip lock bag of lump charcoal and a canvas drop cloth all together don’t weight much (I’m thinking off airport, ski equipped small aircraft in the back country). Stake out the drop cloth over the engine to the ground to make a “tent” and put the charcoal chimney in it.
Click to expand...
I remember reading somewhere that they did something like that on the eastern front in WW2.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Oil dilution was indeed a thing back in the large radial days, but those were actual built-in systems that injected fuel to the oil system like an electric primer.

I've never heard of anyone adding fuel to the oil tank. I've flown a few airplanes that had originally had dilution systems, and never seen one that was still functional.

I've also heard the stories of guys in Alaska draining the oil and bringing it indoors next to a cast iron stove to keep warm, but then all you are doing is pouring it back into the tank before start. Doesn't do much for the cold soaked engine/bearings.

I trust Ted's advice on caring for engines in cold environments over old-timer stories when engines, parts and labor was unlimited. Oil is only one part of the problem. For engine longevity, you really want to find a way to keep the whole engine warm. If you can't get a hangar, it is well worth the expense to get a Reiff or Tanis system (engine and sump/tank heat) as well as blankets and a portable power source.

You can find good tips on keeping your engine(s) healthy in Engineer Ted's threads pinned at the top of the Maintenance sub-forum.
Click to expand...
Actually oil dilution was a thing in the early Cessna days with an oil dilution option available on 182s.
 
murphey said:
Unfortunately, anything with a Li battery is not a good idea to carry in your airplane. The Jackery comes in a box with a very visible and very large sticker "Fobidden for transport in aircraft or vessel".
Click to expand...
Better not fly with a phone or tablet. :rolleyes:

Digital watch, pacemaker, laptop, anything with a CMOS battery or just about any rechargeable device.
 
Unfortunately lots of cold weather experience.

Aircraft has band heaters all cylinders plus a sump heater. Preheat below 32 on the road, more like 50 at home since aircraft is already in a hangar with power.

Full insulated cowl cover. Cowl plugs. Prop blade covers - blades are radiators.

Plug in night before using always on board 75 foot extension cord. Preplan where will park via call to airport. If no outlet possible Honda 2000W generator gets strapped in back seat.

This will provide 100 F oil in morning with OAT of -5 or -10.
 
Having seen a hangar fire caused by a gascolator drip, I'm not preheating with anything involving an open flame. My advice to the OP is either a)buy a Honda/Yamaha generator or b) only fly to places that'll plug the Tanis/Reiff in.
 
mondtster said:
The suggestion of "the needle starting to move" may come from the flight manuals of some Continental powered aircraft. Continental seems to draw a more definitive line for the minimum oil temperature for takeoff than Lycoming seems to.
Click to expand...
That's interesting. I've only flown Lycomings and received the same advice. But that doesn't contradict your theory that the original source was somewhere else.

mondtster said:
I suspect the directive for preheat below 10F has more to do with the lower temperature limit for SAE 20W motor oil than some engine design aspect but there could be multiple reasons for that limit. I'd guess that there aren't too many engines that will start when it is that cold without assistance anyway.
Click to expand...
Can you say more about that? This is the first I've heard that the oil itself might have a safe range.

FWIW, with multi-viscosity oil the handful of times I've tried to start between 10 and 20F have presented no problems.
 
Being a tie down person, I was thinking about a Tanis and heating with a small generator. But then I read where the Tanis takes many hours to pre heat. I can’t leave a Honda generator running for hours overnight. Among other things, airport isn’t going to like that.

So I built a pre heater out of a small battery powered Ryobi propane heater. Can run off of a small camp stove size propane bottle. Not exactly easily portable because of the bulky air ducts however.
 
OneCharlieTango said:
Having seen a hangar fire caused by a gascolator drip, I'm not preheating with anything involving an open flame. My advice to the OP is either a)buy a Honda/Yamaha generator or b) only fly to places that'll plug the Tanis/Reiff in.
Click to expand...
FWIW, when I checked the specs on the plane I used to fly that had cylinder heaters, the load was more than the 1000w honda. I bought the 2200 for that reason. Now I have oil pan only and could use the 1000w but have gotten older and less tolerant of weather, so haven't needed to preheat away from base in a number of years. At base, I keep things plugged in.
 
You got something I don't? I posted the Lycoming recommendation. It says 10F.
 
In the aforementioned "Engineer Ted's" post:

Ted

Thread 'Engineer Ted's How to Make Your Engine Last (ground)'

By (un?)popular demand, here are my tips for how to make your piston engines last, and not. This goes into some of the varying ways of keeping engines happy while they're sitting in the hangar, waiting for you to let them unleash their power and break the surly bonds of earth. We're not talking about running your engine.

1) Preheating

Preheating is good for your engine. I personally recommend a full Tanis or Reiff heater setup. My personal preference is Tanis, as I believe they sell a cleaner product, and I also like the fact that they place heat right at the cylinder head (where...
  • Like

There are different theories on when to plug in. I would say definitely below 40F, and any other temperature has benefits still. So this depends on how much you want to go to the trouble of plugging in.
Click to expand...

This does not mean the engine will not start below a 40F cold soak. I've started without preheat as low as 10F, and I've started engines with not enough preheat (but some) at -25F.

You will, however, have significantly accelerated wear on those cold starts. This is both due to the tighter clearances due to dissimilar metals being colder, and then also the cold, thick oil slowly making its way through passages and to all the critical parts. This is less of an issue with 15W-50 or 20W-50 than it is with straight weight oil, but keep in mind that cars these days are running 0W oils. Remember old cars where you could tell the engine wasn't making as much power when it was cold? Much of that was pumping losses from oil. Cold 20W-50 is still thick as molasses. Just try filling your plane with 20W-50 that's been sitting in a cold hangar for a demonstration.

Damage to the engine? Yes, but of the "accelerated wear" variety not the "catastrophic failure" variety. Back "a long time ago" I did a number of cold starts on a brand new, 0 time IO-580-B1A (which for the purposes of this conversation has no differences worth noting from any other engine any of you fly), doing cold start calibrations. After the completion of our testing, the engine was torn down to replace components that were worn. Every single bearing and most of the pistons were replaced due to wear/scoring. We also replaced some valve springs due to rust on them (the oil never got hot so the condensation never boiled out - that's less related) and some other items.

Will it cause an engine failure? Likely no. Will it reduce the amount of time before you have compression issues or low oil pressure, causing major maintenance? Potentially. Can it cause an engine failure? Yes, that happened to the previous owner of the 310 when he did a Red Dragon style preheat in very cold weather (something well below 0), and spun a bearing on one of the engines.

The combustion aspect (i.e. actually getting the engine to start) is another matter. Yes, it should start down to the 10F, but if your ignition system is weak, battery is weak, starter cables are weak (causing low cranking RPM), priming is off... any of those can make it much harder to start. When I first got the Aztec the ignition on it was not fantastic, and I did have a time where I couldn't get it to start at 10F.

As covered in my threads, I always took a pragmatic approach to it. I would plug in and preheat when I could below 40F. For the OP's question about mid 20s, I probably wouldn't worry about it if it was going to be difficult and just start it as is.

The -25F point above was the only time I got caught in a time cold enough to go "Oh, that's bad". It was back with the Mooney, I had a dog flight and I woke up to find exceedingly cold temperatures in PA. I drove to the airport (my modern truck barely started, but did), plugged the preheater in a couple hours before my flight. It did start, but it was very challenging to do so. It was undoubtedly bad for the engine, but it did start and run.

Also an extremely memorable flight. It took off like a Maule!
 
Given the Tanis heater needs 6 hours (?) for a complete pre heat, do owners just turn it on the night before, or do they leave it plugged in / running all the time in the winter?

I believe I've read where continuous heat like that is bad, as it leads to constant condensation inside the case.

Given you need only 1/2 hour with a "traditional" propane type pre heater, I'd think that would be preferable. Perhaps is just a hanger vs tie down issue.

Thoughts?
 
WDD said:
Given the Tanis heater needs 6 hours (?) for a complete pre heat, do owners just turn it on the night before, or do they leave it plugged in / running all the time in the winter?

I believe I've read where continuous heat like that is bad, as it leads to constant condensation inside the case.

Given you need only 1/2 hour with a "traditional" propane type pre heater, I'd think that would be preferable. Perhaps is just a hanger vs tie down issue.

Thoughts?
Click to expand...
Complete pre-heat is one thing. Maybe you need that if you're trying to pre-heat in 0F weather. But that's really cold. But for milder conditions, even 30 minutes with a 400W sump heater and a 500W cube heater blowing into the cowl makes a real difference. You get a lot of heat conduction through the cylinder fins and you warm the sump (and the aluminum engine case) with the sump heater using aluminum's heat conduction properties.

If you have a hangar and power, something like a programmable timer (cheap, but requires you to go there and set it a day or three in advance) or a remote switch (example: Switcheon) works well. Of course, you still have the option of showing up 30 minutes early and powering up the sump heater and a couple of blow driers pointed into the cowl openings. That's what I still do if I forget to activate the switcheon.
 
Last edited:
kyleb said:
There are thousand watt generators on Amazon and other places in the $125 range. One of those, a 300W sump heater and a 500W cube heater ducted into the cowl would do you right in an hour or so.
Click to expand...
I have Reiff bands and oil sump heater on my IO360 that pull 500 Watts. I carry a 1000W 12VDC/120VAC converter and extension cord in the winter. If I am away from home, I use my rental car or friend/family member's car to run the converter. Just pop the hood, hook the converter leads to your battery, run an extension cord to the heater plug on the plane. My engine heater can warm the engine about 10 degrees per hour. I usually bring breakfast and sit and eat it in the car or at the FBO while the car/converter/engine heater does its thing.
 
WDD said:
Given the Tanis heater needs 6 hours (?) for a complete pre heat, do owners just turn it on the night before, or do they leave it plugged in / running all the time in the winter?

I believe I've read where continuous heat like that is bad, as it leads to constant condensation inside the case.

Given you need only 1/2 hour with a "traditional" propane type pre heater, I'd think that would be preferable. Perhaps is just a hanger vs tie down issue.

Thoughts?
Click to expand...

If I was home, I generally went by the hangar the night before to plug the plane in. Leaving it in plugged in all the time isn't necessarily bad, but the reality is you probably aren't flying every day so it is unnecessary. I discuss this some in my thread linked above. The real thing to never do is put your pre-heater on a timer. That's what will cause the thermal cycling and condensation issues.

Propane heaters are not preferable, again, goes into detail in the thread.
 
WDD said:
Given the Tanis heater needs 6 hours (?) for a
Given you need only 1/2 hour with a "traditional" propane type pre heater, I'd think that would be preferable. Perhaps is just a hanger vs tie down issue.

Thoughts?
Click to expand...
I leave it plugged in at the hangar with a temperature set point (special plug with temp set point). I’m also running an engine dehumidifier all the time too.
 
bonefishpete said:
Pay the FBO to put plane in a heated hangar.
Click to expand...
Or just pay the FBO to preheat your plane. But doing your pre flight in a heated hangar would be nice.

My home airport doesn’t have an FBO hangar unfortunately.
 
David Loftus said:
I have Reiff bands and oil sump heater on my IO360 that pull 500 Watts. I carry a 1000W 12VDC/120VAC converter and extension cord in the winter. If I am away from home, I use my rental car or friend/family member's car to run the converter. Just pop the hood, hook the converter leads to your battery, run an extension cord to the heater plug on the plane. My engine heater can warm the engine about 10 degrees per hour. I usually bring breakfast and sit and eat it in the car or at the FBO while the car/converter/engine heater does its thing.
Click to expand...
This is a pretty smart idea. Much lighter and easier to use, and I'll almost always have a car available.

bonefishpete said:
Pay the FBO to put plane in a heated hangar.
Click to expand...

I've done this when possible, but unfortunately there are some pretty rural airports that don't really have much in the way of facilities other than fuel pumps and a small office/pilot lounge.
 
  • Like
Reactions: WDD
WDD said:
Given the Tanis heater needs 6 hours (?) for a complete pre heat, do owners just turn it on the night before, or do they leave it plugged in / running all the time in the winter?

I believe I've read where continuous heat like that is bad, as it leads to constant condensation inside the case.

Given you need only 1/2 hour with a "traditional" propane type pre heater, I'd think that would be preferable. Perhaps is just a hanger vs tie down issue.

Thoughts?
Click to expand...

A buddy with a Lyc O360 kept in an unheated hangar used to keep his Tanis plugged in 24/7 all winter. He wouldn't fly much in the winter, and typically only flew it 30 to 70 hours annually. Always used Aeroshell multiweight (he said because the mouse milk is built into it).

At just under 1000 SMOH it ate the #1 CAM lobe (closest to the propeller) and needed to be overhauled. Upon opening it up, there was lots of rust.

Don't know if keeping it plugged in all winter contributed to this, or not. But on his new rebuild he switched oil to Phillips 20/50 with Camguard, and doesn't plan on plugging it in (now with a blanket) until the night before a winter morning flight.

Regarding the use of Red Dragon type propane engine heaters on aircraft tied down outside in cold weather climates, so cold it that doesn't get above freezing during the day, I had an experience that may only be a "one off" relating to preheat (or maybe not):

airfactsjournal.com

No Power, No Time: A Glide Toward Shore : Air Facts Journal

Instinctively I had started a left turn towards the shoreline and quickly ran through the memorized emergency engine procedures: carb heat (that lever was jammed), mixture, mags, fuel pump on, and switched fuel tanks. Nothing helped. I found a throttle setting, somewhere between half open and...
airfactsjournal.com airfactsjournal.com
 
Rick A said:
Regarding the use of Red Dragon type propane engine heaters on aircraft tied down outside in cold weather climates, so cold it that doesn't get above freezing during the day, I had an experience that may only be a "one off" relating to preheat (or maybe not):

airfactsjournal.com

No Power, No Time: A Glide Toward Shore : Air Facts Journal

Instinctively I had started a left turn towards the shoreline and quickly ran through the memorized emergency engine procedures: carb heat (that lever was jammed), mixture, mags, fuel pump on, and switched fuel tanks. Nothing helped. I found a throttle setting, somewhere between half open and...
airfactsjournal.com airfactsjournal.com
Click to expand...
Wow, great story and lessons to learn vicariously!
 
WDD said:
Given the Tanis heater needs 6 hours (?) for a complete pre heat, do owners just turn it on the night before, or do they leave it plugged in / running all the time in the winter?

I believe I've read where continuous heat like that is bad, as it leads to constant condensation inside the case.
Click to expand...
Many people use a cellphone-controlled switch to turn a Tanis or similar heater on a few hours before flight. I have tried a few different solutions over the last ten or so winters, and the one that has worked completely reliably for me is Switcheon. It requires a subscription (I think it's $50/year) but does not rely on WIFI.

Leaving a Tanis or similar heater plugged in 24/7 is a touchy subject amongst pilots and mechanics. Some say it's fine; others blame corrosion on it (due to uneven warming of surfaces and the resulting condensation of moisture, and the fact that corrosion progresses faster at warmer temperature). I do not know which group is right, but everyone agrees there is no harm in preheating only when needed before a flight - so that's what I do.

By the way, six hours seems excessive from my experience. I can get to a very comfortable temperature in two hours, and if I'm in a rush even just one hour will make a nice difference. I have the full Tanis set with two heater pads (top and bottom of case) plus an individual heating element for each cylinder. Of course there are other factors, like ambient temperature (where do you start from?) and whether you do this in a hangar or outside on the ramp where the wind doesn't help.

- Martin
 
WDD said:
Given the Tanis heater needs 6 hours (?) for a complete pre heat, do owners just turn it on the night before, or do they leave it plugged in / running all the time in the winter?
Click to expand...
I leave mine plugged in all winter. I usually don't have 6 hours between deciding to fly and flying, so if I didn't leave it plugged in all winter, I probably wouldn't fly in the winter. Whatever negative effects there may be from having it plugged in are likely nowhere near as bad as the effects of not flying it often enough.

WDD said:
I believe I've read where continuous heat like that is bad, as it leads to constant condensation inside the case.
Click to expand...
Well, there's apples and oranges here. If you only have a sump heater, then don't plug in all the time as you may end up boiling water out of the oil, only for it to condense in the cylinders which is definitely bad.

OTOH, I have both the sump and cylinder heaters, and I keep cowl plugs in and a blanket on top of the cowl to retain as much heat as possible and thus keep the heating more even so that all the parts of the engine are warm enough that the moisture won't condense. I also leave the oil filler cap open so that the moisture can escape.

I would not plug in with a temp switch either - You'd be heating and cooling in cycles, and I think it's fairly likely that you'd sometimes/always have parts of the engine that were going above and below the dewpoint and getting repeated condensation.

A remote switch might be a better idea, but for some reason the fuel pump keeps eating all my money.

WDD said:
Given you need only 1/2 hour with a "traditional" propane type pre heater, I'd think that would be preferable.
Click to expand...
I don't think these are anywhere near as effective. You're heating from the outside in, so even though a propane heater is putting out a lot more BTUs, an awful lot of them are escaping to the surroundings instead of warming the engine. Also, the oil is about the last thing to warm up when doing it this way.

Sure beats nothing, though.
 

Attachments

  • IMG_4742.jpeg
    IMG_4742.jpeg
    960.4 KB · Views: 9
David Loftus said:
I have Reiff bands and oil sump heater on my IO360 that pull 500 Watts. I carry a 1000W 12VDC/120VAC converter and extension cord in the winter. If I am away from home, I use my rental car or friend/family member's car to run the converter. Just pop the hood, hook the converter leads to your battery, run an extension cord to the heater plug on the plane. My engine heater can warm the engine about 10 degrees per hour. I usually bring breakfast and sit and eat it in the car or at the FBO while the car/converter/engine heater does its thing.
Click to expand...
What converter do you use and have you run into any issues with the converter damaging the electronics in the car?
 
GeorgeC said:
My mechanic has a wagon with a battery and the [diesel] heater and some ducting, he says it works great.
Click to expand...
I got to see that rig in operation today. Very slick.
 
Last edited:
David Loftus said:
I have Reiff bands and oil sump heater on my IO360 that pull 500 Watts. I carry a 1000W 12VDC/120VAC converter and extension cord in the winter. If I am away from home, I use my rental car or friend/family member's car to run the converter. Just pop the hood, hook the converter leads to your battery, run an extension cord to the heater plug on the plane. My engine heater can warm the engine about 10 degrees per hour. I usually bring breakfast and sit and eat it in the car or at the FBO while the car/converter/engine heater does its thing.
Click to expand...
I hope you leave the car running; repeatedly draining a non-deep cycle battery will shorten its life.
 
GeorgeC said:
I got to see that rig in operation today. Very slick.
Click to expand...
By now the established way of preheating is the electric band/sump. The combustion heaters, in my experience, either scorch or insufficiently heat. Sure a dragon's breath of flame may come out, but heating 200-550# of steel and aluminum takes a nice slow energy transfer. YMMV, but 40 years of flying in the north country teaches you a thing or two. Think the bands + sump heater are on the order of $1500 and do not take long to install.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Oil dilution was indeed a thing back in the large radial days, but those were actual built-in systems that injected fuel to the oil system like an electric primer.
Click to expand...
I have quite a few old Army TMs that say diluting engine oil with diesel or kero was allowed. The first choice was to drain the oil when still warm and bring it inside... but I'm sure that ruined quite a few motors that were started without oil.

There were also some gasoline fueled engine heaters that were more likely to start a fire than simply warm the engine.

If I had to warm up a cold soaked engine before flight my first option would be cell phone controlled heating elements on the oil pan. Second would be a diesel heater. Lastly would be a propane heater.
 
Steamflyer said:
By now the established way of preheating is the electric band/sump. The combustion heaters, in my experience, either scorch or insufficiently heat. Sure a dragon's breath of flame may come out, but heating 200-550# of steel and aluminum takes a nice slow energy transfer. YMMV, but 40 years of flying in the north country teaches you a thing or two. Think the bands + sump heater are on the order of $1500 and do not take long to install.
Click to expand...
And are a million times more convenient also.
 
At one point I had an antique (1940s vintage) Briggs & Stratton powered generator. The plate on the engine gave the oil grade for various temperatures, and specified the amount of kerosene to dilute the oil with at various low temperatures.

You think getting parts for an old Lycoming is tough...
 
  • Like
Reactions: WDD
Curious - If you need 30 minutes of pre heat with hot air such as with a propane heater, what is the equivalent time with a Tanis to get the engine started? 1 hour? 2 hours?

Dana said:
At one point I had an antique (1940s vintage) Briggs & Stratton powered generator. The plate on the engine gave the oil grade for various temperatures, and specified the amount of kerosene to dilute the oil with at various low temperatures.

You think getting parts for an old Lycoming is tough...
Click to expand...

Growing up, dad bought a WWII surplus Briggs & Stratton generator. We had a small cabin we camped in, and he ran some lights and a couple of outlets. We'd plug the generator into one of the outlets using a male / male extension cord. Had a glass "bulb" in fuel line that let sediment settle to bottom of. Air cleaner was wire mesh you had to clean and oil. Of course if had a rope pull cord with a rope spinner that resembled a Ben-Hur chariot wheel of death.

Someone years later stole it. Sad on many levels, because it was a generator build to run radio equipment - it was DC output. DC is fine for incandescent bulbs. Whoever stole it destroyed whatever AC motor refrigerator or TV they plugged it into.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top